Mar 17, 2020, 1:00 pm
Last edit by: oliver2002
Air France's rebooking policy: https://www.airfrance.nl/NL/en/common/page_flottante/hp/news-air-traffic-air-france.htm?_ga=2.60869669.82286185.1584471569-101309917.1487618201 KLM's rebooking policy: https://www.klm.com/travel/nl_nl/prepare_for_travel/up_to_date/flight_update/index.htm
Worksheet/flowchart for Travel Agents: http://image.email.bluebiz.info/lib/fe9013727c62017f75/m/4/575524f1-d29b-4548-b393-eb5ab0eee26b.pdf
European Commission EC261/2004 guidelines in context of COVD-19 dated 18 MAR 2020 US DoT Enforcement Notice regarding refunds dated 3 APR 2020.
Some additional information:
1) North American ticket holders can typically request chargebacks from their banks.
2) Furthermore, for flights that touch US soil, they may also file complains with the US DOT.
3) American Express in France and in the Netherlands reportedly refuse to open chargeback disputes for cardholders. Unclear whether other banks are following this policy.
4) At this stage, 14 EU member states out of 27 support amending EC261 regulation (which mandates airlines give the consumer the choice of a refund) for the duration of the crisis. Some of these member states have already suspended the enforcement of the regulation with respect to the obligation for a refund. Air France/KLM supports the proposed amendment.
Statement by 12 of these 14 EU member states: https://www.aviation24.be/miscellaneous/passenger-rights/coronavirus-twelve-eu-member-states-ask-commission-to-amend-regulation-ec-261-2004-to-allow-issuance-of-vouchers-in-lieu-of-refund/
Worksheet/flowchart for Travel Agents: http://image.email.bluebiz.info/lib/fe9013727c62017f75/m/4/575524f1-d29b-4548-b393-eb5ab0eee26b.pdf
European Commission EC261/2004 guidelines in context of COVD-19 dated 18 MAR 2020 US DoT Enforcement Notice regarding refunds dated 3 APR 2020.
Some additional information:
1) North American ticket holders can typically request chargebacks from their banks.
2) Furthermore, for flights that touch US soil, they may also file complains with the US DOT.
3) American Express in France and in the Netherlands reportedly refuse to open chargeback disputes for cardholders. Unclear whether other banks are following this policy.
4) At this stage, 14 EU member states out of 27 support amending EC261 regulation (which mandates airlines give the consumer the choice of a refund) for the duration of the crisis. Some of these member states have already suspended the enforcement of the regulation with respect to the obligation for a refund. Air France/KLM supports the proposed amendment.
Statement by 12 of these 14 EU member states: https://www.aviation24.be/miscellaneous/passenger-rights/coronavirus-twelve-eu-member-states-ask-commission-to-amend-regulation-ec-261-2004-to-allow-issuance-of-vouchers-in-lieu-of-refund/
COVID-19: AF/KL rebooking/refund policy
May 13, 2020, 11:58 am
#661
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: BOS
Posts: 15,027
You introduced the measure as if it was new, and in the context that "This will hurt KL big time"...which heavily implies that you didn't think or know that it would have hurt for the past 6 weeks, or without explaining why, only now, it was going to start hurting KLM.
Also, by far the biggest "hurt" to KLM is the fact that entry to non-EU/EEA nationals (without good reason) has been barred for the last 2 months, thereby reducing their long-haul traffic to returning residents and essential travellers only.
As such, neither that letter nor the measures contained therein (which, in NL, are not mandatory - as the letter you posted states, "The Dutch government urges that you take the following measures to prevent spreading coronavirus when you arrive home or reach your destination" - nor any new Spanish quarantine requirement (which looks to have legal force of law) can be viewed as a new threat to KLM. It's something KLM (and most other airlines!) have been living with for almost 2 months.
Also, by far the biggest "hurt" to KLM is the fact that entry to non-EU/EEA nationals (without good reason) has been barred for the last 2 months, thereby reducing their long-haul traffic to returning residents and essential travellers only.
As such, neither that letter nor the measures contained therein (which, in NL, are not mandatory - as the letter you posted states, "The Dutch government urges that you take the following measures to prevent spreading coronavirus when you arrive home or reach your destination" - nor any new Spanish quarantine requirement (which looks to have legal force of law) can be viewed as a new threat to KLM. It's something KLM (and most other airlines!) have been living with for almost 2 months.
If travel resumes one way or the other and the quarantine rule is still in place, then yes KL will be hurt (and so will many other airliners).
May 13, 2020, 12:04 pm
#662
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Netherlands
Programs: KL Platinum; A3 Gold
Posts: 28,733
The European Commission is currently urging the member states to coordinate on re-opening internal borders in as many as 3 stages, such that travel within Europe will begin to re-start.
For as long as the epidemic rages in certain parts of the world, you can definitely expect the requirement to self-isolate to remain in effect for arrivals from those areas into the Schengen states - though it will be interesting to see what steps the Schengen zone takes on the extension or amendment of the current entry ban. It's difficult to see, for example, a relaxation on entry for tourists from the United States for as long as the US maintains its entry ban on those arriving from the Schengen zone.
May 13, 2020, 12:08 pm
#663
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: BOS
Posts: 15,027
May 13, 2020, 1:29 pm
#665
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: mostly not far from AMS, otherwise NUE
Programs: FB Silver, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 2,381
Voor inkomende passagiers vanuit hoog-risicogebieden gelden de volgende maatregelen:
- Een verplichte gezondheidsverklaring (met ingang van 17 april 2020, 18:00 uur).
- Passagiers wordt dringend geadviseerd om 14 dagen in quarantaine te gaan.
- Een EU-inreisverbod voor alle niet-noodzakelijke reizen van personen vanuit derde landen naar Europa (alle EU-lidstaten, Schengenlanden en het VK) tot 15 mei 2020.
- Een verplichte gezondheidsverklaring (met ingang van 17 april 2020, 18:00 uur).
- Passagiers wordt dringend geadviseerd om 14 dagen in quarantaine te gaan.
- Een EU-inreisverbod voor alle niet-noodzakelijke reizen van personen vanuit derde landen naar Europa (alle EU-lidstaten, Schengenlanden en het VK) tot 15 mei 2020.
“Dringend geadviseerd” is not the same as mandatory.
May 13, 2020, 1:41 pm
#666
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Netherlands
Programs: KL Platinum; A3 Gold
Posts: 28,733
May 14, 2020, 7:05 am
#667
Moderator: Lufthansa Miles & More, India based airlines, India, External Miles & Points Resources
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: MUC
Programs: LH SEN
Posts: 48,182
May 14, 2020, 8:11 am
#668
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: In between BRU, AMS, DUS and LUX...
Programs: AF/KL Plat, BA Gold, A3 Gold, IHG Diamond, MR Gold, HH Diamond, ALL Platinum
Posts: 1,044
I love the little foot note which says "Note: Due to the exceptional circumstances linked to the Covid-19 situation, if refunds for non-refundable tickets with at least 1 flight cancelled are requested via BSPlink, the refund request will be processed, with a delay of 12 months from the date of application"
So it basically says : We will refund you of course, but it will take 12 months for us to process your refund :-O
So can they claim that they respect EU 261/2004 regulation with that ?
Last edited by palmanfr; May 14, 2020 at 8:22 am
May 14, 2020, 9:39 am
#670
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: GVA
Programs: A3 *G, LX *G, AF *S
Posts: 761
Thanks,
I love the little foot note which says "Note: Due to the exceptional circumstances linked to the Covid-19 situation, if refunds for non-refundable tickets with at least 1 flight cancelled are requested via BSPlink, the refund request will be processed, with a delay of 12 months from the date of application"
So it basically says : We will refund you of course, but it will take 12 months for us to process your refund :-O
I love the little foot note which says "Note: Due to the exceptional circumstances linked to the Covid-19 situation, if refunds for non-refundable tickets with at least 1 flight cancelled are requested via BSPlink, the refund request will be processed, with a delay of 12 months from the date of application"
So it basically says : We will refund you of course, but it will take 12 months for us to process your refund :-O
May 14, 2020, 10:01 am
#671
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Paris
Programs: AA LT Plat (4m+), AF Plat, A3 Gold, Hyatt Lifetime Globalist, Marriott Plat, IHG Plat/Ambassador
Posts: 2,648
May 15, 2020, 11:53 pm
#672
Join Date: Feb 2012
Programs: Flying Blue Platinum, Le ClubAccor Gold
Posts: 776
From the updated KLM website regarding cancellation policy:
If your flight was cancelled by the airline on or after 14 May 2020, you can opt to request a cash refund or a voucher. The value of the voucher will be somewhat higher than the cash refund. This increased value also applies if you’ve already received your voucher.
We’ll soon update our website with the revised policies, additional instructions on how to request a cash refund, and more details on the increased value of travel vouchers.
Flight cancelled by the airline on or after 14 May 2020
After careful consideration and in response to the the Dutch government’s reformed advice regarding the voucher policy offered by airlines, we are adjusting our refund policy for flights that are cancelled by the airline on or after 14 May 2020.If your flight was cancelled by the airline on or after 14 May 2020, you can opt to request a cash refund or a voucher. The value of the voucher will be somewhat higher than the cash refund. This increased value also applies if you’ve already received your voucher.
We’ll soon update our website with the revised policies, additional instructions on how to request a cash refund, and more details on the increased value of travel vouchers.
May 16, 2020, 12:20 am
#673
Moderator: Flying Blue (Air France & KLM), France and TravelBuzz!
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Paris, France, AF F+ Rouge pour toujours, Flying Blue whatever, LH FTL, HHonors Gold, formerly proud SCC Executive, now IC Ambassador, BA down to nobody, Grand Voyageur Le Club
Posts: 12,404
May 16, 2020, 5:53 am
#674
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Bristol
Programs: British Airways Executive Club
Posts: 117
UK resident here. Had my flights from Aberdeen to Lisbon cancelled twice now. 2nd time there were no rebooking options.
So apparently there was a change in the refund policy, for "cancellations taking place on 15th May and after. Concerned customers will be offered the choice of a voucher or a cash refund." Unfortunately my flight was cancelled the day before. Spoke to customer service on phone (took 30 mins!) and what'sapp. Not getting anywhere for cash refund.
Rang Amex, 10 mins on the phone, greeted by name. Dispute filed, chargeback sorted and account credited (KLM could provide Amex their version of events and reverse this of course).
For anyone else struggling with this, contact the airline in first instance (document conversations and save emails), and then get your credit card company to initiate the chargeback.
Make the (admittedly desperate somewhat) dishonest idiots pay!
So apparently there was a change in the refund policy, for "cancellations taking place on 15th May and after. Concerned customers will be offered the choice of a voucher or a cash refund." Unfortunately my flight was cancelled the day before. Spoke to customer service on phone (took 30 mins!) and what'sapp. Not getting anywhere for cash refund.
Rang Amex, 10 mins on the phone, greeted by name. Dispute filed, chargeback sorted and account credited (KLM could provide Amex their version of events and reverse this of course).
For anyone else struggling with this, contact the airline in first instance (document conversations and save emails), and then get your credit card company to initiate the chargeback.
Make the (admittedly desperate somewhat) dishonest idiots pay!
May 16, 2020, 7:33 am
#675
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: NYC
Programs: AA 2MM, Bonvoy LTT, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 14,638
Thanks,
I love the little foot note which says "Note: Due to the exceptional circumstances linked to the Covid-19 situation, if refunds for non-refundable tickets with at least 1 flight cancelled are requested via BSPlink, the refund request will be processed, with a delay of 12 months from the date of application"
So it basically says : We will refund you of course, but it will take 12 months for us to process your refund :-O
So can they claim that they respect EU 261/2004 regulation with that ?
I love the little foot note which says "Note: Due to the exceptional circumstances linked to the Covid-19 situation, if refunds for non-refundable tickets with at least 1 flight cancelled are requested via BSPlink, the refund request will be processed, with a delay of 12 months from the date of application"
So it basically says : We will refund you of course, but it will take 12 months for us to process your refund :-O
So can they claim that they respect EU 261/2004 regulation with that ?