View Poll Results: Q: What is your view on FlyerTalk implementing a "Helpful" button feature?
Support
433
59.72%
Oppose
275
37.93%
No opinion
17
2.34%
Voters: 725. You may not vote on this poll
Jan 12, 2015, 9:07 pm
Last edit by: Prospero
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Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people wont take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
(lower right wiki corner)Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people wont take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
"Like" Button?
Jan 18, 2015 | 2:12 pm
#706
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN A-list preferred, United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 22,848
I don't see a big difference between Helpful votes and "Suggest this thread for TalkMail". Nobody has ever asked for ability to prevent others from suggesting your thread for TalkMail.
Jan 18, 2015 | 5:47 pm
#707
Suspended
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Atherton, CA
Programs: UA 1K, AA EXP; Owner, Green Bay Packers
Posts: 21,685
Along with anticipated problems, like manipulation of "like" counts by FTers accustomed to playing point maximization games and little cliques of the like minded, there will certainly be other, unanticipated problems.
As far as manipulating points/counts, the strange way the poll progressed has raised many eyebrows.
The disingenuous attempt at making the whole implementation less visible and less obviously what it is by relabeling the "Like" button a "Helpful" button to disguise a very unpopular concept is also disturbing.
I strongly encourage Talkboard to vote down this bad idea. We are not Facebook.
Jan 18, 2015 | 6:32 pm
#708
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: FIND ME ON TWITTER FOR THE LATEST
Posts: 27,729
people seriously *still* working this angle???
If by "raised eyebrows" you mean "silly, unfounded, ridiculous accusations and far-fetched, foil-hat, laughable, conspiracy theories-- with absolutely, positively no foundation in fact whatsoever," then, yes, true, good point.
Jan 18, 2015 | 9:08 pm
#709
Suspended
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Atherton, CA
Programs: UA 1K, AA EXP; Owner, Green Bay Packers
Posts: 21,685
You've got your opinions, I've got mine. I routinely look at data sets and know when something seems odd.
Jan 18, 2015 | 9:39 pm
#710
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,077
In plenty of places, who cast a vote in elections is public info -- even the means of voting and when the person voted is public info. That info being out there in public does have some substantial history of reducing voting fraud/irregularities.
Speaking of voting, there is nothing inherently undemocratic about requiring all members with voting rights to exercise their voting right as a condition of participation in society, even if the exercise is to cast a ballot that selects no candidate/proposal. FT/IB can't do that sort of thing, annoying as it may be?
Last edited by GUWonder; Jan 18, 2015 at 9:57 pm
Jan 18, 2015 | 10:02 pm
#711
Suspended
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Atherton, CA
Programs: UA 1K, AA EXP; Owner, Green Bay Packers
Posts: 21,685
GUWonder, that is the explanation that seems likely to me as well. But that does lead to a skew in the data.
Jan 18, 2015 | 10:02 pm
#712
Moderator: Hilton Honors forums
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Marietta, Georgia, United States
Posts: 25,432
After all, as you said...
Jan 19, 2015 | 12:49 am
#713
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: in the vicinity of SFO
Programs: AA 2MM (LT-PLT, PPro for this year)
Posts: 19,784
To be clear, "nice to have" is just my opinion of it; I speak for nobody else.
On views, the purpose of the opt out is to save screen space, to not clutter the view or draw attention to something the user has no interest in
and to be presented the threads without any filtering, re-ordering or other manipulation of the discussion flow (should such functions be developed).
On participation, the purpose of the opt out is again to keep unnecessary screen objects out of sight, even though this might be a minor issue - a like button can be constructed without stealing much space.
I could even be implemented as a "Post-tools drop-down", analogous to the thread-tools and the forum-tools drop-downs.
But more importantly, I think the opt out for participation includes the possibility to not have your posts voted on
not having your posts or username appearing in top-lists or automatically featured on the blogs, frontpage et.c. (should such functions be implemented).
The former sounds difficult to implement, but I will ask. The software would need to allow or not allow the button post by post, according to the preferences of the poster. That seems over the top, especially given that only upvotes are allowed. Besides, if you disable display any Helpful votes, how would you know whether anyone had voted on your posts?
Jan 19, 2015 | 1:05 am
#714
Moderator, Finnair
Join Date: May 2011
Location: MMX (CPH)
Programs: EB Diamond, AY+ Gold, A3*G, Strawberry Lifetime Platinum, GHA Discovery Titanium, SJ Prio Black
Posts: 15,184
In contrast to the “like” button system, submitting suggestions for inclusion in the TalkMail newsletter is completely anonymous to fellow FlyerTalk members; is not “invasive” to the profile of a FlyerTalk member; and submitting a suggestion does not automatically guarantee publication.
...
...
And also, when pressing "Suggest to talkmail" it is pretty clear to the user what will happen - the thread will be suggested to be included in talkmail. The user can understand the consequences of the action.
The usage of the like/helpful vote is much more sneaky - it is in no way clear to the "liker" that the action will lead to anything besides a thumbs up on the post.
Another difference between the two functions is that one works on a thread and the other works on a single post. A single post is uniquely associated with a single member. A single post, outside its context can be read as something completely different than the poster intended.
The "no one ever asked for opt out on suggest to talkmail" is not a very good argument to not include opt-out when designing a new feature. In my mind, if the summary of this thread states "opt-out is just a nice to have", it suggests nsx read this thread very selectively.
If opt-out is left out, I guess members who doesn't want to be voted upon can resort to self-censoring by refraining from posting helpful things. This is in fact what has happened on some social media sites, where users have learned the hard way that they have very little control over how posted material is used.
Last edited by intuition; Jan 19, 2015 at 1:10 am Reason: spelling
Jan 19, 2015 | 2:18 am
#715
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: in the vicinity of SFO
Programs: AA 2MM (LT-PLT, PPro for this year)
Posts: 19,784
"The next two functions are a trade-off between value and implementation cost, and I don't yet have any information on the latter. So these will take time to research:"
"Nice to have" was my own unsolicited opinion of the feature.
If opt-out is left out, I guess members who doesn't want to be voted upon can resort to self-censoring by refraining from posting helpful things.
This is in fact what has happened on some social media sites, where users have learned the hard way that they have very little control over how posted material is used.
The possibility of a more general opt-out, and to whatever extent IB is willing to allow it, is worth looking into. I really don't see how the addition of a "like" feature in any way changes the basic nature of it, nor how it makes it somehow more likely that IB will reuse posted content with or without attribution.
(I have no idea if IB is sophisticated enough to data-mine "likes" but even if they do, it's hard to see the impact of that on the person receiving the "likes" -- the value of a "like" in data mining or advertising is almost entirely based on the person doing the "liking" and not the underlying content.)
Jan 19, 2015 | 2:35 am
#716
Moderator, Finnair
Join Date: May 2011
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I used "nice to have" as the established term for things deemed not essential for project approval, which was my interpretation of nsx's second paragraph. It doesn't literally say that in the OP, but I found the later reply to indicate this indeed was the case.
Jan 19, 2015 | 3:52 pm
#717
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Pittsburgh
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Posts: 31,670
Jan 19, 2015 | 8:15 pm
#718
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Either at the shooting range or anywhere good beer can be found...
Posts: 52,783
Jan 20, 2015 | 12:44 am
#719
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: in the vicinity of SFO
Programs: AA 2MM (LT-PLT, PPro for this year)
Posts: 19,784
Even if my guess is wrong, as a general rule, I'd err on the side of the latter.
Jan 20, 2015 | 2:27 am
#720
Moderator, Finnair
Join Date: May 2011
Location: MMX (CPH)
Programs: EB Diamond, AY+ Gold, A3*G, Strawberry Lifetime Platinum, GHA Discovery Titanium, SJ Prio Black
Posts: 15,184
I never said said leaving, though.
The self-censoring however is documented on other social media sites and the threat of fewer and/or lower quality contributions is real and not vanishingly small. But I guess it is pointless having this discussion. If you like the like, then nothing's gonna change that.
The self-censoring however is documented on other social media sites and the threat of fewer and/or lower quality contributions is real and not vanishingly small. But I guess it is pointless having this discussion. If you like the like, then nothing's gonna change that.