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Old Timer's Airline Quiz and Discussion.

Old Timer's Airline Quiz and Discussion.

Old Mar 24, 2024, 9:58 pm
  #29101  
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Originally Posted by strickerj
1.Prior to the widespread adoption of radar systems, what were the primary navigational aids used by pilots for long-distance flights during the early 20th century? I was thinking LORAN (long-range navigation) until the part about the "early 20th century", as LORAN wasn't developed until WWII. But I can't really think of anything prior to that other than celestial navigation.
Now is as opportune time as any for me to reveal that I held off on requesting answers to questions 1-10 when I created them, so I looked at the suggested answers to 1, 2, and 10 for the first time about an hour ago.

Interestingly, you and I thought alike about question 1. Well, my thinking was also LORAN before simply giving up, whereas continued on with "celestial navigation".

It turns out, "celestial navigation" WAS the answer that my questioner had in mind.

In part because I was curious and in part because I felt #1 was a bit of trick question, I pressed on a little more and the questioner defended its answer in a fairly compelling manner, but it conceded that several precursors to ILS systems debuted in 1911 (radio compass), 1913 (gyroscopic compass), and 1918 (radio direction finder).

10. What was the first commercial aircraft to be entirely computer-designed, and which airline was the launch customer for this aircraft? I believe that was the 777, whose launch customer was United.
While the wording to question 10 is admittedly somewhat ambiguous, the intended answer predates it by quite a few years. After I reveal it, I'll present arguments as to why the intended answer is best, almost regardless of how one defines "entirely computer-designed".

Originally Posted by Gardyloo
2. Prior to the introduction of the Boeing 747, what was the largest commercial airliner in terms of passenger capacity? I was thinking the IL-62 at 198 pax capacity.
Originally Posted by jrl767
some stretch DC-8s were configured for 200+ in high-density or charter configuration (Icelandair, Capitol, Airlift International, Overseas National, Seaboard World, Transamerica, and the like)
DC8 was the intended correct answer, and it's my favorite, but I wouldn't stake my life on it (v 707) in the absence of more evidence. Thus far, I've been able to determine that DC8s could theoretically accommodate as many as 269 passengers, but I've seen no proof that any of these actually existed. Meanwhile, the largest 707s I've heard of (El Al) only went up to 219 passengers.
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Old Mar 24, 2024, 10:02 pm
  #29102  
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1. Prior to the widespread adoption of radar systems, what were the primary navigational aids used by pilots for long-distance flights during the early 20th century?
celestial navigation
CORRECT


2. Prior to the introduction of the Boeing 747, what was the largest commercial airliner in terms of passenger capacity?
DC8
CORRECT for now, but this is still open for discussion/debate.


3. During World War II, this airline played a significant role in ferrying military aircraft and personnel. What was the name of the airline, and which routes did it operate during this period?

4. Which airline was the first to introduce in-flight entertainment systems on its aircraft, and what year did it occur?

5. The "Golden Age of Aviation" is often associated with a period between the two World Wars. Name two famous aircraft from this era and the airlines that operated them.

6. What was the significance of the 1930 Air Mail Act in the United States, and how did it impact the development of commercial aviation?

7. Which airline introduced the first-ever scheduled transatlantic jet service in 1958, and which aircraft did it utilize for this service?

8. In the 1980s, this airline made headlines by becoming the launch customer for a groundbreaking aircraft known for its advanced composite materials and efficient design. Name the airline and the aircraft.

9. Which airline was the launch customer for the Boeing 727, and what was the aircraft's maiden flight route?

10. What was the first commercial aircraft to be entirely computer-designed, and which airline was the launch customer for this aircraft?
earlier than 777

11. Until I was around 12 (so the rough time frame is1975-87), my mom and I went from Boston to Pittsburgh almost every year. We flew BOS-PIT nonstop on 3 different airlines during that time frame, though 2 of them were effectively the same airline (i.e. just a rebrand or a perhaps a merger + rebranding) on 4 different a/c types. One of these airlines also operated flights between BOS and PIT that stopped in 2 different places (XXX and YYY), which were each close to “great circle” compliance, but if you tried to hit both on the same flight, you’d be zigzagging. A fourth airline entered our orbit on the same route in the early 80s, but didn’t offer through fares (e.g. BOS-ZZZ and ZZZ-PIT were sold separately, and my mom always paid in cash at the beginning of each segment, but there must have been other sales channels too). This airline was folded into airline #5, which did offer through fares, but everything else remained the same (i.e. airplanes and XXX) until the end of the decade. So, I’m looking for 5 airlines, 4 a/c types (subtypes might have been applicable in 2 cases, but I don’t know them), and XXX/YYY/ZZZ.

12. Also during the same period, I flew between HYA and BOS every other weekend until my parents deemed I was old enough to take the bus instead. These flights were on 2 different airlines onboard 7 different a/c types. Several of the a/c types were common between these airlines, but in the case of the HYA-BOS route at the time, we’re looking for a 2 + 5 split. Please identify the airlines and the airplanes.
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Old Mar 25, 2024, 9:27 am
  #29103  
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Originally Posted by moondog

2. Prior to the introduction of the Boeing 747, what was the largest commercial airliner in terms of passenger capacity?
DC8
CORRECT for now, but this is still open for discussion/debate.
I do recall seeing a McDonnell Douglas print ad in Aviation Week & Space Technology way back in the day concerning the new at the time Super DC-8 series. If memory serves me correctly, the gist of the ad was why would an airline buy a 747 when McDonnell Douglas already had an airplane that was in effect a narrow body jumbo: the Super DC-8.

Of course, I cannot find this particular ad (it probably can be found in an AW&ST issue from the late 1960's) but I did find these ads....

https://www.departedflights.com/MDgenialgiant67.html

https://www.departedflights.com/MDbigone67.html
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Old Mar 25, 2024, 9:27 am
  #29104  
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Dupe post....
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Old Mar 25, 2024, 1:34 pm
  #29105  
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" ... (DC-8-61) typically carried 180220 passengers in mixed-class configuration, or 259 in high-density configuration.[25]"
Wikipedia link

the Wikipedia page for the 707 has an interesting paragraph on "Undeveloped Variants" that describes how Boeing was looking at further stretches of the -320C (which indeed maxed out at 219 seats) that would accommodate 260-280 passengers -- i.e., direct competition for the Stretch 8
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Old Mar 25, 2024, 3:34 pm
  #29106  
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Originally Posted by moondog
11. Until I was around 12 (so the rough time frame is1975-87), my mom and I went from Boston to Pittsburgh almost every year. We flew BOS-PIT nonstop on 3 different airlines during that time frame, though 2 of them were effectively the same airline (i.e. just a rebrand or a perhaps a merger + rebranding) on 4 different a/c types. One of these airlines also operated flights between BOS and PIT that stopped in 2 different places (XXX and YYY), which were each close to great circle compliance, but if you tried to hit both on the same flight, youd be zigzagging. A fourth airline entered our orbit on the same route in the early 80s, but didnt offer through fares (e.g. BOS-ZZZ and ZZZ-PIT were sold separately, and my mom always paid in cash at the beginning of each segment, but there must have been other sales channels too). This airline was folded into airline #5, which did offer through fares, but everything else remained the same (i.e. airplanes and XXX) until the end of the decade. So, Im looking for 5 airlines, 4 a/c types (subtypes might have been applicable in 2 cases, but I dont know them), and XXX/YYY/ZZZ.
11-
  • TWA had a fair amount of nonstop BOS<>PIT service in this timeframe, mainly with DC-9-10s but 707-100Bs and 727-100/200s likely also appeared
  • "merger + rebranding" is Allegheny / USAir; their most common jet on BOS<>PIT, was the DC-9-30, though I'd be willing to bet there was an occasional -50, BAC 1-11, and 727-200 ... Hartford (BDL) and Wilkes-Barre/Scranton (AVP) are both pretty much right on the great circle track, but I don't recall that AL ran from either point to BOS; Harrisburg (MDT) and Allentown (ABE) are a bit farther off the GC track but better candidates in terms of possible thru flights
  • "paid in cash ... each segment" is the giveaway for the connecting service over Newark/EWR on People Express (later Continental); the equipment of record was the 737-100/200 and 727-200
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Old Mar 25, 2024, 5:45 pm
  #29107  
 
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2. After a little bit of research, I've found out the following:

CL-44J entered service in 1966 with a capacity of 189 (billed as the largest trans-Atlantic plane at the time)

DC8-61 entered service in 1966 with a capacity of (up to) 220

IL-62 entered service in 1967 with a capacity of 198

747 entered service in 1969 with a capacity of 366

So the stretch DC-8 it is!
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Old Mar 26, 2024, 12:24 am
  #29108  
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11. Until I was around 12 (so the rough time frame is1975-87), my mom and I went from Boston to Pittsburgh almost every year. We flew BOS-PIT nonstop on 3 different airlines during that time frame, though 2 of them were effectively the same airline (i.e. just a rebrand or a perhaps a merger + rebranding) on 4 different a/c types. One of these airlines also operated flights between BOS and PIT that stopped in 2 different places (XXX and YYY), which were each close to “great circle” compliance, but if you tried to hit both on the same flight, you’d be zigzagging. A fourth airline entered our orbit on the same route in the early 80s, but didn’t offer through fares (e.g. BOS-ZZZ and ZZZ-PIT were sold separately, and my mom always paid in cash at the beginning of each segment, but there must have been other sales channels too). This airline was folded into airline #5, which did offer through fares, but everything else remained the same (i.e. airplanes and XXX) until the end of the decade. So, I’m looking for 5 airlines, 4 a/c types (subtypes might have been applicable in 2 cases, but I don’t know them), and XXX/YYY/ZZZ.

Originally Posted by jrl767
11-
  • TWA had a fair amount of nonstop BOS<>PIT service in this timeframe, mainly with DC-9-10s but 707-100Bs and 727-100/200s likely also appeared
  • "merger + rebranding" is Allegheny / USAir; their most common jet on BOS<>PIT, was the DC-9-30, though I'd be willing to bet there was an occasional -50, BAC 1-11, and 727-200 ... Hartford (BDL) and Wilkes-Barre/Scranton (AVP) are both pretty much right on the great circle track, but I don't recall that AL ran from either point to BOS; Harrisburg (MDT) and Allentown (ABE) are a bit farther off the GC track but better candidates in terms of possible thru flights
  • "paid in cash ... each segment" is the giveaway for the connecting service over Newark/EWR on People Express (later Continental); the equipment of record was the 737-100/200 and 727-200
Airlines
TW, AL, US, PE, CO
Correct, and well described

Airplanes
My first flight on a jet was onboard a TW 727-200 on this route (I might not have even been two yet, but I do remember the experience); I know this A/C type for sure because my mom saved a safety card from it and it's in one of my scrapbooks. We took TWA a few more times before they exited the market, and I think those were also on 727s, but DC9s were possible...no 707s for me, I would have remembered that, for sure.

Most of the AL and US flights were on DC9-30s. The other A/C type was not a BAC111, but now I'm feeling guilty about this part of the question because I'm pretty sure those things did ply at least 1 of the 5 relevant sectors. The A/C type I flew was quite similar to that one, though, but it had distinctive big oval windows.

You nailed the PE and CO phase correctly, yes 737s of both types, including some with the long engine covers, and some 727-200s (a repeat from TW so I'm not bolding it)

While I'm inclined to score this section as correct because BAC111s must have flown some of the AL/US routes, please see if you can come of with the other plane I mentioned.

Airports in the Middle
Of course EWR was the correct choice, given that Newark was ground zero for PE.

My Great Circle hint turned out to be a woefully misleading now that I look at the map, for which I humbly apologize (embarrassed emoji). Anyway, let me revise that to "continuous east-west progress in both cases". And, I guess it would have helped if I mentioned that both were true hubs at the time, though my mom focused on direct flights with fairly short ground times.

-need two airports between BOS and PIT that were AL/US hubs in order to close out this section

I'm sorry again for the confusion. I promise that question 12 is much more straight forward.
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Old Mar 26, 2024, 1:44 am
  #29109  
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Originally Posted by moondog
Airlines
TW, AL, US, PE, CO
Correct, and well described

Airplanes
Most of the AL and US flights were on DC9-30s. The other A/C type was not a BAC111, but now I'm feeling guilty about this part of the question because I'm pretty sure those things did ply at least 1 of the 5 relevant sectors. The A/C type I flew was quite similar to that one, though, but it had distinctive big oval windows.

While I'm inclined to score this section as correct because BAC111s must have flown some of the AL/US routes, please see if you can come of with the other plane I mentioned.
the only other jet with this distinctive feature was the Fokker F.28; however, AL/US didnt start flying them until after the Piedmont merger in summer 1989 (PI had inherited the jets when they absorbed Empire and their Syracuse/SYR hub ~1987)


Originally Posted by moondog
Airports in the Middle
Of course EWR was the correct choice, given that Newark was ground zero for PE.

let me revise that to "continuous east-west progress in both cases". And, I guess it would have helped if I mentioned that both were true hubs at the time, though my mom focused on direct flights with fairly short ground times.

-need two airports between BOS and PIT that were AL/US hubs in order to close out this section
the other AL/US hubs in the 1975-1982 timeframe were Philadelphia/PHL and Washington National/DCA; that said, I dont recall a lot of thru services touching both
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Old Mar 26, 2024, 12:53 pm
  #29110  
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10. What was the first commercial aircraft to be entirely computer-designed, and which airline was the launch customer for this aircraft?
earlier than 777
Take a wild guess of Dassault using in-house systems (what would evolve in CATIA) to design the Mercure, going to Air Inter and Air Inter only.
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Old Mar 26, 2024, 2:32 pm
  #29111  
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Originally Posted by moondog
11. Until I was around 12 (so the rough time frame is1975-87), my mom and I went from Boston to Pittsburgh almost every year. We flew BOS-PIT nonstop on 3 different airlines during that time frame, though 2 of them were effectively the same airline (i.e. just a rebrand or a perhaps a merger + rebranding) on 4 different a/c types. One of these airlines also operated flights between BOS and PIT that stopped in 2 different places (XXX and YYY), which were each close to great circle compliance, but if you tried to hit both on the same flight, youd be zigzagging. A fourth airline entered our orbit on the same route in the early 80s, but didnt offer through fares (e.g. BOS-ZZZ and ZZZ-PIT were sold separately, and my mom always paid in cash at the beginning of each segment, but there must have been other sales channels too). This airline was folded into airline #5, which did offer through fares, but everything else remained the same (i.e. airplanes and XXX) until the end of the decade. So, Im looking for 5 airlines, 4 a/c types (subtypes might have been applicable in 2 cases, but I dont know them), and XXX/YYY/ZZZ.



Airlines
TW, AL, US, PE, CO
Correct, and well described

Airplanes
My first flight on a jet was onboard a TW 727-200 on this route (I might not have even been two yet, but I do remember the experience); I know this A/C type for sure because my mom saved a safety card from it and it's in one of my scrapbooks. We took TWA a few more times before they exited the market, and I think those were also on 727s, but DC9s were possible...no 707s for me, I would have remembered that, for sure.

Most of the AL and US flights were on DC9-30s. The other A/C type was not a BAC111, but now I'm feeling guilty about this part of the question because I'm pretty sure those things did ply at least 1 of the 5 relevant sectors. The A/C type I flew was quite similar to that one, though, but it had distinctive big oval windows.

You nailed the PE and CO phase correctly, yes 737s of both types, including some with the long engine covers, and some 727-200s (a repeat from TW so I'm not bolding it)

While I'm inclined to score this section as correct because BAC111s must have flown some of the AL/US routes, please see if you can come of with the other plane I mentioned.

Airports in the Middle
Of course EWR was the correct choice, given that Newark was ground zero for PE.

My Great Circle hint turned out to be a woefully misleading now that I look at the map, for which I humbly apologize (embarrassed emoji). Anyway, let me revise that to "continuous east-west progress in both cases". And, I guess it would have helped if I mentioned that both were true hubs at the time, though my mom focused on direct flights with fairly short ground times.

-need two airports between BOS and PIT that were AL/US hubs in order to close out this section

I'm sorry again for the confusion. I promise that question 12 is much more straight forward.
Airplanes
Originally Posted by jrl767
the only other jet with this distinctive feature was the Fokker F.28; however, AL/US didnt start flying them until after the Piedmont merger in summer 1989 (PI had inherited the jets when they absorbed Empire and their Syracuse/SYR hub ~1987)
F28 is what I was thinking, but you have proven me wrong about this, so let's now regard the previous answer as completely correct.

Airports
the other AL/US hubs in the 1975-1982 timeframe were Philadelphia/PHL and Washington National/DCA; that said, I dont recall a lot of thru services touching both
By "zigzag" I was simply trying to describe what a line connecting all four points would look like (i.e. think a sine curve instead of a parabola), not imply that there actually was a flight that went through both.

One of your two guesses is correct, while the other one is incorrect.

The second correct airport isn't described as a hub on the Allegheny or USAir wiki pages (I'm not sure the hub concept was fully developed then), but it did have service to about 10 different cities timed with connections in mind.
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Old Mar 26, 2024, 3:12 pm
  #29112  
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Originally Posted by YVR Cockroach
10. What was the first commercial aircraft to be entirely computer-designed, and which airline was the launch customer for this aircraft?
earlier than 777

Take a wild guess of Dassault using in-house systems (what would evolve in CATIA) to design the Mercure, going to Air Inter and Air Inter only.
I didn't think about the Dassault Mercure at all, but that's definitely a compelling answer, and one that IMO is easier to defend against the desired answer than 777. But, the desired answer (which came along just a few years after the Mercure) had a much more profound impact on the role of computers in a/c design, especially within its own company, but definitely across the industry as a whole, as well.
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Old Mar 27, 2024, 5:52 pm
  #29113  
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Originally Posted by moondog
Airports
jrl767: the other AL/US hubs in the 1975-1982 timeframe were Philadelphia/ PHL and Washington National/DCA; that said, I don’t recall a lot of thru services touching both
One of your two guesses is correct, while the other one is incorrect.

The second correct airport isn't described as a hub on the Allegheny or USAir wiki pages (I'm not sure the hub concept was fully developed then), but it did have service to about 10 different cities timed with connections in mind.
PHL definitely functioned as a hub for AL/US on the basis of volume; given its latitude being close to that of PIT, and in keeping with the “sine curve” paradigm I’ll guess that Buffalo/BUF (as the largest of the three upstate New York airports approximately at the latitude of BOS with a substantial AL/US presence) was the other
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Old Mar 27, 2024, 10:36 pm
  #29114  
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11. Until I was around 12 (so the rough time frame is1975-87), my mom and I went from Boston to Pittsburgh almost every year. We flew BOS-PIT nonstop on 3 different airlines during that time frame, though 2 of them were effectively the same airline (i.e. just a rebrand or a perhaps a merger + rebranding) on 4 different a/c types. One of these airlines also operated flights between BOS and PIT that stopped in 2 different places (XXX and YYY), which were each close to great circle compliance, but if you tried to hit both on the same flight, youd be zigzagging. A fourth airline entered our orbit on the same route in the early 80s, but didnt offer through fares (e.g. BOS-ZZZ and ZZZ-PIT were sold separately, and my mom always paid in cash at the beginning of each segment, but there must have been other sales channels too). This airline was folded into airline #5, which did offer through fares, but everything else remained the same (i.e. airplanes and XXX) until the end of the decade. So, Im looking for 5 airlines, 4 a/c types (subtypes might have been applicable in 2 cases, but I dont know them), and XXX/YYY/ZZZ.
Originally Posted by jrl767
PHL definitely functioned as a hub for AL/US on the basis of volume; given its latitude being close to that of PIT, and in keeping with the sine curve paradigm Ill guess that Buffalo/BUF (as the largest of the three upstate New York airports approximately at the latitude of BOS with a substantial AL/US presence) was the other
BUF is correct, and that closes out the question (Airlines: TW, AL, US, PE, CO; Airplanes: 727-200, DC-39, 737 (almost all 200s, but maybe some 100s on occasion), BAC-111: Connecting airports: EWR for PE and CO, PHL and BUF for AL and US).

Incidentally, this 1975 AL route map suggests that ROC could have been a viable connecting point as well, but I know that none of the flights I was on passed through there. I also know that my mom would have preferred ROC to BUF, all other things being equal, because she had previously lived in Rochester for a few years and was familiar with the airport. So, I'm guessing that if BOS-ROC-PIT was offered, there might not have been any through flights and/or it was more expensive than the BUF routing. The reason we started doing those one-stop flights in the first place is because they were cheaper than nonstops (even back then).
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Old Mar 27, 2024, 11:03 pm
  #29115  
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Originally posted in #29096

1. Prior to the widespread adoption of radar systems, what were the primary navigational aids used by pilots for long-distance flights during the early 20th century?
ANSWERED (celestial navigation)

2. Prior to the introduction of the Boeing 747, what was the largest commercial airliner in terms of passenger capacity?
ANSWERED (DC8)


3. During World War II, this airline played a significant role in ferrying military aircraft and personnel. What was the name of the airline, and which routes did it operate during this period?

4. Which airline was the first to introduce in-flight entertainment systems on its aircraft, and what year did it occur?

5. The "Golden Age of Aviation" is often associated with a period between the two World Wars. Name two famous aircraft from this era and the airlines that operated them.

6. What was the significance of the 1930 Air Mail Act in the United States, and how did it impact the development of commercial aviation?

7. Which airline introduced the first-ever scheduled transatlantic jet service in 1958, and which aircraft did it utilize for this service?

8. In the 1980s, this airline made headlines by becoming the launch customer for a groundbreaking aircraft known for its advanced composite materials and efficient design. Name the airline and the aircraft.

9. Which airline was the launch customer for the Boeing 727, and what was the aircraft's maiden flight route?

10. What was the first commercial aircraft to be entirely computer-designed, and which airline was the launch customer for this aircraft?

The desired answer is not the 777 or the Mercure (Dassault). It was a few years behind the latter.


11. Until I was around 12 (so the rough time frame is1975-87), my mom and I went from Boston to Pittsburgh almost every year. We flew BOS-PIT nonstop on 3 different airlines during that time frame, though 2 of them were effectively the same airline (i.e. just a rebrand or a perhaps a merger + rebranding) on 4 different a/c types. One of these airlines also operated flights between BOS and PIT that stopped in 2 different places (XXX and YYY), which were each close to “great circle” compliance, but if you tried to hit both on the same flight, you’d be zigzagging. A fourth airline entered our orbit on the same route in the early 80s, but didn’t offer through fares (e.g. BOS-ZZZ and ZZZ-PIT were sold separately, and my mom always paid in cash at the beginning of each segment, but there must have been other sales channels too). This airline was folded into airline #5, which did offer through fares, but everything else remained the same (i.e. airplanes and XXX) until the end of the decade. So, I’m looking for 5 airlines, 4 a/c types (subtypes might have been applicable in 2 cases, but I don’t know them), and XXX/YYY/ZZZ.
ANSWERED (refer to posts 29111-14)

12. Also during the same period, I flew between HYA and BOS every other weekend until my parents deemed I was old enough to take the bus instead. These flights were on 2 different airlines onboard 7 different a/c types. Several of the a/c types were common between these airlines, but in the case of the HYA-BOS route at the time, we’re looking for a 2 + 5 split. Please identify the airlines and the airplanes.

Last edited by moondog; Mar 30, 2024 at 11:02 pm
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