View Poll Results: Q: What is your view on FlyerTalk implementing a "Helpful" button feature?
Support
433
59.72%
Oppose
275
37.93%
No opinion
17
2.34%
Voters: 725. You may not vote on this poll
Jan 12, 2015, 9:07 pm
Last edit by: Prospero
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Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people wont take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
(lower right wiki corner)Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people wont take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
"Like" Button?
Jan 14, 2015 | 12:04 am
#601
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: in the vicinity of SFO
Programs: AA 2MM (LT-PLT, PPro for this year)
Posts: 19,784
On a shared level, there are also sticky threads, and stuff that goes out in TalkMail or on the front page.
Jan 14, 2015 | 12:25 am
#602
Moderator: United Airlines
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SFO
Programs: UA LT Plat 2MM, Hyatt Discoverist, Marriott LT Gold, Hilton Silver, IHG Plat
Posts: 73,053
I'm less confident as I can see on some forums and threads a snarky reply to a new member earning a bunch of 'helpful' votes even though the post wasn't helpful at all but quite the opposite. Others may agree, for example, that new members should dig for rather than be spoon fed answers and so could use the tool as a sign of agreement with the snark rather than its intended purpose.
I'm not convinced this is actually something FT needs this far along the line regardless of what others sites do on the topic. Just MHO.
I'm not convinced this is actually something FT needs this far along the line regardless of what others sites do on the topic. Just MHO.
So in case it isn't clear, I think this would be a bad change for FT. I do not see the value and I see problems.
Jan 14, 2015 | 3:56 am
#603
Join Date: Jul 2007
Programs: QFF
Posts: 5,304
I would rather see FT shut down completely then have any sort of "like" system dumped on everyone.
If this useless, unnecessary waste happens, there must be a way for a user to completely disable it, as they can with signatures and setting others to ignore.
If this useless, unnecessary waste happens, there must be a way for a user to completely disable it, as they can with signatures and setting others to ignore.
Jan 14, 2015 | 10:18 am
#604
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: HIO
Programs: AS MVPG 75K (Pure AS)
Posts: 194
How do you think it is taken care of with self-policing? Not sure how that would work.
People clearly think that post count is a valid metric that means something here @ FT. Some people with a lot of posts often tend to get away with a lot of crap that doesn't belong. If they now also have a lot of "likes", most people won't look to see if they were really deserved. They'll just trust the system.
People clearly think that post count is a valid metric that means something here @ FT. Some people with a lot of posts often tend to get away with a lot of crap that doesn't belong. If they now also have a lot of "likes", most people won't look to see if they were really deserved. They'll just trust the system.
There will always be a (reasonably small, I think) subset of people who - for either competitiveness or self-worth reasons - will take a new metric and make it their mission to game it. I don't think that's a reason to avoid change, although it is an argument to proceed carefully (e.g., with a limited rollout) and observe the results.
My comment about self-policing is that anybody who has done some reading on FT for some time starts to build a list (or a fuzzy sketch or a hazy image or however your brain works) in their head of who is reliable/helpful/thoughtful/funny/"a good poster" - however you define that - and who is not. Heck, just reading through a couple of hundred messages in this one thread can give you that sense. So if someone's posts are inaccurate, thoughtless, or always written in screaming all caps, yet they garnered 100 likes, observers will modify their mental list/sketch/impression accordingly.
The person will be self-liking into ridiculousness. Plus, I heard that if you self-like too much, your hand will freeze that way.
Jan 14, 2015 | 10:21 am
#605
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis: DL DM charter 2.3MM
Programs: A3*Gold, SPG Plat, HyattDiamond, MarriottPP, LHW exAccess, ICI, Raffles Amb, NW PE MM, TWA Gold MM
Posts: 102,617
This is an interesting observation. In many ways. I think it says quite a lot about the TB elections, but to stay on topic, I'll keep it to this poll.
Nsx said the reason for re-opening this feature request was his pledge to his constituency, so a support of some 385 votes in this poll is to be expected. Some of the proponents are campaigning for this poll while I haven't seen any of opponents do, so I guess that means the final result will be a majority of 'support' when the poll closes.
But if the like feature was the main platform of nsx's TB candidacy, what does another poll really say that the TB election didn't say? Are we just polling nsx's TB candidacy all over again?
Of course we can't know that each poll'er meant by their vote. My point is a poll can only go so far in aiding the TB for a decision. I think we elect a complete TB to make balanced and informed decisions for us using all available information. A poll can be given more or less weight depending on circumstances, but I guess what I am saying is that it still is just a poll.
I very much appreciate TB having this thread open and nsx for returning to the thread and keeping outlining his thoughts. I've seen a lot of very good comments here and I hope this thread have been as helpful to TB as intended. At this point I find it difficult to add anything substantial.
Nsx said the reason for re-opening this feature request was his pledge to his constituency, so a support of some 385 votes in this poll is to be expected. Some of the proponents are campaigning for this poll while I haven't seen any of opponents do, so I guess that means the final result will be a majority of 'support' when the poll closes.
But if the like feature was the main platform of nsx's TB candidacy, what does another poll really say that the TB election didn't say? Are we just polling nsx's TB candidacy all over again?
Of course we can't know that each poll'er meant by their vote. My point is a poll can only go so far in aiding the TB for a decision. I think we elect a complete TB to make balanced and informed decisions for us using all available information. A poll can be given more or less weight depending on circumstances, but I guess what I am saying is that it still is just a poll.
I very much appreciate TB having this thread open and nsx for returning to the thread and keeping outlining his thoughts. I've seen a lot of very good comments here and I hope this thread have been as helpful to TB as intended. At this point I find it difficult to add anything substantial.
Jan 14, 2015 | 3:48 pm
#606
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: EWR
Posts: 2,167
My concerns are along these lines. In controversial / polarized discussion I see this "like"/"helpful" as just another way for the fractions to express their differences and PROVE one position is more right than another. (And a Dislike would make it even worst.) While in a nice clam/civil/factual world, the like could be useful, much of FT has an edge and this concept will just sharpen that edge. The nature of FT is just different from FB.
So in case it isn't clear, I think this would be a bad change for FT. I do not see the value and I see problems.
So in case it isn't clear, I think this would be a bad change for FT. I do not see the value and I see problems.
Jan 14, 2015 | 6:25 pm
#607
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: FIND ME ON TWITTER FOR THE LATEST
Posts: 27,729
On the other had, those discussing miles, status-- how to use them, get them, etc., etc.-- while there very well be stupid use of "helpful" in those discussions/threads for all the reason presented in this thread-- they should still be able to thank a member for their contribution/knowledge or simply be able to help others find "the good stuff" with such use of the feature.
Of course I say this as the author of some of the most historically helpful posts/threads on flyertalk-- so that may color my view slightly.
Jan 14, 2015 | 6:30 pm
#608
Moderator: Hilton Honors forums
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Marietta, Georgia, United States
Posts: 25,432
Forget the like. Instead, thank you...
Jan 14, 2015 | 6:39 pm
#609
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: FIND ME ON TWITTER FOR THE LATEST
Posts: 27,729
Jan 14, 2015 | 7:19 pm
#610
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Either at the shooting range or anywhere good beer can be found...
Posts: 52,783
I'd argue though that those engaging in the pointless "battles" (we have the same at AA presently) deserve what they get; if their "friends" or "allies" want to play games with "helpful" votes, it's stupid, but not much stupider than the thread itself at that point.
On the other had, those discussing miles, status-- how to use them, get them, etc., etc.-- while there very well be stupid use of "helpful" in those discussions/threads for all the reason presented in this thread-- they should still be able to thank a member for their contribution/knowledge or simply be able to help others find "the good stuff" with such use of the feature.
Of course I say this as the author of some of the most historically helpful posts/threads on flyertalk-- so that may color my view slightly.
On the other had, those discussing miles, status-- how to use them, get them, etc., etc.-- while there very well be stupid use of "helpful" in those discussions/threads for all the reason presented in this thread-- they should still be able to thank a member for their contribution/knowledge or simply be able to help others find "the good stuff" with such use of the feature.
Of course I say this as the author of some of the most historically helpful posts/threads on flyertalk-- so that may color my view slightly.
Jan 14, 2015 | 7:22 pm
#611
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: FIND ME ON TWITTER FOR THE LATEST
Posts: 27,729
Without a "helpful" button, members can still thank others for their contributions by posting "thank you" or something similar. I'd argue that a "thank you" post would be more meaningful than a "helpful" button being clicked, because it takes more to post "thank you," rather than just clicking a button.
Jan 14, 2015 | 7:24 pm
#612
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis: DL DM charter 2.3MM
Programs: A3*Gold, SPG Plat, HyattDiamond, MarriottPP, LHW exAccess, ICI, Raffles Amb, NW PE MM, TWA Gold MM
Posts: 102,617
People can also use PMs or email to thank others for being especially helpful. This might be more meaningful to the recipient than a public (possibly anonymous) click of some like button.
Jan 14, 2015 | 7:43 pm
#613
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: FIND ME ON TWITTER FOR THE LATEST
Posts: 27,729
, and they are FAR more meaningful, no question about it. But I'd maintain that seeing a post you find helpful and indicating same, and the ability for others to see that, -does- serve a purpose (a purpose beyond the "ego-boost", etc.-- whatever is being claimed) for other, mostly newer members.
Obviously not everyone agrees-- some disagree strenuously-- and that's great. But, personally-- and obviously a chunk of people agree and others violently disagree-- I think it's a simple addition that would help and make FT a better and more informative place. Personally, I do not see it as remotely similar to the role "like" plays on Facebook in any way, shape or form.
Last edited by JonNYC; Jan 14, 2015 at 7:50 pm
Jan 14, 2015 | 8:26 pm
#614
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: SEA
Programs: AS MVPG, MGM Rewards Gold, Hhonors ???, National Executive
Posts: 2,708
There will always be a (reasonably small, I think) subset of people who - for either competitiveness or self-worth reasons - will take a new metric and make it their mission to game it. I don't think that's a reason to avoid change, although it is an argument to proceed carefully (e.g., with a limited rollout) and observe the results.
My comment about self-policing is that anybody who has done some reading on FT for some time starts to build a list (or a fuzzy sketch or a hazy image or however your brain works) in their head of who is reliable/helpful/thoughtful/funny/"a good poster" - however you define that - and who is not.
Jan 14, 2015 | 9:26 pm
#615
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: ICT
Programs: AA ExP
Posts: 1,860
I'm glad TB is moving on this and the clear majority of FTers wants this! ^