View Poll Results: Q: What is your view on FlyerTalk implementing a "Helpful" button feature?
Support
433
59.72%
Oppose
275
37.93%
No opinion
17
2.34%
Voters: 725. You may not vote on this poll
Jan 12, 2015, 9:07 pm
Last edit by: Prospero
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Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people wont take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
(lower right wiki corner)Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people wont take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
"Like" Button?
Jan 17, 2015 | 6:19 pm
#691
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: BOS/UTH
Programs: AA LT PLT; QRPC PLT/OW EMD; Bonvoy LT Titanium
Posts: 14,571
(regarding displaying a member's "Helpful" total)
If a member's "score" is displayed, that encourages members to find ways to manipulate the score. The Manufactured Spending crowd would be all over this, manufacturing scores in the thousands, just for the fun of it. If you think members play games to inflate post count, just watch what they do when you give them a score.
If and when a Helpful button has established a successful track record I'd be willing to run a short trial of publicly viewable score. I would not expect the trial to be a shining success, but maybe it would surprise me.
If a member's "score" is displayed, that encourages members to find ways to manipulate the score. The Manufactured Spending crowd would be all over this, manufacturing scores in the thousands, just for the fun of it. If you think members play games to inflate post count, just watch what they do when you give them a score.
If and when a Helpful button has established a successful track record I'd be willing to run a short trial of publicly viewable score. I would not expect the trial to be a shining success, but maybe it would surprise me.
Jan 17, 2015 | 6:43 pm
#692
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: May 2002
Location: YEG
Programs: HH Silver
Posts: 57,026
Originally Posted by nkedel
Certainly; it's just the one most often named where it will be "abused" or "gamed," including in one post further back of yours that I was responding to, which you responded by quibbling about "like" vs. "helpful."
Originally Posted by nsx
The Manufactured Spending crowd would be all over this, manufacturing scores in the thousands, just for the fun of it. If you think members play games to inflate post count, just watch what they do when you give them a score.
Jan 17, 2015 | 8:20 pm
#693
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Denver, CO, USA
Programs: Sometimes known as [ARG:6 UNDEFINED]
Posts: 28,758
The back-and-forth we're having right now - sharing opinions, disagreeing, providing support for our statements - is social by its very nature. If you don't think this is social media, then I don't know what to say.
Jan 17, 2015 | 11:05 pm
#694
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Pittsburgh
Programs: MR LT Titanium, AA LT PLT, UA SLV, Avis PreferredPlus, HH Gold, Hertz PC, National Executive, etc.
Posts: 31,670
Why would TB members need to see how much a member is liked? How does that facilitate their role on FT?
If this is a great idea, why would it need to be able to be turned off? Seems logically inconsistent.
In turning off my ability to see the data, please also turn off my ability to see all the discussion, meta-discussion, and arguments on the same topic.
If this is a great idea, why would it need to be able to be turned off? Seems logically inconsistent.
In turning off my ability to see the data, please also turn off my ability to see all the discussion, meta-discussion, and arguments on the same topic.
Jan 18, 2015 | 1:06 am
#695
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: in the vicinity of SFO
Programs: AA 2MM (LT-PLT, PPro for this year)
Posts: 19,784
Overall, I do think it's a quibble and while they are not literally one and the same, in practice most people can and will use them interchangeably even if some people will choose to read them literally.
To my mind, that speaks for choosing a less specific wording if given the choice, but as I said up-thread, I think most people are sophisticated enough not to read too much into votes even if given a more specific label like "helpful."
Jan 18, 2015 | 1:53 am
#696
Moderator, Finnair
Join Date: May 2011
Location: MMX (CPH)
Programs: EB Diamond, AY+ Gold, A3*G, Strawberry Lifetime Platinum, GHA Discovery Titanium, SJ Prio Black
Posts: 15,184
And not only the display. The opt out that was asked for was both on views and on participation. Just like nkedel says, opt out on participation could be disruptive, and that is why it has to be considered even more carefully at the early stages of the (possible) implementation of this feature.
Therefore, I'd feel a lot more comfortable if nsx would move this to the mandatory list.
On views, the purpose of the opt out is to save screen space, to not clutter the view or draw attention to something the user has no interest in and to be presented the threads without any filtering, re-ordering or other manipulation of the discussion flow (should such functions be developed).
On participation, the purpose of the opt out is again to keep unnecessary screen objects out of sight, even though this might be a minor issue - a like button can be constructed without stealing much space. I could even be implemented as a "Post-tools drop-down", analogous to the thread-tools and the forum-tools drop-downs.
But more importantly, I think the opt out for participation includes the possibility to not have your posts voted on, not having your posts or username appearing in top-lists or automatically featured on the blogs, frontpage et.c. (should such functions be implemented).
Opt out of participation could be implemented with minimal disruption to the function - the like button could be greyed-out on posts made by opted-out poster, and if clicking/hoovering the message "poster have opted out of like system" displayed.
Jan 18, 2015 | 4:59 am
#697
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2008
Programs: AA EXP/LTP, BA GGL/CCR/GfL, HH D/LTD, SPG/MR Plat/LTP
Posts: 10,096
The comparison between Flyertalk and TripAdvisor seems entertaining, at least.
Planning a trip, I turned to TA for suggestions on a seafood restaurant at the destination. One of the reviewers had written 16 reviews, but had a 25-fold number of "helpful" votes.
One certainly hopes FT attracts at least some members from the same cohort of super posters...
Planning a trip, I turned to TA for suggestions on a seafood restaurant at the destination. One of the reviewers had written 16 reviews, but had a 25-fold number of "helpful" votes.
One certainly hopes FT attracts at least some members from the same cohort of super posters...
Jan 18, 2015 | 5:48 am
#698
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis: DL DM charter 2.3MM
Programs: A3*Gold, SPG Plat, HyattDiamond, MarriottPP, LHW exAccess, ICI, Raffles Amb, NW PE MM, TWA Gold MM
Posts: 102,617
Are you sure it wouldn't be determined by the forum's moderators? They seem to decide whether the forum witll have a lounge thread and whether there will be Ambassadors for the forum. This decision seems similar in spirit.
Jan 18, 2015 | 8:43 am
#699
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 10
I vote no
Ugh, no. Please don't implement a Like button. I don't care if other people "like" something or not. If they have something useful to add to a conversation (either positive or negative), then let them post.
Besides, those folks who like the "sound" of their own "voice" will still post stuff like "Yeah, I agree" or other <5 word responses that add little to conversation. I don't think they'll switch to using a "Like" button, so it probably won't cut down on the pointless posts.
Of course, I lurk 99% of the time, so perhaps the whole "don't respond if you have nothing valuable to add" is just a reflection of my own personal nature.
I'll survive if it's implemented, but it does seem pointless to me.
Besides, those folks who like the "sound" of their own "voice" will still post stuff like "Yeah, I agree" or other <5 word responses that add little to conversation. I don't think they'll switch to using a "Like" button, so it probably won't cut down on the pointless posts.
Of course, I lurk 99% of the time, so perhaps the whole "don't respond if you have nothing valuable to add" is just a reflection of my own personal nature.
I'll survive if it's implemented, but it does seem pointless to me.
Jan 18, 2015 | 9:02 am
#700
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN A-list preferred, United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 22,848
Moderators may have input and they can always make recommendations to the Community Director, but I see this as a features and functionality issue on which TalkBoard is supposed to take the lead in making recommendations.
Jan 18, 2015 | 9:09 am
#701
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN A-list preferred, United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 22,848
But more importantly, I think the opt out for participation includes the possibility to not have your posts voted on, not having your posts or username appearing in top-lists or automatically featured on the blogs, frontpage et.c. (should such functions be implemented).
The former sounds difficult to implement, but I will ask. The software would need to allow or not allow the button post by post, according to the preferences of the poster. That seems over the top, especially given that only upvotes are allowed. Besides, if you disable display any Helpful votes, how would you know whether anyone had voted on your posts?
Jan 18, 2015 | 11:20 am
#703
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN A-list preferred, United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 22,848
My point was that disabling the display of the Helpful button and Helpful counts would make it difficult for you to become annoyed at how many or how few likes your posts receive.
Jan 18, 2015 | 1:25 pm
#704
Moderator, Finnair
Join Date: May 2011
Location: MMX (CPH)
Programs: EB Diamond, AY+ Gold, A3*G, Strawberry Lifetime Platinum, GHA Discovery Titanium, SJ Prio Black
Posts: 15,184
As I said, the latter is not something I support. No consequences should flow from vote count of your posts, other than a possible inclusion in TalkMail or a curated FT home page. Both of those are built by people who can read.
The former sounds difficult to implement, but I will ask. The software would need to allow or not allow the button post by post, according to the preferences of the poster. That seems over the top, especially given that only upvotes are allowed.
The former sounds difficult to implement, but I will ask. The software would need to allow or not allow the button post by post, according to the preferences of the poster. That seems over the top, especially given that only upvotes are allowed.
a) only usage is instant feedback
b) except possibly some things you find useful
That is exactly why I think the opt-out must be on the table from start.
Even to only display instant feedback between viewer and poster, the software will need to keep track of each and every upvote ever made. So when someone says "Hey, we have all this data stored, why not put it to use" and "The xxx-site is doing it and we should too" and "It is such a small step from what we do today, so no one can have anything against that" I think there should be some sort of insurance for us who provide the content to this site to opt-out from usage we are not comfortable with.
I don't know why an opt-out should be more difficult to implement. The software needs to render one like-button for each and every post it displays. It will be unique to each post, because the software must know which like button you click on.
It will also need to know who is watching the like button (because if you already liked a post, I guess you are not allowed to like it again, right?).
So to render each and every like button the software already needs to keep track of both the viewer and the post. And the software already keeps track of the owner of each and every post. The step to check the preferences of the owner of the post shouldn't be difficult.
The software already checks the viewer preferences before rendering posts (ignore list and signatures). Checking the poster preferences can't be more difficult.
Because I'm suddenly featured on the front page, referenced in a blog or put on a toplist or my post is suddenly used out of context. Your second sentence says you already have intentions to use the collected data in other ways than just to provide feedback.
Last edited by intuition; Jan 18, 2015 at 1:31 pm
Jan 18, 2015 | 2:02 pm
#705
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 72,121
