View Poll Results: Q: What is your view on FlyerTalk implementing a "Helpful" button feature?
Support
433
59.72%
Oppose
275
37.93%
No opinion
17
2.34%
Voters: 725. You may not vote on this poll
Jan 12, 2015, 9:07 pm
Last edit by: Prospero
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Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people wont take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
(lower right wiki corner)Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people wont take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
"Like" Button?
Jan 17, 2015 | 12:46 am
#676
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: May 2002
Location: YEG
Programs: HH Silver
Posts: 57,025
Jan 17, 2015 | 6:33 am
#677
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 72,111
As far as comparison to the TB election, I don't see how that's relevant.
Where this gets dangerous would be if IB started a "trending posts" (which got a lot of likes) or started prioritizing posts by likes rather than chronologically, or if there's a downvote option (not sure which is worse, anonymous or not, but both have serious downsides.)
One of the attributes of FT I like very much is the ability to follow the discussion chronologically - especially if I've been away - so that I can follow how a given discussion has progressed.
Jan 17, 2015 | 7:30 am
#678
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2008
Programs: AA EXP/LTP, BA GGL/CCR/GfL, HH D/LTD, SPG/MR Plat/LTP
Posts: 10,096
Just posted my view on this topic in the BAEC forum. Thougt it might interest members of other fora:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/24183620-post131.html
Unsurprisingly, I voted No
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/24183620-post131.html
Unsurprisingly, I voted No
Jan 17, 2015 | 9:35 am
#679
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: SGF
Programs: AS, AA, UA, AGR S+, Choice Platinum
Posts: 23,317
I am active on City-data.com/forum and I like the ability to say you find a post helpful. In that forum, there's no ID of the person who approves the post unless they add their name in a comments section in the top right hand of the poster's information. What I do find (other than the ubiquitous thumbs up for birthday's and the like) is that a lot of people are encouraged to really think through their posts, which makes the forum very helpful. There are no thumbs-down icons, however, which I like
While the quality of discussion on FT is often quite good, there are times when it isn't. It would be nice to replicate the level of discussion on those other communities here on FlyerTalk.
Jan 17, 2015 | 10:10 am
#680
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Aug 2002
Programs: UALifetimePremierGold, Marriott LifetimeTitanium
Posts: 74,088
The poll is now closed. In addition to poll results (and I would say & have said throughout this thread), I believe TB members when considering whether to move forward with this at all or in what format will consider BOTH the various discussion threads as well as the poll.
Some good questions, input, concerns, pros/cons, have been raised on them & especially with the concerns/questions, need to be addressed. Heck, there are some items that have been listed that in some cases neither side thought of until raised, which is why this long discussion in TB, as well as the other threads, has been a good thing.
Since some TB members don't necessarily go to Omni, I'm posting links to the 3 Omni threads as well as the BA thread. Obviously TB members don't need a link to this thread in the public forum but have been following along (or if not, then can now read it in its entirety).
BA thread:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/briti...our-forum.html
3 Omni threads.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/omni/...ike-fb-ft.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/omni-...ike-fb-ft.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/omni/...t-ft-like.html **
** Clarification: The last thread was locked, not due to anything FTers did wrong but because the mod directed FTers to this thread in TB. The last thread dealt with some issues that cropped up when the internal mod/TB trial was underway that impacted non mods/TB members.
Cheers.
Some good questions, input, concerns, pros/cons, have been raised on them & especially with the concerns/questions, need to be addressed. Heck, there are some items that have been listed that in some cases neither side thought of until raised, which is why this long discussion in TB, as well as the other threads, has been a good thing.
Since some TB members don't necessarily go to Omni, I'm posting links to the 3 Omni threads as well as the BA thread. Obviously TB members don't need a link to this thread in the public forum but have been following along (or if not, then can now read it in its entirety).
BA thread:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/briti...our-forum.html
3 Omni threads.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/omni/...ike-fb-ft.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/omni-...ike-fb-ft.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/omni/...t-ft-like.html **
** Clarification: The last thread was locked, not due to anything FTers did wrong but because the mod directed FTers to this thread in TB. The last thread dealt with some issues that cropped up when the internal mod/TB trial was underway that impacted non mods/TB members.
Cheers.
Jan 17, 2015 | 10:14 am
#681
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: up front or in a suite!!!!
Programs: all the big ones.. no LCCs for me
Posts: 1,064
Ididn't see this in time but
I would have voted
oppose
so please take that into consideration when making this decision
I would have voted
oppose
so please take that into consideration when making this decision
Jan 17, 2015 | 10:32 am
#682
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Denver, CO, USA
Programs: Sometimes known as [ARG:6 UNDEFINED]
Posts: 28,758
I find this one of the more bizarre comments in the thread. FT not social? Unless you see FT only as a fact repository, it's one of the most obvious examples of social media on the web!
Jan 17, 2015 | 10:37 am
#683
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN A-list preferred, United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 22,848
(regarding displaying a member's "Helpful" total)
If a member's "score" is displayed, that encourages members to find ways to manipulate the score. The Manufactured Spending crowd would be all over this, manufacturing scores in the thousands, just for the fun of it. If you think members play games to inflate post count, just watch what they do when you give them a score.
If and when a Helpful button has established a successful track record I'd be willing to run a short trial of publicly viewable score. I would not expect the trial to be a shining success, but maybe it would surprise me.
If and when a Helpful button has established a successful track record I'd be willing to run a short trial of publicly viewable score. I would not expect the trial to be a shining success, but maybe it would surprise me.
Jan 17, 2015 | 10:39 am
#684
FlyerTalk Evangelist, Ambassador: World of Hyatt
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: New Jersey
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, UA Silver, dirt elsewhere
Posts: 47,401
I was just providing information, I was not discussing anything about the current number of votes or percentages.
Jan 17, 2015 | 10:52 am
#685
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: HIO
Programs: AS MVPG 75K (Pure AS)
Posts: 194
Perhaps the furthest I'd think it would make sense to go in terms of community signaling would be being able to sort a thread by number of Helpfuls/Likes. But even that is a bit troublesome, I'd imagine, because there's so much context to be gained by seeing discussions in order. (However, given that it would be an explicit choice a viewer could make, there's an argument for caveat browsor there.)
Jan 17, 2015 | 11:21 am
#686
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 72,111
Perhaps the furthest I'd think it would make sense to go in terms of community signaling would be being able to sort a thread by number of Helpfuls/Likes. But even that is a bit troublesome, I'd imagine, because there's so much context to be gained by seeing discussions in order. (However, given that it would be an explicit choice a viewer could make, there's an argument for caveat browsor there.)
Jan 17, 2015 | 11:46 am
#687
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN A-list preferred, United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 22,848
this type of implementation was what I was envisioning when I read the initial proposal. It would act as a means of indication to the poster without being a broad signaling mechanism to the community (beyond the reading of that specific thread and coming across a message that had a ton of likes). In theory, we would get a somewhat Skinnerian positive behavior reinforcement without the explicit ill will to others of a negative indicator (an "Dislike", for instance). Gamers or political likers could click to their heart's content with little systemwide consequence (spuriously making some posters feel good - the horror!), but some of the +1'ers would feel this is a good substitute and others who are silent (ahem, me) would click in support.
I have really enjoyed this discussion. I feel I have learned a tremendous amount about what could go wrong with all the fancy scoring schemes that I once thought were so promising.
The consensus here seems to me to favor:
1. A Helpful button that shows the total count for a given post.
2. Per-member totals of votes received are NOT viewable by the public.
3. Total of votes received are NOT viewable privately by the recipient.
4. Vote count has no effect on thread display. I.e., no filtering option.
I consider the preceding features to be mandatory. Feature 5 would have made that list too prior to this recent post.
The next two functions are a trade-off between value and implementation cost, and I don't yet have any information on the latter. So these will take time to research:
5. The Helpful button should be able to be turned on and off by forum.
6. Members should have the ability to disable all display of the new functionality.
Remaining questions to be discussed further here:
7. Should voters' handles be publicly viewable? I lean to Yes on this.
8. Should per-member totals be viewable by moderators? (This might not be an issue within TalkBoard's scope, but there's no harm in talking about it here.)
9. Should there be a post count and tenure requirement for access to the reader feedback functionality (like access to OMNI)? This might tie in with the implementation of item 6.
Last edited by nsx; Jan 18, 2015 at 1:39 am Reason: added item 9
Jan 17, 2015 | 1:18 pm
#688
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Home
Programs: AA, Delta, UA & thanks to FTers for my PC Gold!
Posts: 7,674
I obviously was aiming too high since the poll is now closed with 725 votes.
For me, Slickdeals isn't a social media either. The most obvious examples of "social" media are sites like Twitter or Facebook. If you consider FT in the same league as Twitter and Facebook, I don't know what to say.
Having said that, I am fully aware there are social threads on FT, such as the lounge threads. Due to our core missions, FT does facilitate certain social exchange/gathering such as DOs. FT has matured with a good number of devoted members participating in discussion. Over the years, passionate FTers develop connections and friendship that helps signify the social side of FT, but that doesn't make FT a "social" medium by default. YMMV.
I find this one of the more bizarre comments in the thread. FT not social? Unless you see FT only as a fact repository, it's one of the most obvious examples of social media on the web!
Having said that, I am fully aware there are social threads on FT, such as the lounge threads. Due to our core missions, FT does facilitate certain social exchange/gathering such as DOs. FT has matured with a good number of devoted members participating in discussion. Over the years, passionate FTers develop connections and friendship that helps signify the social side of FT, but that doesn't make FT a "social" medium by default. YMMV.
Jan 17, 2015 | 4:45 pm
#689
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: in the vicinity of SFO
Programs: AA 2MM (LT-PLT, PPro for this year)
Posts: 19,784
Certainly; it's just the one most often named where it will be "abused" or "gamed," including in one post further back of yours that I was responding to, which you responded by quibbling about "like" vs. "helpful."
I'm still trying to find an explanation for how this is going to be abused that doesn't boil down to "people might click 'helpful' on something that was factually incorrect, and then other people might misunderstand that to be authoritative."
Nobody has proposed that, and at least a few of us who are in favor of the mechanism in general have actively disclaimed that.
Except for #3, that sounds about right; #3 is still, IMO, harmless but it also doesn't add a lot of value (I'm sure, as you noted above, it would be gamed, but I don't think that gaming for pure egoboo score is likely to come out in ways that are intrusive on others; if people with too much time on their hands really want to waste time liking one anothers' posts on Omni/Games, I don't see the harm in it, and that's definitely where they should be suggested to go if they feel the need.)
Nice to have if it's easy to accommodate, although who then gets to decide which forums it's turned on/off for?
IMO, also nice to have if it's easy to accommodate, although I think the way it was phrased up-thread ("opt out completely" -- e.g. to disable other people voting on your posts) is probably disruptive and confusing. If the main display is itself tasteful and not too obtrusive, I don't see an option to hide it as a necessity. If it's not tasteful, or it's huge, even those of us who like the feature are likely to be bothered by it.
IMO, this is a good bit less valuable if they're not. It's probably still worth having as an engagement mechanism, but it no longer has an individualized signaling function.
I don't see any real utility or harm in this; if there were a down-voting mechanism and we were trying to do a full-on reputation system, this would be necessary, but as you've said, the consensus is strongly against that.
I'm still trying to find an explanation for how this is going to be abused that doesn't boil down to "people might click 'helpful' on something that was factually incorrect, and then other people might misunderstand that to be authoritative."
The consensus here seems to me to favor:
1. A Helpful button that shows the total count for a given post.
2. Per-member totals of votes received are NOT viewable by the public.
3. Total of votes received are NOT viewable privately by the recipient.
4. Vote count has no effect on thread display. I.e., no filtering option.
1. A Helpful button that shows the total count for a given post.
2. Per-member totals of votes received are NOT viewable by the public.
3. Total of votes received are NOT viewable privately by the recipient.
4. Vote count has no effect on thread display. I.e., no filtering option.
The next two functions are a trade-off between value and implementation cost, and I don't yet have any information on the latter. So these will take time to research:
5. The Helpful button should be able to be turned on and off by forum.
5. The Helpful button should be able to be turned on and off by forum.
6. Members should have the ability to disable all display of the new functionality.
Remaining questions to be discussed further here:
7. Should voters' handles be publicly viewable? I lean to Yes on this.
7. Should voters' handles be publicly viewable? I lean to Yes on this.
8. Should per-member totals be viewable by moderators? (This might not be an issue within TalkBoard's scope, but there's no harm in talking about it here.)
Jan 17, 2015 | 5:31 pm
#690
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN A-list preferred, United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 22,848