View Poll Results: Q: What is your view on FlyerTalk implementing a "Helpful" button feature?
Support
433
59.72%
Oppose
275
37.93%
No opinion
17
2.34%
Voters: 725. You may not vote on this poll
Jan 12, 2015, 9:07 pm
Last edit by: Prospero
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Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people won’t take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
(lower right wiki corner)Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people won’t take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
"Like" Button?
Jan 16, 2015, 1:18 pm
#661
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis: DL DM charter 2.3MM
Programs: A3*Gold, SPG Plat, HyattDiamond, MarriottPP, LHW exAccess, ICI, Raffles Amb, NW PE MM, TWA Gold MM
Posts: 100,409
IIRC, the active population hovers around 10k people. I do not believe IB has ever purged the user rolls.
So that means that 500k people includes spammers of all kinds, people joining for contests, and those who registered 12 years ago, asked a single question, and haven't been seen since
IHMO, the user rolls should be purged after a certain amount of years of no activity - certainly someone who joined in 1998 and hasn't posted since 1999 shouldn't be counted as a user any longer.
So that means that 500k people includes spammers of all kinds, people joining for contests, and those who registered 12 years ago, asked a single question, and haven't been seen since
IHMO, the user rolls should be purged after a certain amount of years of no activity - certainly someone who joined in 1998 and hasn't posted since 1999 shouldn't be counted as a user any longer.
However, it might not be bad <I'm not advocating this, just pointing it out as a logical possibility> to have a recent activity requirement (maybe in addition to our OMNI/CC time and posts access criteria) for certain privileges such as voting in addition to OMNI/CC and possibly even DO participation. If someone joined FT ten years ago, made 200 posts in the first few months and then disappeared, should they now have CC trading privileges, be allowed to vote, or be given scarce space at a DO that is turning others away? Perhaps this is something to think about.
Jan 16, 2015, 1:22 pm
#662
FlyerTalk Evangelist, Ambassador: World of Hyatt
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: NJ
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, UA Silver, dirt elsewhere
Posts: 46,919
I know that I was a member of another board and I hadn't posted in years - my id was terminated for lack of use.
I didn't feel unwelcome - I just registered again
If anything, the spammer IDs should be removed. They cause nothing but grief to the mods and won't feel unwelcomed - they're already been suspended
I didn't feel unwelcome - I just registered again
If anything, the spammer IDs should be removed. They cause nothing but grief to the mods and won't feel unwelcomed - they're already been suspended
Jan 16, 2015, 1:40 pm
#663
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis: DL DM charter 2.3MM
Programs: A3*Gold, SPG Plat, HyattDiamond, MarriottPP, LHW exAccess, ICI, Raffles Amb, NW PE MM, TWA Gold MM
Posts: 100,409
I know that I was a member of another board and I hadn't posted in years - my id was terminated for lack of use.
I didn't feel unwelcome - I just registered again
If anything, the spammer IDs should be removed. They cause nothing but grief to the mods and won't feel unwelcomed - they're already been suspended
I didn't feel unwelcome - I just registered again
If anything, the spammer IDs should be removed. They cause nothing but grief to the mods and won't feel unwelcomed - they're already been suspended
Jan 16, 2015, 2:01 pm
#664
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Southwest
Programs: HAL Platinum, JetBlue, KrisFlyer, NWA, USAirways, Alaska Air
Posts: 105
I am active on City-data.com/forum and I like the ability to say you find a post helpful. In that forum, there's no ID of the person who approves the post unless they add their name in a comments section in the top right hand of the poster's information. What I do find (other than the ubiquitous thumbs up for birthday's and the like) is that a lot of people are encouraged to really think through their posts, which makes the forum very helpful. There are no thumbs-down icons, however, which I like
Jan 16, 2015, 2:16 pm
#665
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: FIND ME ON TWITTER FOR THE LATEST
Posts: 27,730
Jan 16, 2015, 4:59 pm
#666
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN Companion Pass, A-list preferred, Hyatt Globalist; United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 21,624
Sure, it's going to work like this:
OMNICon: Obama is bad!
--> OmniCon2, OmniCon3, OmniCon4 like this post.
OMNILib: Bush is bad!
--> OmniLib2, OmniLib3, OmniLib4 like this post.
OMNILibertarian: You're all statists!
--> OmniLibertariane likes this post.
...but beyond being pointless, so what? Seriously, what problems would that cause?
(In the best case, it might actually reduce some of the less-substantive echo chamber posts, and just lead to likes on the other guy who said it first.)
OMNICon: Obama is bad!
--> OmniCon2, OmniCon3, OmniCon4 like this post.
OMNILib: Bush is bad!
--> OmniLib2, OmniLib3, OmniLib4 like this post.
OMNILibertarian: You're all statists!
--> OmniLibertariane likes this post.
...but beyond being pointless, so what? Seriously, what problems would that cause?
(In the best case, it might actually reduce some of the less-substantive echo chamber posts, and just lead to likes on the other guy who said it first.)
Suppose we had a per-post Helpful button displaying the total for each post but not showing any summary data anywhere on FT. Considering just OMNI/PR, what other worst-case scenarios can we think of? Everyone please chime in, because I virtually never visit OMNI/PR. I need the expertise of regular participants there.
Edited to add: Oooooh, I made post 666!
Last edited by nsx; Jan 16, 2015 at 5:10 pm
Jan 16, 2015, 5:25 pm
#667
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: in the vicinity of SFO
Programs: AA 2MM (LT-PLT, PPro for this year)
Posts: 19,781
Suppose we had a per-post Helpful button displaying the total for each post but not showing any summary data anywhere on FT. Considering just OMNI/PR, what other worst-case scenarios can we think of? Everyone please chime in, because I virtually never visit OMNI/PR. I need the expertise of regular participants there.
I'm not sure what the down side to having a relatively discreet aggregate number (e.g. on the profile page), although I don't see that there's any gain to it, either.
Where this gets dangerous would be if IB started a "trending posts" (which got a lot of likes) or started prioritizing posts by likes rather than chronologically, or if there's a downvote option (not sure which is worse, anonymous or not, but both have serious downsides.)
Jan 16, 2015, 5:34 pm
#668
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN Companion Pass, A-list preferred, Hyatt Globalist; United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 21,624
Where this gets dangerous would be if IB started a "trending posts" (which got a lot of likes) or started prioritizing posts by likes rather than chronologically, or if there's a downvote option (not sure which is worse, anonymous or not, but both have serious downsides.)
2. Changing thread display according to Helpful ratings was once something I favored. As you say, it carries gaming danger. I no longer favor this complication. It also sounds hard to implement.
3. Downvotes carry danger, probably mitigated by not allowing the total to go below zero. I'm not interested in pursuing any downvote feature until we have extensive experience with an upvote only system.
Jan 16, 2015, 6:53 pm
#669
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: in the vicinity of SFO
Programs: AA 2MM (LT-PLT, PPro for this year)
Posts: 19,781
2. Changing thread display according to Helpful ratings was once something I favored. As you say, it carries gaming danger. I no longer favor this complication. It also sounds hard to implement.
3. Downvotes carry danger, probably mitigated by not allowing the total to go below zero. I'm not interested in pursuing any downvote feature until we have extensive experience with an upvote only system.
Jan 16, 2015, 9:55 pm
#670
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: May 2002
Location: YEG
Programs: HH Silver
Posts: 56,448
OMNI P/R isn't the only venue where a 'helpful' button could be misused as the "Trick It" thread and MS forum are others that come to my mind. I'm not sure if I'd consider misuse in those forums nor OMNI P/R as "harmless" but that's merely MHO.
Good to hear as I'm in the camp that doesn't feel we actually need this at all.
We have a lot of work left to do before proceeding with anything.
Jan 16, 2015, 10:16 pm
#671
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: in the vicinity of SFO
Programs: AA 2MM (LT-PLT, PPro for this year)
Posts: 19,781
Or are you expecting some practical result out of the use of the button?
Jan 16, 2015, 10:29 pm
#672
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: May 2002
Location: YEG
Programs: HH Silver
Posts: 56,448
By misuse, do you just mean "someone clicks like on something factually incorrect," and someone else misinterprets that count of likes to mean it's correct? (Obviously not an issue with P/R, as it's all silly opinions.)
Or are you expecting some practical result out of the use of the button?
Or are you expecting some practical result out of the use of the button?
Jan 16, 2015, 11:24 pm
#673
Join Date: Jul 2007
Programs: QFF
Posts: 5,304
I have yet to see any valid reason why this is "needed". Just a lot of "other boards have this, so we should too".
I have left other forums because they added things like this.
I have left other forums because they added things like this.
Jan 16, 2015, 11:51 pm
#674
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: in the vicinity of SFO
Programs: AA 2MM (LT-PLT, PPro for this year)
Posts: 19,781
I don't find the semantics all that different, and certainly on OMNI P/R, nobody's going to suddenly start finding the unhelpful political chatter helpful because someone clicked on it.
Even if labelled "helpful" or "thanks," I don't think many users are going to be so unsophisticated as to automatically assume content is more valid because it got what are in essence "likes," but if other folks think that it's confusing or misleading then that's a good argument for using a more neutral term.
Even if labelled "helpful" or "thanks," I don't think many users are going to be so unsophisticated as to automatically assume content is more valid because it got what are in essence "likes," but if other folks think that it's confusing or misleading then that's a good argument for using a more neutral term.
Jan 16, 2015, 11:57 pm
#675
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: BOS/UTH
Programs: AA LT PLT; QR GLD; Bonvoy LT TIT
Posts: 12,753
I used to be in the campaign management and polling business in the U.S. 55/45 was a clear victory. Much above that, and certainly above 60/40, the loser was often said (in the business) to have "received the beating s/he richly deserved."