View Poll Results: Q: What is your view on FlyerTalk implementing a "Helpful" button feature?
Support
433
59.72%
Oppose
275
37.93%
No opinion
17
2.34%
Voters: 725. You may not vote on this poll
Jan 12, 2015, 9:07 pm
Last edit by: Prospero
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Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people wont take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
(lower right wiki corner)Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people wont take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
"Like" Button?
Dec 29, 2014 | 1:51 pm
#436
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Aug 2002
Programs: UALifetimePremierGold, Marriott LifetimeTitanium
Posts: 74,092
That all being said, after being a resident on FT for going on two months now, I no longer believe a like system of any kind should be introduced on this forum. I made a new friend on this forum, an experienced flyer who pointed out to me that people who fly a lot are typically A type personalities. They are outspoken. Assertive. Aggressive. That's why the companies are paying them to go wherever they are going all the time.
This is certainly one of the most fractious boards I've ever participated in. If I made a post commenting on how many times UA has changed the color scheme of their airplanes over the last 10 years, eventually someone is sure to ferret an argument out of the comment, myself included. But unlike a lot of other boards, the arguments made here are more often well considered, informative, and engaging, rather than just name calling. I appreciate the tension between differing ideas, and find this very thread to be one such example.
This is certainly one of the most fractious boards I've ever participated in. If I made a post commenting on how many times UA has changed the color scheme of their airplanes over the last 10 years, eventually someone is sure to ferret an argument out of the comment, myself included. But unlike a lot of other boards, the arguments made here are more often well considered, informative, and engaging, rather than just name calling. I appreciate the tension between differing ideas, and find this very thread to be one such example.
Cheers.
Dec 29, 2014 | 2:02 pm
#437
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis: DL DM charter 2.3MM
Programs: A3*Gold, SPG Plat, HyattDiamond, MarriottPP, LHW exAccess, ICI, Raffles Amb, NW PE MM, TWA Gold MM
Posts: 102,617
When this thread was moved about a month ago, an admin pm'd me about the move, because I had participated materially in this discussion when I first joined.
Part of the experience upon which I drew my former advocacy for a like post button here came from my residency on other boards owned by IB, running software identical to FT's, but with the like feature enabled.
Since FT'rs never really had the opportunity to truly test this feature, let me briefly describe how it works:
When a reader clicks the like icon, a pop up window appears, enabling the reader to type a brief message to the poster about why they liked the post. When the poster logs back in and checks "MyFlyerTalk", the message appears, along with which post was liked. In this particular IB iteration, the specific number of likes is not shown to other users, but the accumulation of likes is reflected in the number of "bars" showing under the poster's name.
Everyone starts with one good reputation bar. Every 100 likes adds another bar up until 5 bars, after which it takes 200 likes to earn subsequent bars, and perhaps 300 or 400 more likes to earn the final 10th bar, after which no more reputation bars can be earned, regardless of additional likes. Believe it or not, when one reviews the contributory content of users with the full 10 bars... those bars are for the most part well deserved, because the likes cannot all come from the same people. Here's why:
Suppose Jackal genuinely liked my post on this thread, and clicked the button and told me so, and then Jackal also just so happened to genuinely like another post I made on another thread in a different section of FT. Jackal would be prevented from liking me again, until he liked enough other posts by other users first. This prevents friends from liking each other back and forth over and over.
So what if the post I made in the other forum is of more helpfulness than the post made in this forum? Too bad. Jackal still cannot like it, because he already liked one of my posts once, and cannot like another one of my posts again until he has found other posts by other users on the forum worthy of liking. But if my post in the other forum was really that helpful, Jackal woudn't have to like it, because presumably other people who found it useful would like it, which is how the system balances itself.
That all being said, after being a resident on FT for going on two months now, I no longer believe a like system of any kind should be introduced on this forum. I made a new friend on this forum, an experienced flyer who pointed out to me that people who fly a lot are typically A type personalities. They are outspoken. Assertive. Aggressive. That's why the companies are paying them to go wherever they are going all the time.
This is certainly one of the most fractious boards I've ever participated in. If I made a post commenting on how many times UA has changed the color scheme of their airplanes over the last 10 years, eventually someone is sure to ferret an argument out of the comment, myself included. But unlike a lot of other boards, the arguments made here are more often well considered, informative, and engaging, rather than just name calling. I appreciate the tension between differing ideas, and find this very thread to be one such example.
Another distinguishing feature I've found with the FT forum is the TalkBoard... a panel of persons that appear to have a role that is somewhat different than "Administrators" or "Moderators". I'm not entirely sure what role the Talkboard plays in the guidance of this site, but if the virtues and values that are self evident in NSX's posts and handling of the discussion of this issue are of any example, then we are in very good hands. Thank you NSX!
Part of the experience upon which I drew my former advocacy for a like post button here came from my residency on other boards owned by IB, running software identical to FT's, but with the like feature enabled.
Since FT'rs never really had the opportunity to truly test this feature, let me briefly describe how it works:
When a reader clicks the like icon, a pop up window appears, enabling the reader to type a brief message to the poster about why they liked the post. When the poster logs back in and checks "MyFlyerTalk", the message appears, along with which post was liked. In this particular IB iteration, the specific number of likes is not shown to other users, but the accumulation of likes is reflected in the number of "bars" showing under the poster's name.
Everyone starts with one good reputation bar. Every 100 likes adds another bar up until 5 bars, after which it takes 200 likes to earn subsequent bars, and perhaps 300 or 400 more likes to earn the final 10th bar, after which no more reputation bars can be earned, regardless of additional likes. Believe it or not, when one reviews the contributory content of users with the full 10 bars... those bars are for the most part well deserved, because the likes cannot all come from the same people. Here's why:
Suppose Jackal genuinely liked my post on this thread, and clicked the button and told me so, and then Jackal also just so happened to genuinely like another post I made on another thread in a different section of FT. Jackal would be prevented from liking me again, until he liked enough other posts by other users first. This prevents friends from liking each other back and forth over and over.
So what if the post I made in the other forum is of more helpfulness than the post made in this forum? Too bad. Jackal still cannot like it, because he already liked one of my posts once, and cannot like another one of my posts again until he has found other posts by other users on the forum worthy of liking. But if my post in the other forum was really that helpful, Jackal woudn't have to like it, because presumably other people who found it useful would like it, which is how the system balances itself.
That all being said, after being a resident on FT for going on two months now, I no longer believe a like system of any kind should be introduced on this forum. I made a new friend on this forum, an experienced flyer who pointed out to me that people who fly a lot are typically A type personalities. They are outspoken. Assertive. Aggressive. That's why the companies are paying them to go wherever they are going all the time.
This is certainly one of the most fractious boards I've ever participated in. If I made a post commenting on how many times UA has changed the color scheme of their airplanes over the last 10 years, eventually someone is sure to ferret an argument out of the comment, myself included. But unlike a lot of other boards, the arguments made here are more often well considered, informative, and engaging, rather than just name calling. I appreciate the tension between differing ideas, and find this very thread to be one such example.
Another distinguishing feature I've found with the FT forum is the TalkBoard... a panel of persons that appear to have a role that is somewhat different than "Administrators" or "Moderators". I'm not entirely sure what role the Talkboard plays in the guidance of this site, but if the virtues and values that are self evident in NSX's posts and handling of the discussion of this issue are of any example, then we are in very good hands. Thank you NSX!
Dec 29, 2014 | 2:03 pm
#438
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN A-list preferred, United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 22,848
Tried? Nope. Not even seen by anyone on FlyerTalk until the brief internal demo last week.
Tested? The internal demo was not and could not be a test of how our members would use the feature.
Discussed at length in secret? No again. I decided from the start to have the discussion right here in TalkBoard Topics. There have been subjects which were discussed primarily in the private TalkBoard forum, but not this one.
I don't understand see how you are reaching your conclusions.
Dec 29, 2014 | 2:32 pm
#439
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Either at the shooting range or anywhere good beer can be found...
Posts: 52,783
Yes all seems to be putting the cart before the horse to me.
Lets casually ask for member 'thoughts' on something tried and tested and discussed at length in secret by others, a minor detail not disclosed initially, until it was kind of blurted out by accident, and then the wallpapering began.
Isn't that how Zimbabwe 'works'?
Lets casually ask for member 'thoughts' on something tried and tested and discussed at length in secret by others, a minor detail not disclosed initially, until it was kind of blurted out by accident, and then the wallpapering began.
Isn't that how Zimbabwe 'works'?
Huh?
Tried? Nope. Not even seen by anyone on FlyerTalk until the brief internal demo last week.
Tested? The internal demo was not and could not be a test of how our members would use the feature.
Discussed at length in secret? No again. I decided from the start to have the discussion right here in TalkBoard Topics. There have been subjects which were discussed primarily in the private TalkBoard forum, but not this one.
I don't understand see how you are reaching your conclusions.
Tried? Nope. Not even seen by anyone on FlyerTalk until the brief internal demo last week.
Tested? The internal demo was not and could not be a test of how our members would use the feature.
Discussed at length in secret? No again. I decided from the start to have the discussion right here in TalkBoard Topics. There have been subjects which were discussed primarily in the private TalkBoard forum, but not this one.
I don't understand see how you are reaching your conclusions.
Dec 29, 2014 | 2:47 pm
#440
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN A-list preferred, United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 22,848
Because it was not intended to show what kinds of posts would draw Helpful votes from what members. That can only be tested in an active public forum.
The internal demo was just to show TB members and moderators the look and feel of the capabilities of the available plug-in. Nothing more.
The internal demo was just to show TB members and moderators the look and feel of the capabilities of the available plug-in. Nothing more.
Dec 29, 2014 | 3:29 pm
#441
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: OCONUS & UNDERWAY
Programs: Presidential Airways High Value Target, Catfish Air Flare, Hootch Honors Gold
Posts: 9,576
My take, fwiw,
In OMNI/PR land, I guarantee you it'd be gamed within hours if not minutes!
If it is decided that it will be implemented, it I would recommend OMNI/PR be left out. Kind of like it is with post count. Otherwise you're going to end up with a team of people with 5000 "likes" inside of a week.
I'd also recommend OMNI/PR be surrounded by barbwire and guardtowers, but that's just for everyone's protection.
Regards,
-Bouncer-
PS: I spend the vast majority of my time there. I've seen people get cut. Cut bad. Place can be... gritty. Yarr.
In OMNI/PR land, I guarantee you it'd be gamed within hours if not minutes!
If it is decided that it will be implemented, it I would recommend OMNI/PR be left out. Kind of like it is with post count. Otherwise you're going to end up with a team of people with 5000 "likes" inside of a week.
I'd also recommend OMNI/PR be surrounded by barbwire and guardtowers, but that's just for everyone's protection.
Regards,
-Bouncer-
PS: I spend the vast majority of my time there. I've seen people get cut. Cut bad. Place can be... gritty. Yarr.
Dec 29, 2014 | 3:43 pm
#442
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN A-list preferred, United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 22,848
Dec 29, 2014 | 3:45 pm
#443
Join Date: May 2009
Location: South Park, CO
Programs: Tegridy Elite
Posts: 5,677
It shouldn't have to, and maybe it doesn't...no idea what IB has planned with its resources. But given the slowness sometimes seen, the point was merely that if there were a prioritization, one is more important, that's all. If they can walk and chew gum simultaneously, great. Though I still am not in favor of the feature.
Dec 29, 2014 | 4:01 pm
#444
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: FIND ME ON TWITTER FOR THE LATEST
Posts: 27,729
I am still trying to figure out how anyone would gain from launching a conspiracy to implement this feature on FlyerTalk.
Can we please return to discussing the reasons as to whether or not a like or informative or site-wide reader feedback or whatever button should be activated as a feature of FlyerTalk instead of speculating on conspiracy theories and hidden agendas?
Can we please return to discussing the reasons as to whether or not a like or informative or site-wide reader feedback or whatever button should be activated as a feature of FlyerTalk instead of speculating on conspiracy theories and hidden agendas?
Dec 29, 2014 | 4:45 pm
#445
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Either at the shooting range or anywhere good beer can be found...
Posts: 52,783
My take, fwiw,
In OMNI/PR land, I guarantee you it'd be gamed within hours if not minutes!
If it is decided that it will be implemented, it I would recommend OMNI/PR be left out. Kind of like it is with post count. Otherwise you're going to end up with a team of people with 5000 "likes" inside of a week.
I'd also recommend OMNI/PR be surrounded by barbwire and guardtowers, but that's just for everyone's protection.
Regards,
-Bouncer-
PS: I spend the vast majority of my time there. I've seen people get cut. Cut bad. Place can be... gritty. Yarr.
In OMNI/PR land, I guarantee you it'd be gamed within hours if not minutes!
If it is decided that it will be implemented, it I would recommend OMNI/PR be left out. Kind of like it is with post count. Otherwise you're going to end up with a team of people with 5000 "likes" inside of a week.
I'd also recommend OMNI/PR be surrounded by barbwire and guardtowers, but that's just for everyone's protection.
Regards,
-Bouncer-
PS: I spend the vast majority of my time there. I've seen people get cut. Cut bad. Place can be... gritty. Yarr.
The current incarnation of the button cannot be limited by forum, so if enacted, it means OMNI/PR gets it too.
Dec 29, 2014 | 5:04 pm
#446
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN A-list preferred, United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 22,848
Given that a forum-specific reader feedback button is not currently available I for one am going to proceed very slowly and carefully. While we could run a short trial of site-wide reader feedback, that would be largely pointless unless we knew that we could have forum-specific reader feedback in the near future.
Dec 29, 2014 | 6:09 pm
#447
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,077
That's a straw man, unless you inadvertently overlooked my statement just a few posts above yours:
To repeat: The unmodified off-the-shelf plug-in is a non-starter. We need a path to a forum-specific reader feedback before turning anything on. Since I'm the instigator of this discussion I'm pretty sure the rest of TalkBoard isn't going to ramrod a site-wide version through over my objection.
To repeat: The unmodified off-the-shelf plug-in is a non-starter. We need a path to a forum-specific reader feedback before turning anything on. Since I'm the instigator of this discussion I'm pretty sure the rest of TalkBoard isn't going to ramrod a site-wide version through over my objection.
Who knows the answers to the above questions? I would think that having some of these questions answered would make for more informed voting opportunities if these answers came well before a TB vote related to this topic hits.
If this is about a trial to get the most knowledge about how this may work, then what is wrong with maximizing data points and letting the trial be site-wide? Why should any forum on FT be excluded from the feature being enabled even post-re-trial, if the feature is so liked/helpful?
Last edited by GUWonder; Dec 29, 2014 at 6:16 pm
Dec 29, 2014 | 6:21 pm
#448
Moderator, Finnair
Join Date: May 2011
Location: MMX (CPH)
Programs: EB Diamond, AY+ Gold, A3*G, Strawberry Lifetime Platinum, GHA Discovery Titanium, SJ Prio Black
Posts: 15,184
This is not 'just a button', which is exactly why this discussion is 400+ posts with some very good comments and different perspectives on the matter.
I appreciate nsx coming back on and describe his views a bit more in detail. I understand the will to start with an open mind, discuss all angles and find consensus. That is good. However, IMHO some of the confusion comes from nsx pushing the issue without giving more details. Now I'd say that has been cleared up a bit and we could continue?
I appreciate nsx coming back on and describe his views a bit more in detail. I understand the will to start with an open mind, discuss all angles and find consensus. That is good. However, IMHO some of the confusion comes from nsx pushing the issue without giving more details. Now I'd say that has been cleared up a bit and we could continue?
Dec 29, 2014 | 6:22 pm
#449
Join Date: Aug 2004
Programs: AA (EP), Hilton (Diamond), Marriott Bonvoy (Titanium)
Posts: 9,131
Thanks very much for the recap and the details, Flyertall!
This is especially helpful because it describes an algorithm for a partially-safeguarded reputation mechanism. I suppose that the underlying idea is that those new to FT or new to a forum would pay more attention to posts by members with higher reputation scores.
I was hoping for a somewhat different mechanism that would be focused on posts and not posters. The idea being that a few posts in a thread are good information while many are questions, speculation, incorrect information, etc. Obviously this concept is only meaningful in a forum largely dedicated to providing information. It has no meaning in a social or conversational forum.
From my own experience in various platforms, I'm skeptical that a mechanism for per-poster reputation would be helpful to FT, but I have no objection if the TB wishes to implement it. It's possible that it would end up being a good thing.
Independently of a per-poster reputation mechanism, I urge the TB and IB to consider a per-post helpfulness score system. While no such mechanism could ever be foolproof or perfect, I believe it could be useful as a tool in managing and finding information buried within large threads.
Everyone starts with one good reputation bar. Every 100 likes adds another bar up until 5 bars, after which it takes 200 likes to earn subsequent bars, and perhaps 300 or 400 more likes to earn the final 10th bar, after which no more reputation bars can be earned, regardless of additional likes. Believe it or not, when one reviews the contributory content of users with the full 10 bars... those bars are for the most part well deserved
I was hoping for a somewhat different mechanism that would be focused on posts and not posters. The idea being that a few posts in a thread are good information while many are questions, speculation, incorrect information, etc. Obviously this concept is only meaningful in a forum largely dedicated to providing information. It has no meaning in a social or conversational forum.
From my own experience in various platforms, I'm skeptical that a mechanism for per-poster reputation would be helpful to FT, but I have no objection if the TB wishes to implement it. It's possible that it would end up being a good thing.
Independently of a per-poster reputation mechanism, I urge the TB and IB to consider a per-post helpfulness score system. While no such mechanism could ever be foolproof or perfect, I believe it could be useful as a tool in managing and finding information buried within large threads.
Dec 29, 2014 | 6:56 pm
#450
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN A-list preferred, United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 22,848
Any proposal I am part of will outline a path here to forum-selective reader feedback. You will read it here with time to comment on that aspect in case it changes any opinions. When I said this process would be slow and careful I meant it.