Justinus

It is a kind of weird that AY has not (re)started flights to Stuttgart. The German economy has been booming for years and Stuttgart is a major city from this point of view. In March SK will restart direct flights to Stuttgart...

At the airport there is a nice BA lounge available also for Schengen and domestic (AB) pax. ^

Jainzar

Roughly 200 km north is Frankfurt, 200km south is Zurich and 200km west is Munich. So Stuttgart is not out of reach with the current destinations and with the ICE from FRA it takes just over an hour to Stuttgart.

SK flies already now to STR from CPH. The new route is from ARN and a single flight on weekdays.

To fit into AY's schedule they need 2 daily flights to feed the LH flight. I don't know if there is enough demand even when flying E90 only if you want to earn money on that route.

Steve_Hun

I would actually argue with the use of word "nice" for that BA lounge. IIRC, that BA lounge is not actually operated by BA, only under the BA brand.

Re the HEL-STR-HEL route, it would suit me very well once a year, when heading down to the Cannstatter Volkfest (Stuttgart's version of the Oktoberfest) so that I could avoid using AB...

Justinus

I feel that the AY connection would be competitive for the Asian connections. Just like me, many Germans avoid FRA at all cost (though the terminal used by AY is a bit better than the hassle at the LH terminals).

Which again means that there seem to be increasing demand... After all, CPH and ARN do not have all the Asian connections that HEL has to offer.

florens

New charter flights to Murmansk:

http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/...route-20170220

mosburger

An old friend of mine used to be a regular, Stuttgart area based flyer on this route and later also worked briefly for AY Plus especially regarding the German market.

He blasted AY Germany sales managers as amateurs and was really surprised how they were able to run down the STR operations.

I'd just say it was AY incompetence regarding the German market and also a certain kind of corporate account focused arrogance (and misunderstanding of German Mittelstand company culture and importance thereof) that prevents them from being successful at certain regional airports there.

Justinus

I once happened to have a discussion with the AY people in Germany. I asked why AY is stuck always to the same airports and does not fly i.a. to Cologne-Bonn. This person answered that the airport is too close to DUS.

Yet Cologne-Bonn is a major business area with no direct connections to Asia. So AY expects those pax travel (often) more than a hour to DUS, take AY to HEL and connect to Asia, while they can more conveniently take LH to FRA and continue directly to Asia. The route via HEL would be much faster... How do you know that you will not be successful in a market, if you don't even try?

mosburger

There is some thought in this.

While some northern parts of Cologne and Leverkusen have rather good connections to DUS via ICE/IC/RB/RE/S trains or by car/taxi, eastern and southern areas are well populated and much easier to reach from CGN.

Also the whole Bonn area with numerous industrial companies in Bruehl, Wesseling etc. is already a considerable distance from DUS.

My idea would be to have one daily rotation HEL - CGN connecting from the "Asian Wave" and then an evening return CGN - HEL for the BKK, HKG and SIN red eyes.

Mainland Chinese, Japanese and Korean destinations are maybe better covered from DUS, IMHO.

With Rail & Fly tickets it would be possible to catch customers from as far as Euskirchen, Koblenz and/or Trier if there is a sales manager with real understanding of local companies, their culture and premium holiday travel & specialized travel agencies.

Turkish and the Gulf Airlines have shown how much potential there is in the German company & premium market, you just have to know and respect your customers and what they want.

intuition

Finnair usually wants to have at least 2 daily in the shorthaul traffic.

HEL-CGN would be around 2:20-2:40 flying time and to fit the waves the morning flight would leave HEL somewhere around 07.00-08-00 arriving CGN 09.00-10.00, allowing for the first return CGN-HEL to fly earliest at 9.30 but more likely waiting in the ground for a nice connection to the afternoon flights.

Schedule could be something like:
HEL-CGN 07:30-09.00
CGN-HEL 11.30-15.00

HEL-CGN 16.00-17.30
CGN-HEL 18.30-22.00


Even the embraers could do the rotation without refuelling, but if premium market is the target, current E90s are not the best choice.

Steve_Hun

Provided Finnair would actually be willing to sell a Rail & Fly ticket combo. Tried a few years back, as on DB's site they had Finnair listed as a partner, but regardless of whom I tried to talk to at AY, no one even heard of it, so they could not sell it to me...

Jainzar

Regarding Japanese it is no surprise since it is the Japanese center in Germany.

Well, why only add CGN and STR and not also DTM, FMO and HAJ. Actually SK gives up BRE so that should be maybe also on the list. Just from the size we can argue for any of these airports more or less the same way.TK is a special case given the millions of Turkish descent living in Germany. If only half that amount would be people of Finnish descent Germany might be AY's second core market.
I haven't checked all Gulf airlines but they also fly to pretty much the same destinations like AY themselves.

Courmisch

As intuition explained, that just wouldn't work. It would feed traffic from Asia except HKG and SIN, and then feed traffic to from HKG and SIN but not the rest of Asia... leaving nobody but the odd EU-HKG,China-EU openjaw traveller served.

Most regular/business destinations thus have two rotations per day. But at a minimum, Finnair can alternate morning and afternoon rotations based on day of week, though this obviously restricts the flexibility for long-haul customers.

That said, the CGN catchment area is not only close to DUS. It is conveniently reached by train from FRA. If only AY would actually sell DB transfers like LH does (AY is listed as DB partner, but nobody knows how to actually buy the transfer ticket).

Justinus

IMHO it is absurd to think that business people from the CGN area would be willing to take a train (and experience all the hassle it implies) to FRA or DUS just in order to experience the pleasure of flying AY. Instead they just fly to MUC and continue with LH.

Yes, I do believe that here would be a good market for AY, since flights to Asia are much shorter via HEL. Some 10 flights a week would do the trick.

mosburger

Yes, I have lived in the area for many years and was in Dusseldorf and Cologne last time a couple of days this January. NH aka All Nippon Airways even flies from DUS to NRT with their widebody staying on the tarmac for some five hours at the DUS end.

Stuttgart has the automotive suppliers that have major operations in Asia. These are some of the largest and most successful companies on an European scale, even if they are mainly considered Mittelstand in Germany.

Cologne catchment area features the "federal city" of Bonn with Deutsche Post, the UN city and other international organizations and a strong industrial manufacturing base plus the art & design and other international fairs.

HAJ and BRE might also be possible destinations if research, marketing and sales are done properly. If KLM can do it, why not Finnair?

I doubt many of the Turkish immigrants actually fly TK as there are numerous and cheaper charter and regular services available to Anatolia and other places of origin within Turkey.

TK would be more oriented towards the Turkish middle class and Turkey oriented businessmen in Germany while also selling a lot of connections to Africa, Asia and elsewhere.

The Gulf airlines are restricted in their amount of destinations in Germany and would actually like to fly to more cities.

mosburger

It's quite a distance to DUS from south of Cologne.

There are some small and even larger cities and stations east of Cologne on the HSR line to Frankfurt Airport that indeed are well served if one is prepared to pay the separate ICE ticket fee.

I just checked and the walk-in fee for, say, Siegburg(/Bonn) to Frankfurt Airport for today is 62 - 72 euro for one direction in 2nd class. So 124 - 144 euro for the train tickets alone on a return trip.

Rail & Fly might indeed attract more customers to FRA flights, but maybe more from the directions of Hannover, Wuerzburg, Darmstadt, Heidelberg etc.

As Justinus mentioned, a Cologne area businessman or holidaying couple can just as easily park their car at CGN and fly to Asia one stop via MUC.