View Poll Results: Q: What is your view on FlyerTalk implementing a "Helpful" button feature?
Support
433
59.72%
Oppose
275
37.93%
No opinion
17
2.34%
Voters: 725. You may not vote on this poll
Jan 12, 2015, 9:07 pm
Last edit by: Prospero
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Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people won’t take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
(lower right wiki corner)Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people won’t take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
"Like" Button?
Jan 15, 2015, 6:12 pm
#646
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
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Jan 15, 2015, 9:52 pm
#647
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
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Jan 15, 2015, 10:48 pm
#648
FlyerTalk Evangelist
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I'm not sure fact that some people will want the counters make them valuable. I don't see the harm in them (any more than post count) but I don't really see the gain.
I'm not sure the format of FT is such that the reputation scoring aspect would work, nor curation to help "quality content rise to the top" -- we are unlikely to ever have a personalization engine (where one's own "likes" can help surface content) and ordering content by likes would open this up to exactly the sort of gaming that people have complained might be possible.
Doing this the way SlickDeals and/or FatWallet do it is exactly what we DON'T want to do.
It's clearly been massively successful in a wide range of applications. It's crowdsourcing at its finest.
[...]
The bottom line, IMO, is that Likes are a massively helpful innovation that helps quality content rise to the top (SlickDeals, a similar forum, does an outstanding job with this) via rewarding quality work (through reputation scoring) and via curation. Furthermore, a clear majority of FTers wants it.
[...]
The bottom line, IMO, is that Likes are a massively helpful innovation that helps quality content rise to the top (SlickDeals, a similar forum, does an outstanding job with this) via rewarding quality work (through reputation scoring) and via curation. Furthermore, a clear majority of FTers wants it.
Doing this the way SlickDeals and/or FatWallet do it is exactly what we DON'T want to do.
Jan 15, 2015, 11:08 pm
#649
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
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Posts: 21,618
Jan 16, 2015, 12:26 am
#650
Moderator, Finnair
Join Date: May 2011
Location: MMX (CPH)
Programs: Eurobonus Diamond, QR Gold, AY+ Platinum, A3*G, Nordic Choice Lifetime Platinum, SJ Prio Black
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In a group of 100 people, 50 voted against and 50 for in the first vote. In the second vote, 9 people "changed sides" and thus the second vote resulted 59-41. That is the way I read the "9% change" comment.
What I was trying to say tactfully is that it's pretty hard to be a good TB member and ignore this turnout and 60/38 vote split. Furthermore, history is not on the side of those against the Like button. It's clearly been massively successful in a wide range of applications. It's crowdsourcing at its finest.
...
The bottom line, IMO, is that Likes are a massively helpful innovation that helps quality content rise to the top (SlickDeals, a similar forum, does an outstanding job with this) via rewarding quality work (through reputation scoring) and via curation. Furthermore, a clear majority of FTers wants it.
...
The bottom line, IMO, is that Likes are a massively helpful innovation that helps quality content rise to the top (SlickDeals, a similar forum, does an outstanding job with this) via rewarding quality work (through reputation scoring) and via curation. Furthermore, a clear majority of FTers wants it.
And again, how is a poll with 700 votes out of a population of 500 000+ members, where you have no information of the statistical selection of voters, a clear indicator of the whole population?
Jan 16, 2015, 2:29 am
#651
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If it's so good as to be used in the miles and points and/or other travel sections of FT, it should be just as good for use in OMNI/PR. Apparently IB created this feature for use across all forums on FT and other sites using its VBulletin board software and that is what support for this would get if this poll were to be implemented as voted now.
About the poll's representative/unrepresentative nature of FT membership base, I'm not sure that matters. Most members are probably apathetic about such matters, even if the poll margin is off by +/- 9 percent or more.
About the poll's representative/unrepresentative nature of FT membership base, I'm not sure that matters. Most members are probably apathetic about such matters, even if the poll margin is off by +/- 9 percent or more.
Jan 16, 2015, 4:54 am
#652
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Either at the shooting range or anywhere good beer can be found...
Posts: 51,030
If it's so good as to be used in the miles and points and/or other travel sections of FT, it should be just as good for use in OMNI/PR. Apparently IB created this feature for use across all forums on FT and other sites using its VBulletin board software and that is what support for this would get if this poll were to be implemented as voted now.
About the poll's representative/unrepresentative nature of FT membership base, I'm not sure that matters. Most members are probably apathetic about such matters, even if the poll margin is off by +/- 9 percent or more.
About the poll's representative/unrepresentative nature of FT membership base, I'm not sure that matters. Most members are probably apathetic about such matters, even if the poll margin is off by +/- 9 percent or more.
Jan 16, 2015, 9:02 am
#653
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Not defending the math, but it is possible to view it like this:
In a group of 100 people, 50 voted against and 50 for in the first vote. In the second vote, 9 people "changed sides" and thus the second vote resulted 59-41. That is the way I read the "9% change" comment.
In a group of 100 people, 50 voted against and 50 for in the first vote. In the second vote, 9 people "changed sides" and thus the second vote resulted 59-41. That is the way I read the "9% change" comment.
but the post was completely incorrect. If a referendum in real-life (as opposed to here) is held and it passes 51-49-- it "won" by 2%.
If the result was 59-39-- it passed by 20%. Which would then be described as a "landslide."
We can most definitely disagree about if this whole this means much of anything; % of FTers that participated, do they even understand what they're voting on, are people opposed more likely to just not vote-- all valid issues and none I'd really argue. Maybe it should be like a totalitarian republic where everybody is forced to cast a vote.
But, I would argue, that at least be honest and accurate about the results as they stand-- meaningless or meaningful as they may be. If the vote is to be ignored or dismissed-- fine, there may be excellent reasons to do exactly that, or to just use it as one of many factors, or to simply decide "this feature is foolish, better for FT if we -don't- implement it at this time-- but accuracy about the results shouldn't be optional.
Last edited by JonNYC; Jan 16, 2015 at 9:10 am
Jan 16, 2015, 9:18 am
#654
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I'd also add-- but most certainly cannot support/prove/know, obviously-- that if the results of the poll were the exact opposite (20% margin against) that those who oppose this feature would be bandying that result about as "a clear rejection of turning FT into Facebook!" and "a decisive defeat for this dumb idea!" And they wouldn't be talking about "well, only a fraction of FTers voted, so...." and/or "well, if you look at it, it's still basically not far from 50/50, right??"
Be honest-- you know it's true.
Be honest-- you know it's true.
Jan 16, 2015, 10:17 am
#655
Moderator, Finnair
Join Date: May 2011
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(See, you can have a 51% lead for free! I'm not only honest but also generous
As I said, I wasn't out to defend the math, just to say that I understand the reasoning behind it. IMO no dishonesty was meant by the commenter.
About the landslide, I guess that term is somewhat dependent on ones cultural environment. For me personally a 60-40 is nowhere near a landslide. For me, a 60-40 contains one small majority and one large minority.
I'd also add-- but most certainly cannot support/prove/know, obviously-- that if the results of the poll were the exact opposite (20% margin against) that those who oppose this feature would be bandying that result about as "a clear rejection of turning FT into Facebook!" and "a decisive defeat for this dumb idea!" And they wouldn't be talking about "well, only a fraction of FTers voted, so...." and/or "well, if you look at it, it's still basically not far from 50/50, right??"
Be honest-- you know it's true.
Be honest-- you know it's true.
Jan 16, 2015, 10:52 am
#656
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
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Jan 16, 2015, 11:05 am
#657
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Home
Programs: AA, Delta, UA & thanks to FTers for my PC Gold!
Posts: 7,676
Fact vs. Conjecture
I'd also add-- but most certainly cannot support/prove/know, obviously-- that if the results of the poll were the exact opposite (20% margin against) that those who oppose this feature would be bandying that result about as "a clear rejection of turning FT into Facebook!" and "a decisive defeat for this dumb idea!" And they wouldn't be talking about "well, only a fraction of FTers voted, so...." and/or "well, if you look at it, it's still basically not far from 50/50, right??"
Be honest-- you know it's true.
Be honest-- you know it's true.
I personally don't think this line of what-ifs conjecture would add any value to the discussion especially when you can't provide evidence to prove your "theory."
It's a fact FT now has 580,319 members. With 712 voters so far in this poll (which is only 0.123% of FTers), no one can claim the majority of FTers have spoken, no matter what the result is.
Sorry to disappoint you. Not until you get 290,160 FTers (aka 50% of current 580,319 registered members) to show their support, nobody knows what the majority of FTers want for anything. Yes, statistics is a b*tch.
See Post#645 by halls120 for a more accurate description of the voting trend in this poll:I think the bottom line is how a new addition, such as this LIKE/Helpful button, can really improve a non social media like FT. That's the million-dollar question for our TB and CD to ponder upon.
Last edited by lin821; Jan 16, 2015 at 11:11 am
Jan 16, 2015, 12:36 pm
#658
FlyerTalk Evangelist
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OMNICon: Obama is bad!
--> OmniCon2, OmniCon3, OmniCon4 like this post.
OMNILib: Bush is bad!
--> OmniLib2, OmniLib3, OmniLib4 like this post.
OMNILibertarian: You're all statists!
--> OmniLibertariane likes this post.
...but beyond being pointless, so what? Seriously, what problems would that cause?
(In the best case, it might actually reduce some of the less-substantive echo chamber posts, and just lead to likes on the other guy who said it first.)
From experience with other similar-but-smaller systems, the real "active user" population is going to be vastly smaller than the historical total number of signups.
The fact that we've now got nearly twice as many votes as the talkboard election got suggests that there's a great deal of interest in this issue, beyond simply a core of FT insiders.
Jan 16, 2015, 1:02 pm
#659
FlyerTalk Evangelist, Ambassador: World of Hyatt
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IIRC, the active population hovers around 10k people. I do not believe IB has ever purged the user rolls.
So that means that 500k people includes spammers of all kinds, people joining for contests, and those who registered 12 years ago, asked a single question, and haven't been seen since
IHMO, the user rolls should be purged after a certain amount of years of no activity - certainly someone who joined in 1998 and hasn't posted since 1999 shouldn't be counted as a user any longer.
So that means that 500k people includes spammers of all kinds, people joining for contests, and those who registered 12 years ago, asked a single question, and haven't been seen since
IHMO, the user rolls should be purged after a certain amount of years of no activity - certainly someone who joined in 1998 and hasn't posted since 1999 shouldn't be counted as a user any longer.
Jan 16, 2015, 1:07 pm
#660
Moderator: British Airways Executive Club, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges and Environmentally Friendly Travel
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It's a nice effort but the post was completely incorrect.
If a referendum in real-life (as opposed to here) is held and it passes 51-49-- it "won" by 2%.
If the result was 59-39-- it passed by 20%. Which would then be described as a "landslide."
We can most definitely disagree about if this whole this means much of anything; % of FTers that participated, do they even understand what they're voting on, are people opposed more likely to just not vote-- all valid issues and none I'd really argue. Maybe it should be like a totalitarian republic where everybody is forced to cast a vote.
But, I would argue, that at least be honest and accurate about the results as they stand-- meaningless or meaningful as they may be. If the vote is to be ignored or dismissed-- fine, there may be excellent reasons to do exactly that, or to just use it as one of many factors, or to simply decide "this feature is foolish, better for FT if we -don't- implement it at this time-- but accuracy about the results shouldn't be optional.
but the post was completely incorrect. If a referendum in real-life (as opposed to here) is held and it passes 51-49-- it "won" by 2%.
If the result was 59-39-- it passed by 20%. Which would then be described as a "landslide."
We can most definitely disagree about if this whole this means much of anything; % of FTers that participated, do they even understand what they're voting on, are people opposed more likely to just not vote-- all valid issues and none I'd really argue. Maybe it should be like a totalitarian republic where everybody is forced to cast a vote.
But, I would argue, that at least be honest and accurate about the results as they stand-- meaningless or meaningful as they may be. If the vote is to be ignored or dismissed-- fine, there may be excellent reasons to do exactly that, or to just use it as one of many factors, or to simply decide "this feature is foolish, better for FT if we -don't- implement it at this time-- but accuracy about the results shouldn't be optional.
As a real life example, the result of last year's Scottish Independence referendum went 55/45. The 55 was broadly viewed as a commanding majority
