Last edit by: Dr Jabadski
Bilt Rewards Mastercard WikiPost
(10/7/23 Original author (Dr Jabadski) note: As I posted here on 9/9/23 “Considering I’ve been salivating about simple no-cost points-etizing (like monetizing) my condo payments for about 25 years, I see Bilt as a game changer.” I should have added “almost a Holy Grail” (a thing that is eagerly pursued or sought after). I successfully applied for a Bilt Mastercard 1 month ago thus I’m far from an expert. Both before and after approval I posted multiple questions many times on this thread and several other FTers were highly gracious and informative. Thought a WikiPost might save some others a good deal of time, effort and aggravation, at least in not repeating my questions and searching for the answers. I certainly hope the experts will edit and update this WikiPost as necessary. I’m also exercising Writer's Prerogative to officially coin the term “pointsetize”, like monetize “convert into or express in the form of currency”, to earn points from payments which otherwise would not earn points.)
Bilt Rewards Mastercard (Bilt MC) was first launched in mid-2021, in good part as a no fee way to charge and pointsetize rent payments. (Perhaps the only no fee way to pointsetize rent payments.) There are multiple reports of earning Bilt points for paying condominium monthly maintenance/common charges, sometimes even when the word “condo” or “condominium” is in the transaction description.
Bilt MC is a personal credit card, WF reports credit card information to the various credit bureaus and Bilt MC will count toward Chase 5/24.
This post and this post (both from 9/7/23) describe shutdown reports perhaps related to “micro transactions”, fluctuating rent payment amounts or multiple rent payments. This 10/11/23 post includes several references to Reddit user quotes about shutdowns and several Reddit Bilt quotes in response.
Linksto Bilt Rewards Terms of Use and Evolve Bank & Trust (Bilt Technologies) Customer Account Agreement. The Terms state “Bilt may make available to you a Bilt Rent Account (“Account”), which is a transaction bank account that can be used by you solely to make rent payments.” The Agreement states: “For the avoidance of doubt, the Account is a transaction bank account that can be used by you solely to make rent payments. For the avoidance of doubt, this is not an account that you may use to deposit or withdraw funds for any other purposes outside of rent payments.”
Bilt MC is a metal card weighing ~16 grams (comparisons: AmEx biz plat 18.5 gm, AmEx Gold 15 gm, Chase Sapphire Reserve 13 gm, traditional plastic card 5 gm).
Bilt Mastercard is issued and managed by Wells Fargo. Bilt Rewards is a separate website and app (which contains some credit card information but not as much as WF website).
Most reports are of instant approvals, Wells Fargo reconsideration phone number and experiences are not well documented. Reported initial Credit Limits vary $4,000 - $30,000 with higher limits more commonly reported. This post (9/1/23) describes one instance of a “Something went wrong” message upon application and the steps toward approval several days later.
In March/April 2025 Bilt initiated a new and different process for paying rent and HOA fees which requires “preauthorization” and/or "auto-pre-authorization" within 5 days of payment.Rent payments can be made in multiple different ways. Bilt will provide a (bank) routing number and account number. ACH rent payments can be sent (deposited) by Bilt or withdrawn by a managing company.
Bilt MC is shipped via trackable no-signature-required First Class mail in a small (4.5” x 6.5”) white box with unique packaging inside as pictured at the bottom of this post. As of Feb 2024 no reports of expedited shipping.
Reports on this thread starting in late November 2023 indicate this "quasi-SUB" may be offered randomly and/or only to some people, selection criteria unknown. This post may be the only report of being offered the quasi-SUB prior to Bilt Mastercard application, based on existing Bilt Rewards account. Bilt's “quasi-SUB" is offered via an email and a text message notification the same day as card receipt informing of 5x/5 days/max 50K (email quoted verbatim in this post). (Quasi* due to very short duration in contrast to many traditional SUBs of 3 month duration.) Please note this quasi-SUB maxs out at $12,500 (not $10,000) and tax payments will count. No reports yet of returns and their effect on quasi-SUB. (* “quasi-“ a combining form meaning “resembling,” “having some, but not all of the features of,” used in the formation of compound words: quasi-definition; quasi-monopoly; quasi-official; quasi-scientific.)
Newly earned Bilt points will display as “pending” until 5 transactions per statement cycle. After 5 transactions, points will post and become available shortly after a transaction, before statement date. The Bilt Rewards website has a “transaction counter” which disappears upon reaching 5.
Bilt points for linking partner programs (100 points each) and for adding a credit card to Bilt Wallet (100 points each for first 3) post immediately. Original author received 500 point bonus for first rent payment.
Bilt Rewards points are transferable at 1:1 usually within a few minutes to multiple different airline and hotel programs.
There’s discussion of the long term viability of Bilt with some of those posts linked at the bottom of this post after “BREAK”.
Bilt Status Tiers: Blue - anyone enrolled in Bilt Rewards with under 25,000 points, Silver - 25,000 points earned, Gold - 50,000 points earned, Platinum - 100,000 points earned. “Tier status earned at any point in a year remains active through the end of the following year.” “Earn Interest on Points” (Silver, Gold, Platinum Tiers) is minimal, discussed on this post and this post.
Bilt Points Quest Trivia was discontinued as of July 2024.Bilt Points Quest Trivia on the first of each month offers up to 250 points for correctly answering, within 10 seconds, 6 (out of 15-20) questions. Must get first 5 questions (10, 20, 30, 40, 50 points) correct to see the 6th “bonus” 100 point question. There’s often a Reddit thread with the Q & A. (Point Quest - October 2023 Answers) The lower half of this post has comments from a highly experienced “test taker” regarding memory, recall and “studying” for Points Quest Trivia.
Bilt Rent Free may also have been discontinued in 2024 or 2025.Bilt also has various “RentFree” games, available a few days prior to and/or on the 1st of the month, different people get different games. Could be a Family Feud style question with enough time to Google answers or a “Where's Wally?” (Bilt Brick) type of game or something else. Successful completion enters to be one of 3 people for whom Bilt pays their monthly rent (up to $2500).
List of Bilt’s Rent Day promotions going back to October 2022 at the bottom of the page here: DEALSPOINTS.
June 2024: Bottom of this post describes one person’s experience paying a significant assessment (and earning points) with Bilt MC, at this time (only 3 weeks later) no report of clawback or shutdown (based on using Bilt to pay rent more than once a month and/or for something other than rent/condo fees).
June 2024: Bottom of this post contains Bilt quotes regarding Bilt BiltProtect.
June 2024: Important post (and link) stating that WF is losing money every month on Bilt.
(10/7/23 Original author (Dr Jabadski) note: As I posted here on 9/9/23 “Considering I’ve been salivating about simple no-cost points-etizing (like monetizing) my condo payments for about 25 years, I see Bilt as a game changer.” I should have added “almost a Holy Grail” (a thing that is eagerly pursued or sought after). I successfully applied for a Bilt Mastercard 1 month ago thus I’m far from an expert. Both before and after approval I posted multiple questions many times on this thread and several other FTers were highly gracious and informative. Thought a WikiPost might save some others a good deal of time, effort and aggravation, at least in not repeating my questions and searching for the answers. I certainly hope the experts will edit and update this WikiPost as necessary. I’m also exercising Writer's Prerogative to officially coin the term “pointsetize”, like monetize “convert into or express in the form of currency”, to earn points from payments which otherwise would not earn points.)
Bilt Rewards Mastercard (Bilt MC) was first launched in mid-2021, in good part as a no fee way to charge and pointsetize rent payments. (Perhaps the only no fee way to pointsetize rent payments.) There are multiple reports of earning Bilt points for paying condominium monthly maintenance/common charges, sometimes even when the word “condo” or “condominium” is in the transaction description.
Bilt MC is a personal credit card, WF reports credit card information to the various credit bureaus and Bilt MC will count toward Chase 5/24.
This post and this post (both from 9/7/23) describe shutdown reports perhaps related to “micro transactions”, fluctuating rent payment amounts or multiple rent payments. This 10/11/23 post includes several references to Reddit user quotes about shutdowns and several Reddit Bilt quotes in response.
Links
Bilt MC is a metal card weighing ~16 grams (comparisons: AmEx biz plat 18.5 gm, AmEx Gold 15 gm, Chase Sapphire Reserve 13 gm, traditional plastic card 5 gm).
Bilt Mastercard is issued and managed by Wells Fargo. Bilt Rewards is a separate website and app (which contains some credit card information but not as much as WF website).
Most reports are of instant approvals, Wells Fargo reconsideration phone number and experiences are not well documented. Reported initial Credit Limits vary $4,000 - $30,000 with higher limits more commonly reported. This post (9/1/23) describes one instance of a “Something went wrong” message upon application and the steps toward approval several days later.
In March/April 2025 Bilt initiated a new and different process for paying rent and HOA fees which requires “preauthorization” and/or "auto-pre-authorization" within 5 days of payment.
Bilt MC is shipped via trackable no-signature-required First Class mail in a small (4.5” x 6.5”) white box with unique packaging inside as pictured at the bottom of this post. As of Feb 2024 no reports of expedited shipping.
Reports on this thread starting in late November 2023 indicate this "quasi-SUB" may be offered randomly and/or only to some people, selection criteria unknown. This post may be the only report of being offered the quasi-SUB prior to Bilt Mastercard application, based on existing Bilt Rewards account. Bilt's “quasi-SUB" is offered via an email and a text message notification the same day as card receipt informing of 5x/5 days/max 50K (email quoted verbatim in this post). (Quasi* due to very short duration in contrast to many traditional SUBs of 3 month duration.) Please note this quasi-SUB maxs out at $12,500 (not $10,000) and tax payments will count. No reports yet of returns and their effect on quasi-SUB. (* “quasi-“ a combining form meaning “resembling,” “having some, but not all of the features of,” used in the formation of compound words: quasi-definition; quasi-monopoly; quasi-official; quasi-scientific.)
Newly earned Bilt points will display as “pending” until 5 transactions per statement cycle. After 5 transactions, points will post and become available shortly after a transaction, before statement date. The Bilt Rewards website has a “transaction counter” which disappears upon reaching 5.
Bilt points for linking partner programs (100 points each) and for adding a credit card to Bilt Wallet (100 points each for first 3) post immediately. Original author received 500 point bonus for first rent payment.
Bilt Rewards points are transferable at 1:1 usually within a few minutes to multiple different airline and hotel programs.
There’s discussion of the long term viability of Bilt with some of those posts linked at the bottom of this post after “BREAK”.
Bilt Status Tiers: Blue - anyone enrolled in Bilt Rewards with under 25,000 points, Silver - 25,000 points earned, Gold - 50,000 points earned, Platinum - 100,000 points earned. “Tier status earned at any point in a year remains active through the end of the following year.” “Earn Interest on Points” (Silver, Gold, Platinum Tiers) is minimal, discussed on this post and this post.
Bilt Points Quest Trivia was discontinued as of July 2024.
Bilt Rent Free may also have been discontinued in 2024 or 2025.
List of Bilt’s Rent Day promotions going back to October 2022 at the bottom of the page here: DEALSPOINTS.
June 2024: Bottom of this post describes one person’s experience paying a significant assessment (and earning points) with Bilt MC, at this time (only 3 weeks later) no report of clawback or shutdown (based on using Bilt to pay rent more than once a month and/or for something other than rent/condo fees).
June 2024: Bottom of this post contains Bilt quotes regarding Bilt BiltProtect.
June 2024: Important post (and link) stating that WF is losing money every month on Bilt.
Bilt Mastercard
#1096




Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: PacNW (SEA)
Programs: AS, IHG and post-loyal
Posts: 614
If you spend 50k on rent, you aren’t incentivized to do anything else. If you don’t spend anything on rent, the spend fast track to status is exactly the same. The former method is actually harder than the latter method as only dining spend is 3x and rent day doesn’t help anymore. You really need to be spending near the rent cap (100k) to make Gold status easy to reach. I think this is their ideal customer though, someone in NYC spending 8.3k on rent…
#1097


Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 91
I'm curious how this Hilton promo effects current status? I have Diamond (qualified based on nights last year) and its set to expire March 2025. If I do the Bilt promo, does it knock me back to Gold until the end of 2024? Does it reduce the amount of nights needed to re-qualify for Diamond or does already being Diamond disqualify you from the fast track? (IIRC the T+C if the promo say you are fast tracked 14 nights to qualify for diamond before 12/31/24).
I missed out on the Hyatt promo last year so I'm curious how this works for current status holders.
I missed out on the Hyatt promo last year so I'm curious how this works for current status holders.
Also, the Bilt card is a World Elite Mastercard and qualifies for the Mastercard Luxury Hotels and Resorts program. It looks like you can get benefits similar to AMEX FHR through that program, even for hotels which you don't have status. Anyone try this? Did it go smoothly? Any caveats?
#1098
Join Date: Sep 2024
Posts: 1,752
Also, the Bilt card is a World Elite Mastercard and qualifies for the Mastercard Luxury Hotels and Resorts program. It looks like you can get benefits similar to AMEX FHR through that program, even for hotels which you don't have status. Anyone try this? Did it go smoothly? Any caveats?
#1099

Join Date: Jan 2023
Location: DCA, IAD
Programs: Hyatt Globalist; AA Plat. Pro.
Posts: 249
Hit the 1k point cap on Rent Day this month. It was surprisingly easy to do so, with one domestic economy roundtrip, an Adobe subscription renewal, and a couple of other purchases. Really hammers home that 1,000 points isn't a lot of points.
#1101


Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 517
Last month I posted a question about paying HOA frees on these forums and Dr Jabadski kindly directed me to this thread. I have now read through all this (a bit bleary eyed...). I have not yet applied for the Bilt MC since my husband might be getting new hearing aids (~$5K) so would like to time it with that JIC I get the quasi-SUB offer.
I tried doing a multi-quote but not sure if it will show up when I post this. So I am referencing the relevant posts here:
In post #492, Dr J indicates he provided the Bilt account # and routing # to his managing agent and they pulled the ACH payment.
In post #409, there is a link to an article explaining how to use eCheck from a portal.
Post #761 is a reddit post from Bilt Rewards regarding HOA payments.
Our HOA fee is $800 and our new assessment is an additional $600 for total $1400. Our management company allows payment in a variety of ways:
1. Pay by mailing check with coupons. 2 coupons - one for each part of the payment. Checks addressed to " <Condo Name> HOA"
2. Bank Bill Pay with one payment totaling $1400. Currently I pay my HOA fee from my Chase checking account's bill pay, where it is sent as "1 business day electronic" payment. New assessment hit May 1, so I paid this way this month.
3. ACH/Direct Debit - which would be for the full $1400. Just need to provide info to management company.
4. NEW option - by credit card and eCheck via a portal for our management company from cincwebaxis.com. The CC payment carries a 3.25% fee and the eCheck fee is $1.99.. Can set this up online.
So options 3 or 4 via eCheck would be best. My concern is that these payments are listed as <Condo Name> HOA, which I suppose mgt company might use in option 3. Just don't want any problems, or want to waste a 5/24 slot, have another hard pull, etc.
Valid or unwarranted concern? Would option 4 be better ("safer") than option 3, despite the fee? TIA
I tried doing a multi-quote but not sure if it will show up when I post this. So I am referencing the relevant posts here:
In post #492, Dr J indicates he provided the Bilt account # and routing # to his managing agent and they pulled the ACH payment.
In post #409, there is a link to an article explaining how to use eCheck from a portal.
Post #761 is a reddit post from Bilt Rewards regarding HOA payments.
Our HOA fee is $800 and our new assessment is an additional $600 for total $1400. Our management company allows payment in a variety of ways:
1. Pay by mailing check with coupons. 2 coupons - one for each part of the payment. Checks addressed to " <Condo Name> HOA"
2. Bank Bill Pay with one payment totaling $1400. Currently I pay my HOA fee from my Chase checking account's bill pay, where it is sent as "1 business day electronic" payment. New assessment hit May 1, so I paid this way this month.
3. ACH/Direct Debit - which would be for the full $1400. Just need to provide info to management company.
4. NEW option - by credit card and eCheck via a portal for our management company from cincwebaxis.com. The CC payment carries a 3.25% fee and the eCheck fee is $1.99.. Can set this up online.
So options 3 or 4 via eCheck would be best. My concern is that these payments are listed as <Condo Name> HOA, which I suppose mgt company might use in option 3. Just don't want any problems, or want to waste a 5/24 slot, have another hard pull, etc.
Valid or unwarranted concern? Would option 4 be better ("safer") than option 3, despite the fee? TIA
I have been thinking of getting the Bilt Mastercard for some time now and today I received the following from the management company from my HOA:
Owners,
As an update Vantaca has removed their $1.99 fee for Vantaca Pay. So you have the following free options to pay your monthly maintenance fee:
1- ACH- Auto debit click on the ENROLL button, which is located on your dashboard and set up auto payment.
2- Vantaca Pay Enables you to make one time payments and auto pay for free using your acct/routing number.
3- P.O.Box (lockbox). You can send your payment through your own bank by mailing the check made out to your association to the address below.
So, I am pretty sure that number 3 is a no-go, but I can't tell between choice #1 or #2 as to which would be the better option should I get the Bilt WF MC as which choice should I apply the assigned routing number they would give me. Any ideas and if anyone has used Vantaca before?
I did research that they do take credit cards for a 3% fee thru some association with Pacific Western or something, but having read this thread, I know enough that whichever choice one were to make, you never want to put your Bilt MC credit card numbers down; you instead use the assigned routing numbers associated with your Bilt Rewards MC.
Can anyone clarify which choice I should designate for payment via the routing numbers that I will obtain should I be approved for the Bilt MC?
Many thanks!
#1102




Join Date: Jan 2020
Programs: SQ Gold, Marriott Lifetime Platinum, Caesars Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Atmos Silver, IHG Platinum
Posts: 2,228
Bilt does mail checks https://support.biltrewards.com/hc/e...-rent-by-check
I don't really know what the difference is between 1 and 2 (not familiar with Vantaca) but I would just do option 1 ACH with the account and routing bank numbers from the Bilt MC.
I don't really know what the difference is between 1 and 2 (not familiar with Vantaca) but I would just do option 1 ACH with the account and routing bank numbers from the Bilt MC.
Last edited by gudugan; Jan 21, 2025 at 11:28 am
#1103




Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: NYC suburbs
Programs: UA LT Gold 1.2MM (BIS), AA LT Plat (SUBs, BD/Bask), Hilton Dia (CC), Hyatt Glob (BIB), et. al.
Posts: 4,589
Upon approval, even before you receive the MC, Bilt will tell you your “Bilt Rent Account” account and routing numbers. Give those numbers (with authorization) to Management company, they will a monthly ACH pull for HOA fees, for all they know it’s coming from a bank account, thus no fees. Posts as a charge on your Bilt MC a day later, Bilt reward points post that same day (if you have 4 other charges in the billing period).
Last edited by Dr Jabadski; Jan 22, 2025 at 6:54 am Reason: typo correction
#1104


Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 517
To me it’s an absolute no brainer, #3.
Upon approval, even before you receive the MC, Bilt will tell you your “Bilt Rent Account” account and routing numbers. Give those numbers (with authorization) to Management company, they will a monthly ACH pull for HOA fees, for all they know it’s coming from a bank account, thus no fees. Posts as a charge on your Bilt MC a day later, Bilt reward points post that same day (if you have 4 other charges in the billing period).
Upon approval, even before you receive the MC, Bilt will tell you your “Bilt Rent Account” account and routing numbers. Give those numbers (with authorization) to Management company, they will a monthly ACH pull for HOA fees, for all they know it’s coming from a bank account, thus no fees. Posts as a charge on your Bilt MC a day later, Bilt reward points post that same day (if you have 4 other charges in the billing period).
Dr. J -- I understand that #3 was the no brainer choice for the Mice, but I tend to agree with gudugan, that I should probably choose #1 of my choices, which is the ACH pull. Don't you?
By the way, in One Mile at a Time, he showed a slot for the "Bank name."
What should I input for that? Bilt Bank? Wells Fargo Bank?
At a loss as to how to classify the routing numbers!
#1105


Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 517
Bilt does mail checks https://support.biltrewards.com/hc/e...-rent-by-check
I don't really know what the difference is between 1 and 2 (not familiar with Vantaca) but I would just do option 1 ACH with the account and routing bank numbers from the Bilt MC.
I don't really know what the difference is between 1 and 2 (not familiar with Vantaca) but I would just do option 1 ACH with the account and routing bank numbers from the Bilt MC.
Many thanks for your input!
#1106




Join Date: Jan 2020
Programs: SQ Gold, Marriott Lifetime Platinum, Caesars Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Atmos Silver, IHG Platinum
Posts: 2,228
I think Dr J and I were agreeing with different posts - ACH pull is the way to go
My routing number is XXXXXX768 which corresponds to EVOLVE BANK AND TRUST
The routing number corresponds to a specific bank (and often location), if you google it, it will show the details
My routing number is XXXXXX768 which corresponds to EVOLVE BANK AND TRUST
The routing number corresponds to a specific bank (and often location), if you google it, it will show the details
Last edited by gudugan; Jan 22, 2025 at 7:32 pm
#1107




Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: NYC suburbs
Programs: UA LT Gold 1.2MM (BIS), AA LT Plat (SUBs, BD/Bask), Hilton Dia (CC), Hyatt Glob (BIB), et. al.
Posts: 4,589
#3 in the second quote in your recent post (#1101) seems to be the same as #1 in your first quote, ACH pull. I cannot address Vantaca procedures. Regardless, ACH pull by management company is so overwhelmingly simple it’s hard to imagine anything easier.
Same for many Bilt MC cardholders. Might be prudent to not post account and/or routing numbers.
You might be putting the cart before the horse* and possibly driving off the bridge before you even get to the bridge*. Once you get the card, and the bank routing and your account numbers, it should all be more clear.
All of it, including the questions in the few posts immediately above, is discussed in explicit detail in the outstanding Wiki at the top of page 1 of this thread, for which a highly gracious FTer spent a great deal of time and energy, and has withstood the test of time having been written ~15 months ago with only occasional minor edits since, most recently 7 months ago
.
(* "’Putting the cart before the horse’ is an idiom that means doing something in the wrong order.”)
(* "’We'll cross that bridge when we get to it’ is an idiom that means to not worry about a problem until it actually happens. It's a way of saying that you'll deal with a challenge when it arises, instead of worrying about it in advance.”)
All of it, including the questions in the few posts immediately above, is discussed in explicit detail in the outstanding Wiki at the top of page 1 of this thread, for which a highly gracious FTer spent a great deal of time and energy, and has withstood the test of time having been written ~15 months ago with only occasional minor edits since, most recently 7 months ago
.
… Links to Bilt Rewards Terms of Use and Evolve Bank & Trust (Bilt Technologies) Customer Account Agreement. The Terms state “Bilt may make available to you a Bilt Rent Account (“Account”), which is a transaction bank account that can be used by you solely to make rent payments.” The Agreement states: “For the avoidance of doubt, the Account is a transaction bank account that can be used by you solely to make rent payments. For the avoidance of doubt, this is not an account that you may use to deposit or withdraw funds for any other purposes outside of rent payments.”
…
Rent payments can be made in multiple different ways. Bilt will provide a (bank) routing number and account number. ACH rent payments can be sent (deposited) by Bilt or withdrawn by a managing company. …
…
Rent payments can be made in multiple different ways. Bilt will provide a (bank) routing number and account number. ACH rent payments can be sent (deposited) by Bilt or withdrawn by a managing company. …
(* "’We'll cross that bridge when we get to it’ is an idiom that means to not worry about a problem until it actually happens. It's a way of saying that you'll deal with a challenge when it arises, instead of worrying about it in advance.”)
Last edited by Dr Jabadski; Jan 22, 2025 at 10:00 pm Reason: quoted numbers were edited
#1109




Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,958
Routing numbers are common to many account holders.
However, I just thought about this... What happens in the event of a fraudulent transaction using your ACH information with Bilt? It goes against your credit line for the credit card, so I imagine the same provisions apply as if it were a credit card transaction, such as a limit of $50? ($0 liability might not be applicable since the transaction doesn't go over the Mastercard network.)
However, I just thought about this... What happens in the event of a fraudulent transaction using your ACH information with Bilt? It goes against your credit line for the credit card, so I imagine the same provisions apply as if it were a credit card transaction, such as a limit of $50? ($0 liability might not be applicable since the transaction doesn't go over the Mastercard network.)
#1110


Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 517
Thank you all for your input.
Did not recall seeing the Evolve Bank discussion in earlier posts, although I did read them.......
Did not recall seeing the Evolve Bank discussion in earlier posts, although I did read them.......



