Mar 17, 2020, 1:00 pm
Last edit by: oliver2002
Air France's rebooking policy: https://www.airfrance.nl/NL/en/common/page_flottante/hp/news-air-traffic-air-france.htm?_ga=2.60869669.82286185.1584471569-101309917.1487618201 KLM's rebooking policy: https://www.klm.com/travel/nl_nl/prepare_for_travel/up_to_date/flight_update/index.htm
Worksheet/flowchart for Travel Agents: http://image.email.bluebiz.info/lib/fe9013727c62017f75/m/4/575524f1-d29b-4548-b393-eb5ab0eee26b.pdf
European Commission EC261/2004 guidelines in context of COVD-19 dated 18 MAR 2020 US DoT Enforcement Notice regarding refunds dated 3 APR 2020.
Some additional information:
1) North American ticket holders can typically request chargebacks from their banks.
2) Furthermore, for flights that touch US soil, they may also file complains with the US DOT.
3) American Express in France and in the Netherlands reportedly refuse to open chargeback disputes for cardholders. Unclear whether other banks are following this policy.
4) At this stage, 14 EU member states out of 27 support amending EC261 regulation (which mandates airlines give the consumer the choice of a refund) for the duration of the crisis. Some of these member states have already suspended the enforcement of the regulation with respect to the obligation for a refund. Air France/KLM supports the proposed amendment.
Statement by 12 of these 14 EU member states: https://www.aviation24.be/miscellaneous/passenger-rights/coronavirus-twelve-eu-member-states-ask-commission-to-amend-regulation-ec-261-2004-to-allow-issuance-of-vouchers-in-lieu-of-refund/
Worksheet/flowchart for Travel Agents: http://image.email.bluebiz.info/lib/fe9013727c62017f75/m/4/575524f1-d29b-4548-b393-eb5ab0eee26b.pdf
European Commission EC261/2004 guidelines in context of COVD-19 dated 18 MAR 2020 US DoT Enforcement Notice regarding refunds dated 3 APR 2020.
Some additional information:
1) North American ticket holders can typically request chargebacks from their banks.
2) Furthermore, for flights that touch US soil, they may also file complains with the US DOT.
3) American Express in France and in the Netherlands reportedly refuse to open chargeback disputes for cardholders. Unclear whether other banks are following this policy.
4) At this stage, 14 EU member states out of 27 support amending EC261 regulation (which mandates airlines give the consumer the choice of a refund) for the duration of the crisis. Some of these member states have already suspended the enforcement of the regulation with respect to the obligation for a refund. Air France/KLM supports the proposed amendment.
Statement by 12 of these 14 EU member states: https://www.aviation24.be/miscellaneous/passenger-rights/coronavirus-twelve-eu-member-states-ask-commission-to-amend-regulation-ec-261-2004-to-allow-issuance-of-vouchers-in-lieu-of-refund/
COVID-19: AF/KL rebooking/refund policy
Apr 30, 2020, 1:36 pm
#571
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 17,455
Update on my circumstance:
TL;dr - I'm as happy as I can be, barring being able to travel.
AF cancelled the flight (SFO-(CDG)- LIS r/t) yesterday, contacted AMEX directly, and I received a call today from AMEX Platinum Travel offering full refund.
I have to say, I chose AF as my preferred TATL carrier for a number of reasons, but one of these, counter-intuitively, is because of the many times AF has had to deal with service disruptions and, at least ime, has been pretty damn good at it (having had more practice than most any other carrier).
I always use the Amex IAP because it saves me multiples of the cost of the Platinum card every year (obviously, not this year).
I'm very pleased with the performance of both my chosen travel partners.
YMMV, of course.
TL;dr - I'm as happy as I can be, barring being able to travel.
AF cancelled the flight (SFO-(CDG)- LIS r/t) yesterday, contacted AMEX directly, and I received a call today from AMEX Platinum Travel offering full refund.
I have to say, I chose AF as my preferred TATL carrier for a number of reasons, but one of these, counter-intuitively, is because of the many times AF has had to deal with service disruptions and, at least ime, has been pretty damn good at it (having had more practice than most any other carrier).
I always use the Amex IAP because it saves me multiples of the cost of the Platinum card every year (obviously, not this year).
I'm very pleased with the performance of both my chosen travel partners.
YMMV, of course.
Apr 30, 2020, 2:40 pm
#572
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Paris
Programs: AA LT Plat (4m+), AF Plat, A3 Gold, Hyatt Lifetime Globalist, Marriott Plat, IHG Plat/Ambassador
Posts: 2,648
May 1, 2020, 3:25 am
#573
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hong Kong, France
Programs: FB , BA Gold
Posts: 15,557
However, the EU has no specific enforcement capacity against a company that violates the regulation. It is left to countries to enforce EC261 as a national law. All the EU can do is publish some interpretation as they have already done a few weeks ago. For a ticket bought in France, it will be up to the French courts. NickB can correct me, but the situation with the US DOT rules. DOT can impose fines on airlines or even revoke their license to fly to US.
On a more optimistic note. I wonder what are the strings attached to the French Government aid. I assume that there are many government officials whose family had booked travel on AF during the summer. I assume that they are fighting to get their money back. It could be that when the cash materializes, AF would start issuing refunds. Just an uneducated guess.
May 1, 2020, 3:47 am
#574
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hong Kong, France
Programs: FB , BA Gold
Posts: 15,557
However, the EU has no specific enforcement capacity against a company that violates the regulation. It is left to countries to enforce EC261 as a national law. All the EU can do is publish some interpretation as they have already done a few weeks ago. For a ticket bought in France, it will be up to the French courts. NickB can correct me, but the situation with the US DOT rules is different. DOT can impose fines on airlines or even revoke their license to fly to US.
On a more optimistic note. I wonder what are the strings attached to the French Government aid. I assume that there are many government officials whose family had booked travel on AF during the summer. I assume that they are fighting to get their money back. It could be that when the cash materializes, AF would start issuing refunds. Just an uneducated guess.
May 1, 2020, 6:59 am
#575
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Paris
Programs: AA LT Plat (4m+), AF Plat, A3 Gold, Hyatt Lifetime Globalist, Marriott Plat, IHG Plat/Ambassador
Posts: 2,648
EC261/2004 is a EU "regulation". A "regulation" is a binding legislative act. It must be applied in its entirety across the EU.
However, the EU has no specific enforcement capacity against a company that violates the regulation. It is left to countries to enforce EC261 as a national law. All the EU can do is publish some interpretation as they have already done a few weeks ago. For a ticket bought in France, it will be up to the French courts. NickB can correct me, but the situation with the US DOT rules is different. DOT can impose fines on airlines or even revoke their license to fly to US.
On a more optimistic note. I wonder what are the strings attached to the French Government aid. I assume that there are many government officials whose family had booked travel on AF during the summer. I assume that they are fighting to get their money back. It could be that when the cash materializes, AF would start issuing refunds. Just an uneducated guess.
However, the EU has no specific enforcement capacity against a company that violates the regulation. It is left to countries to enforce EC261 as a national law. All the EU can do is publish some interpretation as they have already done a few weeks ago. For a ticket bought in France, it will be up to the French courts. NickB can correct me, but the situation with the US DOT rules is different. DOT can impose fines on airlines or even revoke their license to fly to US.
On a more optimistic note. I wonder what are the strings attached to the French Government aid. I assume that there are many government officials whose family had booked travel on AF during the summer. I assume that they are fighting to get their money back. It could be that when the cash materializes, AF would start issuing refunds. Just an uneducated guess.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world...liday-COVID-19
What they can do I don’t know. Do they have any ability to pressure local authorities?
May 1, 2020, 7:27 am
#576
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: UK
Posts: 433
Hi there, I had flights to Tokyo in June costing around £800. This was cancelled a few days ago and I decided to rebook for September, but now I don't know if I was stupid to rebook it...
My reasoning was:
- taking the voucher, I didn't want my money tied up with AF and as a student would rather not have £800 sat in AF's account when it could be in my own
- I thought using the voucher may not give great value for money if corona clears up but flight prices skyrocket, so keeping a booking to Japan made more sense than using a voucher which may only get me as far as Dubai
- I thought if it just gets cancelled again, then it could just be further postponed or they might have changed their policy and I could just get a cash refund by that point
I really can't afford to lose £800 and I would rather try as hard as possible to keep the trip happening (whenever it may be).
My reasoning was:
- taking the voucher, I didn't want my money tied up with AF and as a student would rather not have £800 sat in AF's account when it could be in my own
- I thought using the voucher may not give great value for money if corona clears up but flight prices skyrocket, so keeping a booking to Japan made more sense than using a voucher which may only get me as far as Dubai
- I thought if it just gets cancelled again, then it could just be further postponed or they might have changed their policy and I could just get a cash refund by that point
I really can't afford to lose £800 and I would rather try as hard as possible to keep the trip happening (whenever it may be).
May 1, 2020, 7:48 am
#577
Join Date: Jan 2006
Programs: BA KL
Posts: 86
If it helps anyone, KLM took around 14 days to process my voucher request. I received them last week.
Annoying, as I have 4 separate vouchers for me and my family (all booked under one PNR originally), but you can only use 2 vouchers in a single transaction on KLM's website. So I will have to call up to book. One hopes (expects!) KLM will not be charging the usual extra booking fees for telephone transactions in this situation.
(or that they remedy their booking engine so that it will accept more than 2 vouchers)
Annoying, as I have 4 separate vouchers for me and my family (all booked under one PNR originally), but you can only use 2 vouchers in a single transaction on KLM's website. So I will have to call up to book. One hopes (expects!) KLM will not be charging the usual extra booking fees for telephone transactions in this situation.
(or that they remedy their booking engine so that it will accept more than 2 vouchers)
May 1, 2020, 9:14 am
#578
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 4
I even had to register to share how much nonsense KLM has been throwing at me.
I booked my flights in February for beginning of April (Munich-Tokyo and back). Outbound flight got cancelled (inbound got too, but then they called off the cancellation (WHAT???) saying it has just been changed) I asked them for a refund and after getting couple of ridiculous responses from their Whatsapp support I filed a chargeback. After about 7-9 days I got my money back and was satisfied with the outcome.
Guess what? 3 weeks later (today, 28th April) I got charged again for the same amount by KLM, making my balance negative (debit card).
Has anyone faced the same outrage?
I booked my flights in February for beginning of April (Munich-Tokyo and back). Outbound flight got cancelled (inbound got too, but then they called off the cancellation (WHAT???) saying it has just been changed) I asked them for a refund and after getting couple of ridiculous responses from their Whatsapp support I filed a chargeback. After about 7-9 days I got my money back and was satisfied with the outcome.
Guess what? 3 weeks later (today, 28th April) I got charged again for the same amount by KLM, making my balance negative (debit card).
Has anyone faced the same outrage?
May 1, 2020, 10:03 am
#579
Join Date: Jan 2006
Programs: BA KL
Posts: 86
so my story continues... While my bank is (hopefully) taking care of the issue, today I received an EMD voucher from KLM, without ever asking for it. It doesn't explicitly say whether it is refundable or not, but its number starts with 074. Has anyone succeeded exchanging such voucher for cash? Should I even bother contacting them or better keep waiting for my bank to get back to me?
https://www.klm.com/travel/gb_en/pre...date/index.htm
May 1, 2020, 10:37 am
#580
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Paris
Programs: AA LT Plat (4m+), AF Plat, A3 Gold, Hyatt Lifetime Globalist, Marriott Plat, IHG Plat/Ambassador
Posts: 2,648
so my story continues... While my bank is (hopefully) taking care of the issue, today I received an EMD voucher from KLM, without ever asking for it. It doesn't explicitly say whether it is refundable or not, but its number starts with 074. Has anyone succeeded exchanging such voucher for cash? Should I even bother contacting them or better keep waiting for my bank to get back to me?
If you have a voucher you are stuck with a voucher. It will only convert to cash after one year.
First have them reinstate the reservation. It is unacceptable for them to have issued you a voucher without your expressly asking for one. They tried and tried to get me to believe that there was no way to do so and then after I insisted it magically was possible.
The Twitter team was useless (sometimes in the past they have been better but lately not so much)- you'll have to call.
Then you have two options.
The faster, if in your country you can initiate a chargeback, do that.
The slower option (which they may or may not honor) is if you send a formal complaint citing their obligations and saying you are copying the authorities listed above in the wiki. That might get them going.
They are trying every trick in the book to hold onto cash.
Good luck.
May 4, 2020, 2:25 am
#581
Join Date: Mar 2011
Programs: FB, Accor, Marriot
Posts: 426
If it helps anyone, KLM took around 14 days to process my voucher request. I received them last week.
Annoying, as I have 4 separate vouchers for me and my family (all booked under one PNR originally), but you can only use 2 vouchers in a single transaction on KLM's website. So I will have to call up to book. One hopes (expects!) KLM will not be charging the usual extra booking fees for telephone transactions in this situation.
(or that they remedy their booking engine so that it will accept more than 2 vouchers)
Annoying, as I have 4 separate vouchers for me and my family (all booked under one PNR originally), but you can only use 2 vouchers in a single transaction on KLM's website. So I will have to call up to book. One hopes (expects!) KLM will not be charging the usual extra booking fees for telephone transactions in this situation.
(or that they remedy their booking engine so that it will accept more than 2 vouchers)
May 4, 2020, 6:28 am
#582
Join Date: Apr 2005
Programs: AF/KL FB Plat ; A3 Gold ; HH Gold ; IHG Plat Amb
Posts: 2,378
On AF website, the limitation is 3 vouchers per transaction, but if the booking is for just one passenger, the limit might be 2 vouchers max, that's the theoretical limit I have been told by the platinum service line. In practice, I used 3 vouchers for 2 passengers last February on airfrance.fr and it worked perfecty. but I have not tried to use 3 vouchers for just one passenger.
May 4, 2020, 7:47 am
#583
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 293
On AF website, the limitation is 3 vouchers per transaction, but if the booking is for just one passenger, the limit might be 2 vouchers max, that's the theoretical limit I have been told by the platinum service line. In practice, I used 3 vouchers for 2 passengers last February on airfrance.fr and it worked perfecty. but I have not tried to use 3 vouchers for just one passenger.