Old Mar 17, 2020, 1:00 pm
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Last edit by: oliver2002
Air France's rebooking policy: https://www.airfrance.nl/NL/en/common/page_flottante/hp/news-air-traffic-air-france.htm?_ga=2.60869669.82286185.1584471569-101309917.1487618201 KLM's rebooking policy: https://www.klm.com/travel/nl_nl/prepare_for_travel/up_to_date/flight_update/index.htm

Worksheet/flowchart for Travel Agents: http://image.email.bluebiz.info/lib/fe9013727c62017f75/m/4/575524f1-d29b-4548-b393-eb5ab0eee26b.pdf

European Commission EC261/2004 guidelines in context of COVD-19 dated 18 MAR 2020 US DoT Enforcement Notice regarding refunds dated 3 APR 2020.

Some additional information:
1) North American ticket holders can typically request chargebacks from their banks.
2) Furthermore, for flights that touch US soil, they may also file complains with the US DOT.
3) American Express in France and in the Netherlands reportedly refuse to open chargeback disputes for cardholders. Unclear whether other banks are following this policy.
4) At this stage, 14 EU member states out of 27 support amending EC261 regulation (which mandates airlines give the consumer the choice of a refund) for the duration of the crisis. Some of these member states have already suspended the enforcement of the regulation with respect to the obligation for a refund. Air France/KLM supports the proposed amendment.

Statement by 12 of these 14 EU member states: https://www.aviation24.be/miscellaneous/passenger-rights/coronavirus-twelve-eu-member-states-ask-commission-to-amend-regulation-ec-261-2004-to-allow-issuance-of-vouchers-in-lieu-of-refund/


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COVID-19: AF/KL rebooking/refund policy

Old May 23, 2020, 12:06 pm
  #691  
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Originally Posted by San Gottardo
Some confusion here: AF has cancelled the return flight of a round-trip to Brazil. Rather than re-book it to a later date (not sure when I can go to Brazil again) I would like a refund for that cancelled flight. The ticket is in fully refundable booking classes (outbound was in P, return in J) - so how will they treat this? Like "normally", i.e. re-price this as a one way ticket and then refund the difference if there is any? Or take the part of the ticket that corresponds to the return flight and reimburse that, leaving the flown outbound part as if it had been part of a round-trip?

The former would clearly not be desirable. But something tells me that they're just pulling off exactly that on me. I had asked for a refund more than a week ago already, nothing happened, and now that I called again they said something which sounded more like the "reprice this as a one-way". But even after asking again they couldn't be clear.

Any experience with situations like this?

For the record, I'd even be happy with a voucher, it's the amount of the refund that worries me.
No personal experience, but I'm afraid they will consider the re-price as one-way. Did you check if there is another flight he next day which could save you from some headaches ? Did you call the Ulti line, as they are much more flexible in their policies for the Ulti pax ? Of you course, if you bought the ticket through a 3rd party, it may makes the things more complicated.
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Old May 24, 2020, 8:10 am
  #692  
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I am not sure I understand.
My guess is that this is a return ticket where you have not flown the outbound yet.
If so, AF should refund the whole ticket because they cancelled your return flight.

If you have already flown the outbound, you should insist that they reimburse according the original pricing of the two segments. EC261 article 8.1.a could help.But how did you get back from Brazil?
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Old May 24, 2020, 11:59 am
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Originally Posted by brunos
I am not sure I understand.
My guess is that this is a return ticket where you have not flown the outbound yet.
If so, AF should refund the whole ticket because they cancelled your return flight.

If you have already flown the outbound, you should insist that they reimburse according the original pricing of the two segments. EC261 article 8.1.a could help.But how did you get back from Brazil?
San Gottardo still wants to fly the outbound flight which is not cancelled.
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Old May 24, 2020, 1:34 pm
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Originally Posted by AirbusZAG
Does anyone know when the flights between CDG and destinations in Croatia will resume? any info maybe?
Not really relevant to this thread (you should have started a new topic) but that said...

Beginning 16 June Croatia airlines has one flight listed daily CDG-ZAG
Beginning 1 July AF also has one flight CDG-ZAG . That flight is also listed from 16 June but shows zero availability until 30 June (which means it's likely to be cancelled during that time)
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Old May 24, 2020, 4:11 pm
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Originally Posted by brunos
I am not sure I understand.
My guess is that this is a return ticket where you have not flown the outbound yet.
If so, AF should refund the whole ticket because they cancelled your return flight.

If you have already flown the outbound, you should insist that they reimburse according the original pricing of the two segments. EC261 article 8.1.a could help.But how did you get back from Brazil?
Originally Posted by Goldorak
San Gottardo still wants to fly the outbound flight which is not cancelled.
Sorry for the confusion.

This was a ticket GRU-CDG-ZRH in P, and return ZRH-CDG-GIG in J. I flew GRU-CDG-ZRH already a few months ago, and was going to go back ZRH-CDG-GIG beginning of April, which I then re-scheduled a few times. What happened now was (i) the uncertainty if I'd be going to Brazil at all in the next six months is big (ii) AF again cancelled the CDG-GIG. So I decided to get a refund. On a ticket that did cost approx. EUR 8100 return I now received a refund on my credit card of approx. EUR 3600 (after a week of silence from AF the mail arrived a few hours after this post). I didn't manage to check exactly - the AF tickets don't show the fare construct - but it feels about right.

To answer the question that may come now: how did you get *to* Brazil? With Lufthansa ;-) And I have an open Brazil-Europe ticket with them, which I'll also get refunded. But that was issued by our corporate travel agent, so I am somewhat disinvolved from that process, my office takes care of that.

And, Goldorak, yes, I contacted the ULTI line. Where a lady apologised and explained to me that currently there was no dedicated ULTI service (nor a dedicated Premiere team for that matter). Basically the ULTI team got merged into the Platinum team and that merged team would answer ULTI calls, so you could end up with a "normal" Plat agent or with someone who otherwise would be part of the ULTI team, just as a "normal" Plat could end up with either of these agents. I never quite understood how ULTI is supposed to work anyway: they say there is a "personal" TA - does that mean that it's always the same person one deals with? Or is it merely a dedicated team, where then any person in that team works ULTI calls and mails?

Thanks for all the hints.
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Old May 24, 2020, 8:48 pm
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Understood.
I know the felling as I usually have different outstanding return tickets bought in France which is cheaper origin than HKG origin (even if more expensive than many other Euorpean origins).

It seems that you got treated nicely by getting back immediately 3,600 for th J inbound, while the P outbound was priced at 4,500 (8,100-4,600). As expected, that segment pricing indicate that fares ex-GRU are lower than ex-ZRH.
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Old May 24, 2020, 11:43 pm
  #697  
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Originally Posted by San Gottardo
I never quite understood how ULTI is supposed to work anyway: they say there is a "personal" TA - does that mean that it's always the same person one deals with? Or is it merely a dedicated team, where then any person in that team works ULTI calls and mails?
It is the latter, and like you, I have always found a bit misleading the term of personal TA .
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Old May 24, 2020, 11:48 pm
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It triggered my curiosity. Actually BA sells F (I know, premium business is more correct) for 2500 EUR return for GRU ZRH (and other European destinations).
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Old May 25, 2020, 4:35 am
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Originally Posted by ranskis
It triggered my curiosity. Actually BA sells F (I know, premium business is more correct) for 2500 EUR return for GRU ZRH (and other European destinations).
Interesting. My ticket was way more expensive - but actually still not bad value - as I booked a few hours because Lufthansa had to cancel their flight, and the best way to get back from Brazil to ZRH with the scheduling constraints I had (AF leaves >1 hour later than LX and >4.5 hours later than BA) was to go through CDG. I didn't even spend time in Paris which is what I often do (it's one of my two bases), I just transferred. But the idea of the sub-par experience of BA and especially of LHR would not have endeared me to that option. On AF I had a 1H10 conection at CDG. They managed to get me to the lounge, give me 20 minutes for a shower in the P lounge and a grab-something-from-the-buffet-to-take-on-my-way, and still get me to my connecting flight without any rush. With BA I doubt whether a one-hour connection would even be possible, let alone have a comfort break between the two flights. And best part: I did the final hour of the flight and the landing in CDG in the cockpit of the AF 777 ;-)

Sorry for the off topic on disussing P fares and services from Brazil to Europe.
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Old May 25, 2020, 9:44 am
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Originally Posted by mfkne
After my successful chargeback via AMEX NL of a cancelled KL flight, I have been contacted by AMEX again, saying KLM had gotten back and they needed proof that I had tried to get my money back first. I have provided that now, but I cannot believe the balls KLM have to try to dispute a chargeback for publicly know violations of EU passenger rights.
Can you please share how you did a successful chargeback? I went to Amex NL's website, and for travel related chargebacks they send you to AXA Insurance. I just got off the phone with a lady who told me that because KLM is offering me a voucher their policy considers me to be fairly compensated so they refuse to even open a dispute/chargeback.
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Old May 25, 2020, 11:00 am
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Originally Posted by Tibszy
Can you please share how you did a successful chargeback? I went to Amex NL's website, and for travel related chargebacks they send you to AXA Insurance. I just got off the phone with a lady who told me that because KLM is offering me a voucher their policy considers me to be fairly compensated so they refuse to even open a dispute/chargeback.
Yep. Same thing in France.
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Old May 25, 2020, 11:38 am
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I just got off the phone with a lady who told me that because KLM is offering me a voucher their policy considers me to be fairly compensated so they refuse to even open a dispute/chargeback.
You need to apply for a chargeback in a written form.
On a phone line it is easy to fob off cardholders.
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Old May 25, 2020, 11:56 am
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Originally Posted by warakorn
You need to apply for a chargeback in a written form.
On a phone line it is easy to fob off cardholders.
Certified letter, return receipt requested.

In France, preferably with lots of stamps on it too :-)
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Old May 25, 2020, 12:14 pm
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I called them back on March 26th, spoke to a friendly gentleman who spoke Dutch with a Flemish accent and it all took less than 5 minutes. A few hours later I received an e-mail asking for the required documentation. I submitted that and 5 days later I got another e-mail confirming the chargeback had been accepted.
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Old May 26, 2020, 3:42 am
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How far in advance do AF make a call on their schedules; cancellations etc?

I'm booked on an AMS > GIG flight in October but considering the mess Brazil is in at the moment, it's the last place I want to visit.
KL705 (AMS>GIG) has continued to operate throughout March and April which I can only assume are continuing repatriation flights. My only hope is that the connecting flight from DUB>AMS is cancelled so I can at least get a voucher instead of full forfeiture.
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