Mar 11, 2020, 10:13 am
Last edit by: Ocn Vw 1K
In order to reduce noise in the Coronavirus / Covid-19 : general fact-based reporting thread, and to create a central place to invite any member to ask a basic question about the impact of COVID-19 on travel, your moderators have decided to open this separate "lounge" thread for related discussion that isn't strictly fact-based reporting.
Any member who can provide a constructive, helpful answer to a question; or post constructively in reply to a member's point-of-view, is welcome to post.
All FT rules apply, including avoiding personalized, snarky, political, other off-topic, commercial, and repeatedly disruptive content.
Discussion of general economic impacts of Covid-19 belongs in the OMNI forum, not here.
Discussion and critique of political/government actions to aid the economy or which is far more political than related to COVID-19 is for the OMNI/PR forum, not here.
This is a protocol for posting adopted by the forum Moderator team:Please follow this protocol, based on FlyerTalk Rules and long-standing FlyerTalk best practices. Doing so will help keep the thread open, and allow our moderator team to aid members, rather than having to resort to discipline.
•Constructive, respectful posts, views, opinions, questions, and replies, related to the topic are welcome. Avoid commenting on members personally, or posting off-topic or political messages.
•While respectful disagreement of a posted view is allowed, don’t call-out posters to prove their points. FlyerTalk has never required discussion standards at the level of a Ph.D. dissertation defense, or a trial court witness cross-examination.
•After a reasonable exchange of views on a point, please yield the floor so that others may bring up different topics, questions or points.
•Especially important in this time of pandemic, when normal life and travel have been upended: please take regular breaks from the thread.
Please stay healthy,
your FT Coronavirus and Travel Moderator Team.
Any member who can provide a constructive, helpful answer to a question; or post constructively in reply to a member's point-of-view, is welcome to post.
All FT rules apply, including avoiding personalized, snarky, political, other off-topic, commercial, and repeatedly disruptive content.
Discussion of general economic impacts of Covid-19 belongs in the OMNI forum, not here.
Discussion and critique of political/government actions to aid the economy or which is far more political than related to COVID-19 is for the OMNI/PR forum, not here.
This is a protocol for posting adopted by the forum Moderator team:Please follow this protocol, based on FlyerTalk Rules and long-standing FlyerTalk best practices. Doing so will help keep the thread open, and allow our moderator team to aid members, rather than having to resort to discipline.
•Constructive, respectful posts, views, opinions, questions, and replies, related to the topic are welcome. Avoid commenting on members personally, or posting off-topic or political messages.
•While respectful disagreement of a posted view is allowed, don’t call-out posters to prove their points. FlyerTalk has never required discussion standards at the level of a Ph.D. dissertation defense, or a trial court witness cross-examination.
•After a reasonable exchange of views on a point, please yield the floor so that others may bring up different topics, questions or points.
•Especially important in this time of pandemic, when normal life and travel have been upended: please take regular breaks from the thread.
Please stay healthy,
your FT Coronavirus and Travel Moderator Team.
COVID-19: Lounge thread for thoughts, concerns and questions
Mar 21, 2020, 8:16 pm
#1246
FlyerTalk Evangelist
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no tests unless you're running a fever here in western North Carolina, either.
same happening in my small town. I have symptoms (headache for about a week now--I never get headaches--chills, fatigue, occasional dry cough and chest pressure/discomfort) but no fever, and there will be no test for me. called my doc, not possible to get a test there, they don't have any tests, although the nurse agreed it'd be a good idea if I could get one. frankly, blessedly, my symptoms are minor, and if this were a different time, I'd suck it up and go on about my business, with some minor modifications. but it would be nice to know if this is just a coincidentally timed weird cold, or the novel coronavirus...but THERE ARE NO TESTS.
...
local doctor's offices don't have tests, I'm not famous and without a fever I'll just never know.
USA! USA!
same happening in my small town. I have symptoms (headache for about a week now--I never get headaches--chills, fatigue, occasional dry cough and chest pressure/discomfort) but no fever, and there will be no test for me. called my doc, not possible to get a test there, they don't have any tests, although the nurse agreed it'd be a good idea if I could get one. frankly, blessedly, my symptoms are minor, and if this were a different time, I'd suck it up and go on about my business, with some minor modifications. but it would be nice to know if this is just a coincidentally timed weird cold, or the novel coronavirus...but THERE ARE NO TESTS.
...
local doctor's offices don't have tests, I'm not famous and without a fever I'll just never know.
USA! USA!
i just read about the TF guidelines for testing:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/21/polit...est/index.html
As officials work to increase the availability of the tests, they've also sought to make clear in what cases people should seek them.
Officials have urged Americans to use discretion before seeking a coronavirus test, advising them to be administered to people who are symptomatic and not for those who do not show signs that they could be infected with the disease.
"We want to remind Americans as Dr. Fauci will emphasize in a moment, if you don't have symptoms, don't do a test," the vice president said Saturday." It is another way that the American people can make sure that we are preserving the resources that our health care workers need to administer and support those who are dealing with the coronavirus and other illnesses."Pence, who previously said it wasn't yet necessary for him to be tested, said Saturday that, given his position in the White House, he and his wife Karen would be tested for the coronavirus after a staff member in his office tested positive for the virus this week.
Officials have urged Americans to use discretion before seeking a coronavirus test, advising them to be administered to people who are symptomatic and not for those who do not show signs that they could be infected with the disease.
"We want to remind Americans as Dr. Fauci will emphasize in a moment, if you don't have symptoms, don't do a test," the vice president said Saturday." It is another way that the American people can make sure that we are preserving the resources that our health care workers need to administer and support those who are dealing with the coronavirus and other illnesses."Pence, who previously said it wasn't yet necessary for him to be tested, said Saturday that, given his position in the White House, he and his wife Karen would be tested for the coronavirus after a staff member in his office tested positive for the virus this week.
As an amateur infectious disease specialist sans degree (but with nearly two months of FT training), I agree that not everyone in the country should run to get a test. There aren’t 330,000,000 of them. I have no desire to get a swab shoved up my nose, and I work “hard” (sitting on the couch, mostly) to stay away from people.
But we know that not every infected person is symptomatic, so making symptoms a hard requirement seems odd. Known exposure to a positive patient should also count.
And don’t test celebrities while symptomatic people like karenkay still cannot get a test.
Last edited by notquiteaff; Mar 21, 2020 at 8:25 pm
Mar 21, 2020, 9:39 pm
#1247
Join Date: Dec 2014
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As an amateur infectious disease specialist sans degree (but with nearly two months of FT training), I agree that not everyone in the country should run to get a test. There aren’t 330,000,000 of them. I have no desire to get a swab shoved up my nose, and I work “hard” (sitting on the couch, mostly) to stay away from people.
But we know that not every infected person is symptomatic, so making symptoms a hard requirement seems odd. Known exposure to a positive patient should also count.
And don’t test celebrities while symptomatic people like karenkay still cannot get a test.
But we know that not every infected person is symptomatic, so making symptoms a hard requirement seems odd. Known exposure to a positive patient should also count.
And don’t test celebrities while symptomatic people like karenkay still cannot get a test.
I do agree that testing should only be performed for a valid reason and not just because ‘I think I need one’. So let’s ask a few questions that the media doesn’t want to ask or if asked report on.
How many total test units have been used? Not just CDC approved units.
How many positive tests are there?
How many positives are hospitalized?
How many of those hospitalized have been released?
How many of those hospitalized were transferred to the ICU?
How many of those in the ICU have been released?
Some of these questions have been asked but the information is scattered across the various media outlets.
These are just a few starter questions.
As for unnecessary testing. I am the proud(?) owner of a failed (negative) test. (and like most things in life was valid until I left the room) Required because I happened to be a In a hospital cardiac cath lab and a frequent flyer. Even though I’m over 65 and in good health they suggested I take it.
Mar 22, 2020, 1:08 am
#1248
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Seattle
Programs: AS MVP100K, Hilton Diamond, IHG Gold
Posts: 3,215
Im worried about the economic impact this is going to have on the lower to middle class. How are they suppose to get by when they’re already going paycheck to paycheck and now everything is shut down so people aren’t getting paid.
Mar 22, 2020, 1:49 am
#1249
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 19,803
Mar 22, 2020, 2:30 am
#1251
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
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Posts: 102,095
I am generally against giving the governments even more powerful laws than are already in place, and I am not surprised to see government power grabs being attempted and taken that use this public health emergency as an excuse or rationale for doing so. This is no exception. In every place where I’ve lived, governments already had a plethora of laws and other tools to limit people during emergency situations. New ones being proposed or passed should be viewed with extreme skepticism.
Sweden did institute some measures and will implement some more, but the government is late in the game and has been dragging their feet on mandating changes. But the pressure is ramping up to change, and the growing death count from this in the country will probably add to that pressure. Within ten days, the numbers could be rather telling in one way or the other.
The curious savage in me hopes Sweden will not implement any measures and we will see the true fatality rate among a population with a typical European age distribution, with a totally overwhelmed health care, but civilized otherwise.
Africa won't do here - their populations are too young.
Africa won't do here - their populations are too young.
Last edited by GUWonder; Mar 22, 2020 at 2:42 am
Mar 22, 2020, 2:58 am
#1252
Moderator, El Al and Marriott Bonvoy, FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2005
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What part of no overseas travel wasn't clear I wonder? Take the current situation and note that the peak doesn't hit Canada for the next 30-40 days according to the government. I would not be expecting to make this trip. Are there not other ways to not lose a lot of business? I am not expecting to be able to make trips scheduled for August with more than a 20% possibility TBH. I feel your pain. I had to close my 33 year old business yesterday and lay off all 24 staff . Losing business is the least of my worries at present.
Mar 22, 2020, 4:45 am
#1253
Join Date: May 2010
Location: AVP & PEK
Programs: UA 1K 1.9MM
Posts: 6,357
How many lives are being saved??
I've asked this before (then about China), but I am still wondering how many people are NOT dying because of COVID-19.
With people practicing social distancing, not working, and not traveling, "normal" deaths from influenza, car accidents, work related accidents, etc. should be on the decline, no?
Wondering if anyone is tracking THAT statistic?
I've asked this before (then about China), but I am still wondering how many people are NOT dying because of COVID-19.
With people practicing social distancing, not working, and not traveling, "normal" deaths from influenza, car accidents, work related accidents, etc. should be on the decline, no?
Wondering if anyone is tracking THAT statistic?
Mar 22, 2020, 4:46 am
#1254
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: New Zealand (when I'm home!)
Programs: Air NZ Elite
Posts: 1,218
I am just so confused. We have countries that have done a stellar job of containing the virus (China, Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan) that all did similar but slightly different things, and the Western countries of the world are just completely ignoring them, going on about our lives, until we literally have to shut down entire cities and major economic hubs. Why didn't the West try to replicate and copy a literal formula for success?
Mar 22, 2020, 4:51 am
#1255
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 765
How many lives are being saved??
I've asked this before (then about China), but I am still wondering how many people are NOT dying because of COVID-19.
With people practicing social distancing, not working, and not traveling, "normal" deaths from influenza, car accidents, work related accidents, etc. should be on the decline, no?
Wondering if anyone is tracking THAT statistic?
I've asked this before (then about China), but I am still wondering how many people are NOT dying because of COVID-19.
With people practicing social distancing, not working, and not traveling, "normal" deaths from influenza, car accidents, work related accidents, etc. should be on the decline, no?
Wondering if anyone is tracking THAT statistic?
Mar 22, 2020, 4:52 am
#1256
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 765
I am just so confused. We have countries that have done a stellar job of containing the virus (China, Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan) that all did similar but slightly different things, and the Western countries of the world are just completely ignoring them, going on about our lives, until we literally have to shut down entire cities and major economic hubs. Why didn't the West try to replicate and copy a literal formula for success?
I take issue with "literally have to shut down entire cities". We don't have to. We're making a choice to do so, and not even based on much evidence or data. (If you haven't already, read the article by the Stanford professor I linked to in my previous post above.)
Mar 22, 2020, 4:56 am
#1257
Join Date: May 2010
Location: AVP & PEK
Programs: UA 1K 1.9MM
Posts: 6,357
I am just so confused. We have countries that have done a stellar job of containing the virus (China, Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan) that all did similar but slightly different things, and the Western countries of the world are just completely ignoring them, going on about our lives, until we literally have to shut down entire cities and major economic hubs. Why didn't the West try to replicate and copy a literal formula for success?
We all saw what was going on "over there"....and then just let it all happen to us anyway. At the first sign of this being a virus outbreak when it was obvious this will turn into a pandemic (say mid to end of January), we should have started mass-production of PPE and distributed them to medical facilities, then the public and made sure everyone understood how to wear them.
Where I live (NEPA), it's still pretty much business as usual to this day, yet I was wearing a N99 mask already back in January overseas.
Mar 22, 2020, 5:11 am
#1258
Join Date: May 2010
Location: AVP & PEK
Programs: UA 1K 1.9MM
Posts: 6,357
This Stanford professor thinks it's possible that more lives will be saved from influenza this year than from Covid-19, since the isolation will prevent the spread of that. When you add in the other factors I think it's almost a certainty, but the lives that are lost to economic damage will probably tip the scales the other way
I am not so much concerned about COVID-19 but a potential future outbreak of another, deadlier virus.
If it's within the next 10 years, that professor's final comment will come back to haunt us all...in a terrible way. Can't copy it here, but basically: if it happens again we won't believe public health officials, the media, nor scientists.
Mar 22, 2020, 5:14 am
#1259
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 331
Hopefully they have been following the situation in the neighbouring country: Finnish ski resorts have also been running so far and although foreign tourists are now gone, there has been plenty of Finns enjoying the winter in the north. Today it was announced that this has meant that there has been few cases of COVID-19 from ski resorts and among those infected was some orthopedics who had held a conference at Levi. Due to this information and hints that maybe the people at resorts may not follow the advice to maintain the distance from each other, the resorts have now decided to end the season, although only next Friday.
Mar 22, 2020, 5:43 am
#1260
Moderator, El Al and Marriott Bonvoy, FlyerTalk Evangelist
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This Stanford professor thinks it's possible that more lives will be saved from influenza this year than from Covid-19, since the isolation will prevent the spread of that. When you add in the other factors I think it's almost a certainty, but the lives that are lost to economic damage will probably tip the scales the other way