View Poll Results: Q: What is your view on FlyerTalk implementing a "Helpful" button feature?
Support
433
59.72%
Oppose
275
37.93%
No opinion
17
2.34%
Voters: 725. You may not vote on this poll
Jan 12, 2015, 9:07 pm
Last edit by: Prospero
Signed in members with 90 days / 90 posts can edit this Wikipost; wiki contents may be printed by using the 
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Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people wont take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
(lower right wiki corner)Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people wont take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
"Like" Button?
Jan 13, 2015 | 1:38 pm
#586
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: May 2002
Location: YEG
Programs: HH Silver
Posts: 57,028
I'm not convinced this is actually something FT needs this far along the line regardless of what others sites do on the topic. Just MHO.
Jan 13, 2015 | 2:00 pm
#587
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: CLE
Programs: UA GS, HH Diamond
Posts: 33
As a newbie I can share that I think the moderators do an excellent job of organizing the posts well enough that the truly useful posts are easy to spot.
While being able to search or sort by "most helpful" votes might be interesting, it probably won't make my ability to use the FT any more valuable.
While being able to search or sort by "most helpful" votes might be interesting, it probably won't make my ability to use the FT any more valuable.
Jan 13, 2015 | 2:10 pm
#588
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,077
That said, this is FT -- where playing games even with reputation features for dissing FT member birthdays has had a history, a history disbelieved at first but confirmed nonetheless. Even the RBPs have been gamed on FT.
Have more FT members voted for this poll now than did in at least one of the last four TB general elections? Yes. At least we have more member engagement with TB in some form.
Last edited by GUWonder; Jan 13, 2015 at 2:19 pm
Jan 13, 2015 | 2:37 pm
#589
Moderator: Hilton Honors forums
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Marietta, Georgia, United States
Posts: 25,432
I figure I have a chance of one in 365 that today is your birthday. Next year, my chances are reduced even further to one in 366...
Thank you for pointing that out...
Jan 13, 2015 | 2:47 pm
#590
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Either at the shooting range or anywhere good beer can be found...
Posts: 52,783
I'm less confident as I can see on some forums and threads a snarky reply to a new member earning a bunch of 'helpful' votes even though the post wasn't helpful at all but quite the opposite. Others may agree, for example, that new members should dig for rather than be spoon fed answers and so could use the tool as a sign of agreement with the snark rather than its intended purpose.
I'm not convinced this is actually something FT needs this far along the line regardless of what others sites do on the topic. Just MHO.
I'm not convinced this is actually something FT needs this far along the line regardless of what others sites do on the topic. Just MHO.
Jan 13, 2015 | 2:53 pm
#591
In Memoriam, FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Durham, NC (RDU/GSO/CLT)
Programs: AA EXP/MM, DL GM, UA Platinum, HH DIA, Hyatt Explorist, IHG Platinum, Marriott Titanium, Hertz PC
Posts: 33,856
Jan 13, 2015 | 3:42 pm
#592
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Either at the shooting range or anywhere good beer can be found...
Posts: 52,783
Jan 13, 2015 | 3:54 pm
#593
Moderator: American AAdvantage
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NorCal - SMF area
Programs: AA LT EXP; HH LT Diamond, Matre-plongeur des Muccis
Posts: 62,948
Some interesting questions have been posed.
The poll can not be gamed in some of the ways implied; though lobbying and encouraging or discouraging other members can certainly be done (e.g. using signatures), it's legitimate.
The poll is entirely anonymous when it is set up to be anonymous, as this one is. Members, including Moderators, can not see who voted.
The parameters of the poll itself was established by the TalkBoard's request to the Moderators through their elected leader, iirc.
The wiki contains a POV summation and points pro and con. Any member with 90 days and 90 posts can edit a wikipost, so other pro or con points can be added. (Changes are documented always, so that's a check on any disruptive actions that potentially could be carried out.)
This poll will close on Jan 17, 15 at 8:14 am so perhaps discussing the actual topic is more of use to TalkBoard members and others than discussing how a poll works or if it can be gamed. I'm sure it could be, but the chances are nearly infinitesimally small.
The poll can not be gamed in some of the ways implied; though lobbying and encouraging or discouraging other members can certainly be done (e.g. using signatures), it's legitimate.
The poll is entirely anonymous when it is set up to be anonymous, as this one is. Members, including Moderators, can not see who voted.
The parameters of the poll itself was established by the TalkBoard's request to the Moderators through their elected leader, iirc.
The wiki contains a POV summation and points pro and con. Any member with 90 days and 90 posts can edit a wikipost, so other pro or con points can be added. (Changes are documented always, so that's a check on any disruptive actions that potentially could be carried out.)
This poll will close on Jan 17, 15 at 8:14 am so perhaps discussing the actual topic is more of use to TalkBoard members and others than discussing how a poll works or if it can be gamed. I'm sure it could be, but the chances are nearly infinitesimally small.
Last edited by JDiver; Jan 13, 2015 at 4:02 pm
Jan 13, 2015 | 4:10 pm
#594
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 729
If there is to be such a button, please make sure that it conveys Like, not Helpful. People will Like what they agree with, regardless of the merit of the post.
I personally do not care for either sort of button because there is the risk that a high number of Likes for a given post will dissuade people from posting alternative views.
I personally do not care for either sort of button because there is the risk that a high number of Likes for a given post will dissuade people from posting alternative views.
Jan 13, 2015 | 4:33 pm
#595
In Memoriam, FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Durham, NC (RDU/GSO/CLT)
Programs: AA EXP/MM, DL GM, UA Platinum, HH DIA, Hyatt Explorist, IHG Platinum, Marriott Titanium, Hertz PC
Posts: 33,856
I have no issue with those opposed to this button, I'm leaning towards voting no on it. I have issue with people who are furthering this load of bunk that the reason the poll didn't go the way they wanted is a vast conspiracy leading to the gaming of the system. It's so insulting to me as a Flyertalker and TalkBoard member.
Jan 13, 2015 | 8:54 pm
#596
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: SEA
Programs: AS MVPG, MGM Rewards Gold, Hhonors ???, National Executive
Posts: 2,708
That said, no forum would support ANY sort of action that can remotely discourage noobs. More members == more pageviews == more $$$.
An alternative: Perhaps until that person is an "established" member (like post count 100...or whatever it is to get into Omni, like that's some sort of reward), votes on their posts are ignored. Not ideal. You'd probably still have to count their votes (+ or -), because otherwise they won't feel like their input matters in any way.
Great example of the confusing messages that likes/dislikes send.I'm not convinced by claims that the user feedback tool will be gamed. As far as I have read there's no benefit to be gained by using the tool insincerely.
im not convinced that the tool will create or encourage cliquey behaviour although it may highlight existing cliquey behaviour
im not convinced that the tool will create or encourage cliquey behaviour although it may highlight existing cliquey behaviour
A few examples:
http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/fatwallet/902629/
http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/fatwallet/903976/
http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/off-topic/326900/
http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/fatwallet/1286031/
http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/fatwallet/1243033/
Suggestion: Go sign up as a member. Tell the community you're a mod at another site that's considering adding voting. See the sort of responses you get.
Moderators don't organize posts. Can you clarify what you're referring to?
Jan 13, 2015 | 9:15 pm
#597
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: HIO
Programs: AS MVPG 75K (Pure AS)
Posts: 194
FWIW, I did read the wiki before voting "yes." I didn't just join FT to vote, I wasn't lobbied, and (fortunate for FT) I'm not on the TB. And since voting, I've read the last ~200 posts or so.
I have to agree with the sentiments expressed by some that this seems a disproportionate amount of angst for what in other communities might be considered a minor, ancillary feature. I believe, though, that a large degree of that concern is because we all value FT and want it to continue to be great and even get better.
Although mentioned in the wiki, my reason for wanting a "Like" wasn't substantively mentioned in the last 200 posts - and it's from the perspective of the giver, not the recipient. Some comments here have focused on gaming and on people trying to accrue "Likes." I'm sure that's a possibility and if people feel like they want to measure their online self-worth that way, that's an issue that won't be addressed through any single discussion-forum feature.
Rather, I don't expect that I'd be accruing lots of "Likes" from my posts - I don't post very often and when I do, it's usually either asking a question or going for a cheap laugh - sadly, not usually providing content that's terribly insightful or helpful. My interest in having this feature is because almost every time I dive into a new thread across FT, I find posts that are great - they're particularly clever, they're really helpful, or (as in this thread) handle some nasty comments with tremendous patience and aplomb.
Most of the time, I'm not going to clutter a thread with a +1. The idea of a "Like" would give me a way to innocuously recognize someone's efforts on a good post. It's an electronic token of appreciation.
Someone chooses to game it and artificially get their "Like" count up on a specific post or posts? Seems like that will be self-policing pretty fast. If I see that someone's posts are always heavily Liked when their content doesn't (IMHO) warrant it, then I'll start to discount that person's posts. And in any event, the stakes on this seem pretty low.
All that having been said, in the pantheon of features that could enhance FT, this one is in the "nice-to-have" category for me. Despite its length and occasional vitriol, I do appreciate this thread and, more generally, the opportunity to provide input on the direction of FT.
I have to agree with the sentiments expressed by some that this seems a disproportionate amount of angst for what in other communities might be considered a minor, ancillary feature. I believe, though, that a large degree of that concern is because we all value FT and want it to continue to be great and even get better.
Although mentioned in the wiki, my reason for wanting a "Like" wasn't substantively mentioned in the last 200 posts - and it's from the perspective of the giver, not the recipient. Some comments here have focused on gaming and on people trying to accrue "Likes." I'm sure that's a possibility and if people feel like they want to measure their online self-worth that way, that's an issue that won't be addressed through any single discussion-forum feature.
Rather, I don't expect that I'd be accruing lots of "Likes" from my posts - I don't post very often and when I do, it's usually either asking a question or going for a cheap laugh - sadly, not usually providing content that's terribly insightful or helpful. My interest in having this feature is because almost every time I dive into a new thread across FT, I find posts that are great - they're particularly clever, they're really helpful, or (as in this thread) handle some nasty comments with tremendous patience and aplomb.
Most of the time, I'm not going to clutter a thread with a +1. The idea of a "Like" would give me a way to innocuously recognize someone's efforts on a good post. It's an electronic token of appreciation.
Someone chooses to game it and artificially get their "Like" count up on a specific post or posts? Seems like that will be self-policing pretty fast. If I see that someone's posts are always heavily Liked when their content doesn't (IMHO) warrant it, then I'll start to discount that person's posts. And in any event, the stakes on this seem pretty low.
All that having been said, in the pantheon of features that could enhance FT, this one is in the "nice-to-have" category for me. Despite its length and occasional vitriol, I do appreciate this thread and, more generally, the opportunity to provide input on the direction of FT.
Jan 13, 2015 | 9:44 pm
#598
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: in the vicinity of SFO
Programs: AA 2MM (LT-PLT, PPro for this year)
Posts: 19,784
If the idea here is to go full-hog to that sort of system, I agree that it's not a good fit for FT, and probably not a good idea. We don't really do "directory" content of that sort, except maybe on the Mileage Run/Hotel Deals forums and CC.
I think the main question is "what's the intent of this feature, and how will it be used?" -- my own preference is for a limited form, basically to improve signal to noise of +1 posts, and improve engagement for people who don't post a lot. The more elaborate it gets, the less I support it; in particular, since we're not screening things (well, maybe a bit on the MR/Hotel deals, but I rarely use those) there's absolutely no benefit to down-voting.
Jan 13, 2015 | 10:13 pm
#599
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: SEA
Programs: AS MVPG, MGM Rewards Gold, Hhonors ???, National Executive
Posts: 2,708
Someone chooses to game it and artificially get their "Like" count up on a specific post or posts? Seems like that will be self-policing pretty fast. If I see that someone's posts are always heavily Liked when their content doesn't (IMHO) warrant it, then I'll start to discount that person's posts. And in any event, the stakes on this seem pretty low.
People clearly think that post count is a valid metric that means something here @ FT. Some people with a lot of posts often tend to get away with a lot of crap that doesn't belong. If they now also have a lot of "likes", most people won't look to see if they were really deserved. They'll just trust the system.
Edit: 2 additional things from the wiki:
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
Jan 13, 2015 | 10:20 pm
#600
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN A-list preferred, United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 22,848
One intriguing suggestion was to allow negative feedback but put a floor of zero on the total. This would allow unhelpful information not to show as helpful without discouraging the poster unnecessarily.