Undocumented immigrant with a valid state ID
Jun 3, 2010 | 12:36 am
#31
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 11,664
Genuine Question. Why do US Immigration / Customs officers carry sidearms?
You are in a secure area of the airport, interacting with passengers who are arriving on international flights and have been screened for weapons before boarding.
I have traversed through Immigration and Customs in Australia, Singapore, Hong Kong, India and the United States, and the US has so far been the only country where I have been greeted by a Immigration officer carrying a sidearm.
Its fine and dandy to say one should not be physically threatened by a uniformed officer with a holstered sidearm, but people in most of the civilized world who don't see guns very often can and do get intimidated at the sight of a uniformed person bearing firearm. Surely the very first interaction that a foreigner has on US shores can be a little less intimidating.
You are in a secure area of the airport, interacting with passengers who are arriving on international flights and have been screened for weapons before boarding.
I have traversed through Immigration and Customs in Australia, Singapore, Hong Kong, India and the United States, and the US has so far been the only country where I have been greeted by a Immigration officer carrying a sidearm.
Its fine and dandy to say one should not be physically threatened by a uniformed officer with a holstered sidearm, but people in most of the civilized world who don't see guns very often can and do get intimidated at the sight of a uniformed person bearing firearm. Surely the very first interaction that a foreigner has on US shores can be a little less intimidating.
Jun 3, 2010 | 6:39 am
#32
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: MIA
Programs: PC Plat/Amb
Posts: 1,152
Genuine Question. Why do US Immigration / Customs officers carry sidearms?
You are in a secure area of the airport, interacting with passengers who are arriving on international flights and have been screened for weapons before boarding.
I have traversed through Immigration and Customs in Australia, Singapore, Hong Kong, India and the United States, and the US has so far been the only country where I have been greeted by a Immigration officer carrying a sidearm.
Its fine and dandy to say one should not be physically threatened by a uniformed officer with a holstered sidearm, but people in most of the civilized world who don't see guns very often can and do get intimidated at the sight of a uniformed person bearing firearm. Surely the very first interaction that a foreigner has on US shores can be a little less intimidating.
You are in a secure area of the airport, interacting with passengers who are arriving on international flights and have been screened for weapons before boarding.
I have traversed through Immigration and Customs in Australia, Singapore, Hong Kong, India and the United States, and the US has so far been the only country where I have been greeted by a Immigration officer carrying a sidearm.
Its fine and dandy to say one should not be physically threatened by a uniformed officer with a holstered sidearm, but people in most of the civilized world who don't see guns very often can and do get intimidated at the sight of a uniformed person bearing firearm. Surely the very first interaction that a foreigner has on US shores can be a little less intimidating.
Jun 3, 2010 | 9:38 am
#33
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 1,439
TSA's airline passenger identification policies (2010-02-16)
Best we can tell, he doesn't even need that. Think about it: Why should someone need to show his papers just to travel from one state to another within the United States? TSA seems to want to convince people doing so is a requirement when it's really optional.
Showing ID to TSA at an airport just gets you a less-thorough search and helps you avoid questioning. If you're in a hurry or trying to smuggle a weapon onto an airplane, then it's best to show ID. Since your friend will probably want to avoid scrutiny, it might be best for him to show ID even though he need not do so.
Following is what I've been able to find out about TSA's policies regarding airline passenger identification (last updated 2010-02-16):
What are the rules concerning airline passenger identification by TSA?
Although TSA refuses to publish all the rules they require passengers to follow at airport checkpoints, from what we can distill from TSA press releases, heavily-redacted information obtained via FOIA requests, TSA blog posts, and other information they publish on the Web, it's relatively clear that your boarding pass is all the documentation that's ever required for domestic flights. It seems that passengers are not required to present documentation of their identities to TSA staff, and that doing so is not a condition of crossing the TSA checkpoint.
TSA won't publish the rules we're supposed to follow. So what do we know about their I.D. policies?
According to a 2008 press release from TSA, TSA's airport passenger identification policy changed on June 21, 2008, but "showing I.D." was seemingly not required before and is seemingly not required now.
Prior to June 21, 2008
Before June 21, 2008, the situation seemed to be: In order to proceed to the "secure area" of an airport after being stopped at a TSA barricade, each passenger must submit to a pat-down and search for metallic objects using a hand-held metal detector, along with a hand-searching of any carry-on baggage, unless he presents documentation of his identity (i.e., unless he "shows I.D."), in which case he must submit only to a search for metallic objects on his person via walk-through metal detector and search of any carry-on baggage using an X-ray machine.
In other words: back then, showing I.D. simply got you a less-thorough search than you'd otherwise receive.
Now
Beginning June 21, 2008, the situation seems to be: Each passenger still has the option of showing I.D. and participating in the less-thorough searches (walk-through metal detector and X-raying of carry-ons), but the alternative now involves not only being thoroughly searched for dangerous items, but also identifying oneself verbally and participating in an interrogation intended to verify one's identity (via phone call from Homeland Security headquarters). Chillingly, it seems from the aforementioned TSA press release that this alternative also requires that someone be "cooperative with officers". What that cooperation entails is not defined.
Initial reports from TSA indicated that while people who claimed that their government-issued I.D. card was misplaced or stolen would be allowed to take the alternate route through the checkpoint (with the questioning), those who willfully refused to show their papers would be barred from proceeding. It's unclear whether or not this is still the case, or if it was ever the case, as TSA's initial press release seems, based on information received from TSA via Freedom of Information Act request, to have been inaccurate.
Summary of present situation and how to exploit it
In short, best we can tell, complying with TSA's "papers, please!" request is not necessary in order to fly domestically, it's simply a way to avoid the hassle of a thorough search for dangerous items, the hassle of providing convincing information in support of your claim to be who you say you are, and having to cooperate with TSA airport staff in any manner they see fit.
This is a great system for people who wish to do harm in airports or on airplanes, since getting a falsified identification document (i.e., a "fake I.D.") is relatively simple, and presentation of one almost guarantees that TSA staff will look at someone with less scrutiny, making it easier for him to take weapons, explosives, or incendiaries past the security checkpoint. Even if TSA could detect such fraud with perfect accuracy, using the Carnival Booth Algorithm, terrorists can probe an identity-based security system like TSA's by sending a number of people on harmless trips through the system, noting who is flagged for extra searches and who isn't. Then they can send those who aren't flagged -- people who almost certainly will get through security with a less-thorough search -- on terrorist missions.
Why does TSA want to identify us? What's wrong with them doing so?
This isn't about your safety. It's about control -- a few people's control over the rest of us.
The primary reason that TSA wants to know who you are is their desire to restrict people's movement based on Homeland Security blacklists. As did every government that has imposed totalitarian rules, TSA repeatedly tells us that their freedom-restricting policies are about safety, security, and rooting out subversives. Of course, this policy is really about extra-judicial punishment, allowing our executive branch of government to sidestep our judicial branch and punish someone for any reason or no reason at all. That's not the way things are supposed to work in the United States. It's ripe for abuse, and it's an infringement on our freedom.
For more on showing I.D. in the general sense, please see the Identity Project's "What's Wrong With Showing I.D.?" page.
Previous discussion on FlyerTalk
For more on TSA airport I.D. policies, see also the following FT threads (the fifth of which is what brought me to FlyerTalk for the first time; I'm the subject of that April 8, 2008, article on the front page of the Kansas City Star):
Showing ID to TSA at an airport just gets you a less-thorough search and helps you avoid questioning. If you're in a hurry or trying to smuggle a weapon onto an airplane, then it's best to show ID. Since your friend will probably want to avoid scrutiny, it might be best for him to show ID even though he need not do so.
Following is what I've been able to find out about TSA's policies regarding airline passenger identification (last updated 2010-02-16):
What are the rules concerning airline passenger identification by TSA?
Although TSA refuses to publish all the rules they require passengers to follow at airport checkpoints, from what we can distill from TSA press releases, heavily-redacted information obtained via FOIA requests, TSA blog posts, and other information they publish on the Web, it's relatively clear that your boarding pass is all the documentation that's ever required for domestic flights. It seems that passengers are not required to present documentation of their identities to TSA staff, and that doing so is not a condition of crossing the TSA checkpoint.
TSA won't publish the rules we're supposed to follow. So what do we know about their I.D. policies?
According to a 2008 press release from TSA, TSA's airport passenger identification policy changed on June 21, 2008, but "showing I.D." was seemingly not required before and is seemingly not required now.
Prior to June 21, 2008
Before June 21, 2008, the situation seemed to be: In order to proceed to the "secure area" of an airport after being stopped at a TSA barricade, each passenger must submit to a pat-down and search for metallic objects using a hand-held metal detector, along with a hand-searching of any carry-on baggage, unless he presents documentation of his identity (i.e., unless he "shows I.D."), in which case he must submit only to a search for metallic objects on his person via walk-through metal detector and search of any carry-on baggage using an X-ray machine.
In other words: back then, showing I.D. simply got you a less-thorough search than you'd otherwise receive.
Now
Beginning June 21, 2008, the situation seems to be: Each passenger still has the option of showing I.D. and participating in the less-thorough searches (walk-through metal detector and X-raying of carry-ons), but the alternative now involves not only being thoroughly searched for dangerous items, but also identifying oneself verbally and participating in an interrogation intended to verify one's identity (via phone call from Homeland Security headquarters). Chillingly, it seems from the aforementioned TSA press release that this alternative also requires that someone be "cooperative with officers". What that cooperation entails is not defined.
Initial reports from TSA indicated that while people who claimed that their government-issued I.D. card was misplaced or stolen would be allowed to take the alternate route through the checkpoint (with the questioning), those who willfully refused to show their papers would be barred from proceeding. It's unclear whether or not this is still the case, or if it was ever the case, as TSA's initial press release seems, based on information received from TSA via Freedom of Information Act request, to have been inaccurate.
Summary of present situation and how to exploit it
In short, best we can tell, complying with TSA's "papers, please!" request is not necessary in order to fly domestically, it's simply a way to avoid the hassle of a thorough search for dangerous items, the hassle of providing convincing information in support of your claim to be who you say you are, and having to cooperate with TSA airport staff in any manner they see fit.
This is a great system for people who wish to do harm in airports or on airplanes, since getting a falsified identification document (i.e., a "fake I.D.") is relatively simple, and presentation of one almost guarantees that TSA staff will look at someone with less scrutiny, making it easier for him to take weapons, explosives, or incendiaries past the security checkpoint. Even if TSA could detect such fraud with perfect accuracy, using the Carnival Booth Algorithm, terrorists can probe an identity-based security system like TSA's by sending a number of people on harmless trips through the system, noting who is flagged for extra searches and who isn't. Then they can send those who aren't flagged -- people who almost certainly will get through security with a less-thorough search -- on terrorist missions.
Why does TSA want to identify us? What's wrong with them doing so?
This isn't about your safety. It's about control -- a few people's control over the rest of us.
The primary reason that TSA wants to know who you are is their desire to restrict people's movement based on Homeland Security blacklists. As did every government that has imposed totalitarian rules, TSA repeatedly tells us that their freedom-restricting policies are about safety, security, and rooting out subversives. Of course, this policy is really about extra-judicial punishment, allowing our executive branch of government to sidestep our judicial branch and punish someone for any reason or no reason at all. That's not the way things are supposed to work in the United States. It's ripe for abuse, and it's an infringement on our freedom.
For more on showing I.D. in the general sense, please see the Identity Project's "What's Wrong With Showing I.D.?" page.
Previous discussion on FlyerTalk
For more on TSA airport I.D. policies, see also the following FT threads (the fifth of which is what brought me to FlyerTalk for the first time; I'm the subject of that April 8, 2008, article on the front page of the Kansas City Star):
- 2007-02-19: No ID Passenger threatened by police at DCA
- 2007-03-27: DCA Lawyer responds: You must show ID
- 2007-09-07: Legal Advice, forced to show ID (6 months ago)
- 2007-09-06: Your right to fly without ID (proof at last)
- 2008-04-08: Article:No ID needed to board plane
- 2008-05-01: new info from TSA re: airlines requesting ID
- 2008-05-01: does the law/courts say ID is not required to...
- 2008-06-06: Starting June 21: Refuse to Show ID, No Entry to Sterile Area
- 2008-06-09: Actually, it looks like you can still fly without ID
- 2008-06-11: TSA blog addresses the new airport ID rule
- 2008-06-20: TSA says new airport ID rule is not about control
- 2008-06-22: No ID - Reports from the Field
- 2008-06-23: Forget ID after 6/21: expect invasive ?s including political affiliation
- 2008-06-24: ACLU Blasts TSA's Political Party ID check questions
- 2008-11-19: Are you kidding me: No ID
- 2009-05-01: What is the ID Policy?
- 2009-05-27: TSA SOP re: airport ID requirements provided to IDP via FOIA request
- 2009-07-20: Flying with expired license
- 2009-07-28: Do kids with seats (age 2-10) need ID?
- 2009-08-04: Expired Drivers licence + Temporary One -Can I fly?
- 2009-08-10: Has anyone had a problem without photo ID at the gate of Jetblue at JFK and MCO?
- 2009-10-30: How many times do I show my BP and ID at the checkpoint?
- 2009-11-09: Can I travel with my expired drivers license as ID?
- 2009-11-16: Flyer Processed (Arrested?) in NM After Declining to Show ID
- 2009-11-21: What happens if an ID is lost?
- 2009-11-22: No longer using passport as ID for TSA - here's why
- 2009-11-28: Expired ID
- 2009-11-30: Damaged NY State License
- 2009-12-08: Flying with expired id or no id
- 2009-12-20: College ID or Expired License for Check-in ID
- 2010-01-29: Great Safety Screening at EWR!!!
- 2010-02-04: Passport card not accepted by TSA yesterday
- 2010-02-06: Getting selected anyway, should I refuse to show ID?
- 2010-02-15: Flying Without ID & TSA @ SFO
- 2010-02-18: TSA requires Passport on Intl Flights?
- 2010-03-29: Can I travel with my expired drivers license as ID?
- 2010-04-11: ID required for unaccompanied minor?
- 2010-04-12: Question about using a DL at a checkpoint
- 2010-04-12: Costco card as ID
- 2010-05-25: Temporary New York license question
Jun 3, 2010 | 10:39 am
#34
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 11,664
Jun 3, 2010 | 11:46 am
#35
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 1,439
I'm not trying to express my opinion (other than the general idea that TSA's ID policies are ridiculous), but to correct seemingly mistaken beliefs about TSA policies. I welcome any suggestions for more effective ways to do so. I wish other people would speak up when someone here says showing ID to TSA is required. Despite my efforts to counter misinformation, this comes up about once per month in this forum. Maybe the moderators would consider stickying an "Airline passengers are not required to show ID at TSA airport checkpoints" thread.
Jun 3, 2010 | 12:02 pm
#36
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 11,664
Jun 3, 2010 | 12:38 pm
#37
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,849
Genuine Question. Why do US Immigration / Customs officers carry sidearms?
You are in a secure area of the airport, interacting with passengers who are arriving on international flights and have been screened for weapons before boarding.
I have traversed through Immigration and Customs in Australia, Singapore, Hong Kong, India and the United States, and the US has so far been the only country where I have been greeted by a Immigration officer carrying a sidearm.
Its fine and dandy to say one should not be physically threatened by a uniformed officer with a holstered sidearm, but people in most of the civilized world who don't see guns very often can and do get intimidated at the sight of a uniformed person bearing firearm. Surely the very first interaction that a foreigner has on US shores can be a little less intimidating.
You are in a secure area of the airport, interacting with passengers who are arriving on international flights and have been screened for weapons before boarding.
I have traversed through Immigration and Customs in Australia, Singapore, Hong Kong, India and the United States, and the US has so far been the only country where I have been greeted by a Immigration officer carrying a sidearm.
Its fine and dandy to say one should not be physically threatened by a uniformed officer with a holstered sidearm, but people in most of the civilized world who don't see guns very often can and do get intimidated at the sight of a uniformed person bearing firearm. Surely the very first interaction that a foreigner has on US shores can be a little less intimidating.
1. Yes, everyone has been screened before getting on a commercial airliner en route to the USA. But what is the quality of that screening? Here is just one example of poor screening.
2. What about checked luggage?
I have no strong opinion on the issue, but I can certainly understand the argument in favour. Honestly, the extra weight on every officer's waist for the next 25 years is bound to do more collective damage than anyone at an airport with a gun ever will (I hope).
Good point!
Jun 3, 2010 | 4:00 pm
#38
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: cbr
Programs: QF WP (OWE) / LTG (LT OWS) | Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 4,971
Get it?
Jun 3, 2010 | 4:30 pm
#39
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 926
Yeah because even at Airports that have "State Police" with guns (and of the list I mentioned, only SIN comes to mind... can't remember if there were any security patrol's at HKG), there numbers are nowhere near the same as the number of CBP officers, and I am not required to interact with them.
Get it?
Get it?
Jun 3, 2010 | 4:32 pm
#40
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 315
Yeah because even at Airports that have "State Police" with guns (and of the list I mentioned, only SIN comes to mind... can't remember if there were any security patrol's at HKG), there numbers are nowhere near the same as the number of CBP officers, and I am not required to interact with them.
Get it?
Get it?
TB
Jun 3, 2010 | 4:41 pm
#41
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 315
TB
Nov 26, 2010 | 11:14 am
#42
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6
Unfortunately, your entire post is about someone who technically IS documented, meaning he has a valid document called a US driver's license. What would be more relevant to know is whether a person who has no valid federal or state-issued ID can still fly domestically within the US.
So, in essence, none of these statements are actually addressing the question.
Most people without legal papers drive or take the bus (even on long long trips) to get to their destination for fear of being deported on the spot at an airport. But does anyone reading this know of a situation where a person tried to take a flight without a) sharing their actual identity or b) being here legally? What actually DOES happen when an undocumented person tries flying domestically? I actually need to know...
So, in essence, none of these statements are actually addressing the question.
Most people without legal papers drive or take the bus (even on long long trips) to get to their destination for fear of being deported on the spot at an airport. But does anyone reading this know of a situation where a person tried to take a flight without a) sharing their actual identity or b) being here legally? What actually DOES happen when an undocumented person tries flying domestically? I actually need to know...
Nov 26, 2010 | 11:33 am
#43
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: NYS
Programs: Days of Our Lives, General Hospital
Posts: 1,543
Buffalo & Rochester
Nov 27, 2010 | 1:19 am
#45
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,051
might ask a uniformed person to tell me what they are intending to get, to see if they are willing to be open about it. If they get cagey, then I'd decline. Because they are hiding cards for some purpose, and that aint American in my book.