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Expired Drivers licence + Temporary One -Can I fly?

Expired Drivers licence + Temporary One -Can I fly?

Old Aug 4, 2009, 9:58 am
  #1  
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Expired Drivers licence + Temporary One -Can I fly?

I have a birthday coming up (August 9th)
I will be flying to San Diego the 12th from Houston.

by the 12th my license will be expired.
I do have the temporary (paper one though)

I also have my voters reg card, university id.
I can also get a hold of my Social Security card too if I need to.
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Old Aug 4, 2009, 10:03 am
  #2  
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You should be able to fly, but only after they make you suffer and argue with you a bit, telling you that they can't possibly let you fly. It's all a bluff. They feel they have to do that, so that they sound "serious."

Make sure you get to the airport early. They have procedures for this sort of thing.
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Old Aug 4, 2009, 10:22 am
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You will be fine. Just arrive a little early as suggested above in case you have some explaining to do to someone who is bored. Show them your old picture id and your temporary and you will be on your way. I traveled last week from SJC to RNO and back with an expired license and no temporary and had no problem. I had remembered to celebrate my birthday on July 18 but not to go to DMV. I told them the replacement is in the mail. My legal right to drive a car had expired but my identity had not. They carefully examined my expired license with their flashlight and sent me on my way.
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Old Aug 4, 2009, 10:34 am
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Don't even need the temporary ID. As far as TSA at the checkpoint is concerned, your DL can be expired for up to 12 months before we can no longer use it as a primary form of identification.
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Old Aug 4, 2009, 10:41 am
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Originally Posted by HSVTSO Dean
Don't even need the temporary ID. As far as TSA at the checkpoint is concerned, your DL can be expired for up to 12 months before we can no longer use it as a primary form of identification.
Cite?
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Old Aug 4, 2009, 11:10 am
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Originally Posted by whirledtraveler
Cite?
Screening Management SOP, in the section dealing with all things TDC :P

Granted, some IDs on the allowable list can not be expired. Airport-issued IDs, for example (SIDA, SAS, etc) are one of the types of IDs that cannot be expired.

A DL, however, can be expired - so long as it's no more than 12 months. Been that way for over a year now; not in the original TDC procedures (which didn't allow for any expired IDs at all) but within a month or two, back when TDC procedures changed by the day, they settled on the 12-month leeway period.

However, you might run into some trouble with the airline themselves, and their ID checks. They might have a unexpired-only requirement for their ID check.

If someone hands me their expired DL at TDC, and I see that it's not expired by 12 months or more, I don't say anything at all about it. They probably walk away thinking I'm some kind of slack-jawed yokel for "not noticing" that it was expired. :P

And, yes, I am aware that this document states that expired ID is not valid for the purposes of this check. Like I've said many times, though, that document is woefully out of date. Everything to do with the TDC screening process as outlined in that document is obsolete information.
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Old Aug 4, 2009, 11:53 am
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papers, please! (passengers still don't have to "show ID" to TSA)

No one is required to prove that he is licensed to drive, registered to vote, or a student at a university, or to present any documentation of his identity to TSA at airports. Although TSA keeps most of the rules it requires passengers to follow secret, the policy seems to be that if you willfully refuse to show your papers, you will be barred from flying, but if you claim that they were misplaced or stolen and and cooperate with an interrogation intended to determine your identity, you will likely be allowed to fly.

As of today, TSA's own Web site states:

Cooperative passengers without ID may be subjected to additional screening protocols, including enhanced physical screening, enhanced carry-on and/or checked baggage screening, interviews with behavior detection or law enforcement officers and other measures.
For more on this, see the following FT threads:
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Old Aug 4, 2009, 11:59 am
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Originally Posted by Phil
the policy seems to be that if you willfully refuse to show your papers, you will be barred from flying
To be specific, if you refuse to show your identification credentials but are willing to undergo the same rigmarole as if you had simply lost it, then the process is the same. The odds of that are astronomical, yeah, but that's the policy.

The only time you're "barred from flying" (though really it's more like being barred from entering into the checkpoint, which amounts to the same thing) is when you willfully refuse to show your identification credentials, AND are uncooperative with the identification verification process.

...For the Nth time.
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Old Aug 4, 2009, 1:04 pm
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TSA: please show us the rules; passenger identification does not improve safety

Originally Posted by HSVTSO Dean
The only time you're "barred from flying" (though really it's more like being barred from entering into the checkpoint, which amounts to the same thing) is when you willfully refuse to show your identification credentials, AND are uncooperative with the identification verification process.

...For the Nth time.
Thanks, Dean. If your associates would simply publish the rules you require us to follow so we can read them, there'd be no need for you to attempt to explain those rules through back-channel communication N times.

Also, I'm curious what "uncooperative with the identification verification process" means. Am I required to explain where my money came from, for instance? To provide personal details about my finances? To rub shoulders and shine shoes? To answer any personal questions about anything besides my name?

Dean has heard this a thousand times, but for anyone who's reading and new to all this, TSA's airport identification procedures serve exactly three purposes:
  1. airline revenue protection (I can't resell or gift a ticket I purchased, so the airline can sell my seat a second time)
  2. restriction of people's freedom of movement using government blacklists
  3. making misinformed people feel safer about air travel


For a great summary of why checking ID is not only ineffective, but dangerous to our freedom, please see The Identity Project's "What's wrong with showing ID?" page.
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Old Aug 4, 2009, 1:33 pm
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Originally Posted by homeofmew
I can also get a hold of my Social Security card too if I need to.
DO NOT travel with your Social Security card or use it for identification: your Social Security number is a fast lane for identity thieves.

As it has no picture, expiration date etc. it doesn't fulfill TSA's criteria anyway.

By law you are not required to disclose this number to any entity but the IRS and employers, etc. who disburse funds to IRS on your behalf (i.e. taxes withheld from your paycheck). Keep your card in a safe place; they are a real pain to replace these days. Replacement SS#s are rarely given even when ID theft is proven.
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Old Aug 4, 2009, 1:36 pm
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Originally Posted by pmocek
Also, I'm curious what "uncooperative with the identification verification process" means. Am I required to explain where my money came from, for instance? To provide personal details about my finances? To rub shoulders and shine shoes? To answer any personal questions about anything besides my name?
I think we've seen what the "identification verification process" means. TSA will take the basic identity information you give them, and then access various semi-public databases (like your credit report) in order to find pieces of information that you would know, but most likely no casual observer would know. Then they'll ask you questions about that information; if the answer you gives matches what they have, you "pass". (E.g. "what's the name of your mortgage company?" "when you lived in Jersey ten years ago, what was the name of the street you lived on?") While an imposter might be able to bluff past one question, if you put three or four of those together, the odds of an imposter getting them all right are significantly reduced.

Now, you're certainly free not to answer those questions. And, of course, you're free not to fly as well. While the issue of whether "identity matters" is debated widely here, the fact remains that TSA believes it matters. If it can't verify your identity the easy way, they'll do it the hard way.
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Old Aug 4, 2009, 1:57 pm
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Originally Posted by Phil
Also, I'm curious what "uncooperative with the identification verification process" means. Am I required to explain where my money came from, for instance? To provide personal details about my finances? To rub shoulders and shine shoes? To answer any personal questions about anything besides my name?
Originally Posted by Jim
I think we've seen what the "identification verification process" means. TSA will take the basic identity information you give them, and then access various semi-public databases (like your credit report) in order to find pieces of information that you would know, but most likely no casual observer would know. Then they'll ask you questions about that information; if the answer you gives matches what they have, you "pass". (E.g. "what's the name of your mortgage company?" "when you lived in Jersey ten years ago, what was the name of the street you lived on?") While an imposter might be able to bluff past one question, if you put three or four of those together, the odds of an imposter getting them all right are significantly reduced.

Now, you're certainly free not to answer those questions. And, of course, you're free not to fly as well. While the issue of whether "identity matters" is debated widely here, the fact remains that TSA believes it matters. If it can't verify your identity the easy way, they'll do it the hard way.
Right; exactly that. Or, as Phil usually prefers to call it:

Originally Posted by Phil
...an interrogation intended to determine your identity...
...Although!

Originally Posted by Phil
To rub shoulders and shine shoes?
That'd be awful nice of ya', kind sir.

Originally Posted by Phil
Thanks, Dean. If your associates would simply publish the rules you require us to follow so we can read them, there'd be no need for you to attempt to explain those rules through back-channel communication N times.
Yeah, I kind of wish TSA would update that information as well. The only thing the TSA Blog itself had about it was the absolute original requirements from June of 2008, which stated if you refused to show ID, you were refused screening. That changed within, like, only a few weeks... but they never put out updated information reflecting that change.

They even accordingly changed the flowchart. Something I had to get onto the Training Dude about since the copy of the SMSOP that we had available at the TDC podium had the most up-to-date version of the SOP itself in it, but the old flowchart.
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Old Aug 4, 2009, 2:40 pm
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Originally Posted by HSVTSO Dean
Originally Posted by pmocek
Thanks, Dean. If your associates would simply publish the rules you require us to follow so we can read them, there'd be no need for you to attempt to explain those rules through back-channel communication N times.
Yeah, I kind of wish TSA would update that information as well.
Update it? I don't believe TSA have ever published an authoritative source of the information.

Originally Posted by HSVTSO Dean
The only thing the TSA Blog itself had about it was the absolute original requirements from June of 2008, which stated if you refused to show ID, you were refused screening. That changed within, like, only a few weeks... but they never put out updated information reflecting that change.
Unless it changed within nine days, the information in the press release was false. As discussed in the FT thread, "TSA SOP re: airport ID requirements provided to IDP via FOIA request TSA SOP re: airport ID requirements provided to IDP via FOIA request", The Identity Project wrote:

In response to a request by the Identity Project under the Freedom of Information Act, the TSA has for the first time given us a (redacted) version of the section on Travel Document and ID Checks from the TSAs Screening Management SOP (Standard Operating Procedures) manual. Our request was made June 21, 2008, the day the TSA announced what they claimed were changes to ID requirements for air travelers. It took the TSA almost seven months to respond.

The version of the SOP manual which the TSA has now made public is dated June 30, 2008, so it ought to reflect the changes announced in the TSAs June 21, 2008 press release. But there is nothing at all in the sections of the manual the TSA has released about the new procedures and new ID verification form which the TSA had, in fact, started using. Rather than requiring people who dont have or dont choose to show government-issued ID credentials to execute affidavits stating who they are under penalty of perjury, the TSA procedures manual requires that such people be allowed to proceed through secondary screening as selectees, and specifically directs screeners and other TSA staff not to make any attempt to detain or delay them.
On June 15, 2009, I submitted a FOIA request for a copy of TSA procedures related to passenger identifation. Your FOIA office notified me of their intent to invoke the 10-day optional extension to the 20-day time period during which they are required to fulfill FOIA requests, but 50 days since filing my request, it has not been fulfilled.
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Old Aug 4, 2009, 3:45 pm
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Originally Posted by HSVTSO Dean
Don't even need the temporary ID. As far as TSA at the checkpoint is concerned, your DL can be expired for up to 12 months before we can no longer use it as a primary form of identification.
Is that true of passports too?
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Old Aug 4, 2009, 3:52 pm
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How about to check in? I totally forgot about this.
>.>
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