Mar 17, 2020, 1:00 pm
Last edit by: oliver2002
Air France's rebooking policy: https://www.airfrance.nl/NL/en/common/page_flottante/hp/news-air-traffic-air-france.htm?_ga=2.60869669.82286185.1584471569-101309917.1487618201 KLM's rebooking policy: https://www.klm.com/travel/nl_nl/prepare_for_travel/up_to_date/flight_update/index.htm
Worksheet/flowchart for Travel Agents: http://image.email.bluebiz.info/lib/fe9013727c62017f75/m/4/575524f1-d29b-4548-b393-eb5ab0eee26b.pdf
European Commission EC261/2004 guidelines in context of COVD-19 dated 18 MAR 2020 US DoT Enforcement Notice regarding refunds dated 3 APR 2020.
Some additional information:
1) North American ticket holders can typically request chargebacks from their banks.
2) Furthermore, for flights that touch US soil, they may also file complains with the US DOT.
3) American Express in France and in the Netherlands reportedly refuse to open chargeback disputes for cardholders. Unclear whether other banks are following this policy.
4) At this stage, 14 EU member states out of 27 support amending EC261 regulation (which mandates airlines give the consumer the choice of a refund) for the duration of the crisis. Some of these member states have already suspended the enforcement of the regulation with respect to the obligation for a refund. Air France/KLM supports the proposed amendment.
Statement by 12 of these 14 EU member states: https://www.aviation24.be/miscellaneous/passenger-rights/coronavirus-twelve-eu-member-states-ask-commission-to-amend-regulation-ec-261-2004-to-allow-issuance-of-vouchers-in-lieu-of-refund/
Worksheet/flowchart for Travel Agents: http://image.email.bluebiz.info/lib/fe9013727c62017f75/m/4/575524f1-d29b-4548-b393-eb5ab0eee26b.pdf
European Commission EC261/2004 guidelines in context of COVD-19 dated 18 MAR 2020 US DoT Enforcement Notice regarding refunds dated 3 APR 2020.
Some additional information:
1) North American ticket holders can typically request chargebacks from their banks.
2) Furthermore, for flights that touch US soil, they may also file complains with the US DOT.
3) American Express in France and in the Netherlands reportedly refuse to open chargeback disputes for cardholders. Unclear whether other banks are following this policy.
4) At this stage, 14 EU member states out of 27 support amending EC261 regulation (which mandates airlines give the consumer the choice of a refund) for the duration of the crisis. Some of these member states have already suspended the enforcement of the regulation with respect to the obligation for a refund. Air France/KLM supports the proposed amendment.
Statement by 12 of these 14 EU member states: https://www.aviation24.be/miscellaneous/passenger-rights/coronavirus-twelve-eu-member-states-ask-commission-to-amend-regulation-ec-261-2004-to-allow-issuance-of-vouchers-in-lieu-of-refund/
COVID-19: AF/KL rebooking/refund policy
Jun 4, 2020, 11:07 am
#736
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: In between BRU, AMS, DUS and LUX...
Programs: AF/KL Plat, BA Gold, A3 Gold, IHG Diamond, MR Gold, HH Diamond, ALL Platinum
Posts: 1,044
it depends, I am still waiting for their twitter team to reply to the message sent 2 days ago almost.
However, if you have access to the platinum or Elite service line, the agents are professional and the waiting times very short. Had the experience again tonight.
On a side note, KLM's schedules have been adjusted today and yesterday for the July flights. and some oddities in the schedule are present. Traveller beware, look below at the example at the following flight shown on KLM.com minutes ago (I was checking for this flight as I was booked that day on the evening flight which got cancelled today). I thought that this flight would depart AMS at 11:45 as shown below...
But no, the agent indicated that there was only one flight that day operating with a departure at 10:05... With the same flight number ! Expert Flyer and my confirmation email confirms that flight KL1415, codeshared AF8319, departs at 10:05, which is quite a change for me.
So looks like they need to change the intern again...
However, if you have access to the platinum or Elite service line, the agents are professional and the waiting times very short. Had the experience again tonight.
On a side note, KLM's schedules have been adjusted today and yesterday for the July flights. and some oddities in the schedule are present. Traveller beware, look below at the example at the following flight shown on KLM.com minutes ago (I was checking for this flight as I was booked that day on the evening flight which got cancelled today). I thought that this flight would depart AMS at 11:45 as shown below...
But no, the agent indicated that there was only one flight that day operating with a departure at 10:05... With the same flight number ! Expert Flyer and my confirmation email confirms that flight KL1415, codeshared AF8319, departs at 10:05, which is quite a change for me.
So looks like they need to change the intern again...
Jun 4, 2020, 11:15 am
#737
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Paris
Programs: AA LT Plat (4m+), AF Plat, A3 Gold, Hyatt Lifetime Globalist, Marriott Plat, IHG Plat/Ambassador
Posts: 2,648
Wow! you are right-- they made some big changes today... a lot of CDG-AMS cancelled and/or zeroed out during that timeframe...
Jun 4, 2020, 1:17 pm
#738
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: In between BRU, AMS, DUS and LUX...
Programs: AF/KL Plat, BA Gold, A3 Gold, IHG Diamond, MR Gold, HH Diamond, ALL Platinum
Posts: 1,044
Yeah they adjusted the July 1st-15th schedules yesterday looks like and the rest of July today. KLM has always done this a couple weeks before AF during the entire crisis. I now expect AF to start chopping down the flights they operate massively in a couple weeks from now.
Jun 8, 2020, 3:23 am
#739
Moderator: Lufthansa Miles & More, India based airlines, India, External Miles & Points Resources
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: MUC
Programs: LH SEN
Posts: 48,182
Another update to the flowchart for travel agents:
http://image.email.bluebiz.info/lib/...5ab0eee26b.pdf
http://image.email.bluebiz.info/lib/...5ab0eee26b.pdf
Jun 8, 2020, 4:19 am
#741
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: mostly not far from AMS, otherwise NUE
Programs: FB Silver, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 2,381
Refund: The refund request will be processed, with a delay of 12 months from the date of application
Jun 8, 2020, 7:50 am
#742
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Paris
Programs: AA LT Plat (4m+), AF Plat, A3 Gold, Hyatt Lifetime Globalist, Marriott Plat, IHG Plat/Ambassador
Posts: 2,648
Jun 8, 2020, 8:14 am
#743
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 50
Amex Cancelled my chargeback
UK resident here. Had my flights from Aberdeen to Lisbon cancelled twice now. 2nd time there were no rebooking options.
So apparently there was a change in the refund policy, for "cancellations taking place on 15th May and after. Concerned customers will be offered the choice of a voucher or a cash refund." Unfortunately my flight was cancelled the day before. Spoke to customer service on phone (took 30 mins!) and what'sapp. Not getting anywhere for cash refund.
Rang Amex, 10 mins on the phone, greeted by name. Dispute filed, chargeback sorted and account credited (KLM could provide Amex their version of events and reverse this of course).
For anyone else struggling with this, contact the airline in first instance (document conversations and save emails), and then get your credit card company to initiate the chargeback.
Make the (admittedly desperate somewhat) dishonest idiots pay!
So apparently there was a change in the refund policy, for "cancellations taking place on 15th May and after. Concerned customers will be offered the choice of a voucher or a cash refund." Unfortunately my flight was cancelled the day before. Spoke to customer service on phone (took 30 mins!) and what'sapp. Not getting anywhere for cash refund.
Rang Amex, 10 mins on the phone, greeted by name. Dispute filed, chargeback sorted and account credited (KLM could provide Amex their version of events and reverse this of course).
For anyone else struggling with this, contact the airline in first instance (document conversations and save emails), and then get your credit card company to initiate the chargeback.
Make the (admittedly desperate somewhat) dishonest idiots pay!
I did the same thing as you - Back in March I got AMEX to do a charge back. Today I find they've reversed that chargeback. I called them up and they started citing 'force majure' clauses in KLM's terms and conditions as 'evidence' and went on about how 'amex are impartial in this dispute' or some other nonsense. They then refused to take it any further. I've asked that it be escalated.
Sadly what I do will all depend on how easy the next steps are. I'm fairly certain I'll be stonewalled at every step, with it being my word against theirs. And In the end I'll have to accept a voucher, wait 12 months and then finally get my refund of £1800. It's criminal really that a firm can choose to keep your money.
I run a small business - I'd love to be able to say to all my clients - i'm going to keep the money you've given me so far, but due to covid difficulties I'm not going to be providing any services, I also know you won't need any services, but regardless of that here's a voucher that's valid for 12 months, in the meantime I'll sit on your cash.
Last edited by Marbles; Jun 8, 2020 at 12:10 pm Reason: Edit title
Jun 9, 2020, 4:14 am
#744
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: In between BRU, AMS, DUS and LUX...
Programs: AF/KL Plat, BA Gold, A3 Gold, IHG Diamond, MR Gold, HH Diamond, ALL Platinum
Posts: 1,044
I did the same thing as you - Back in March I got AMEX to do a charge back. Today I find they've reversed that chargeback. I called them up and they started citing 'force majure' clauses in KLM's terms and conditions as 'evidence' and went on about how 'amex are impartial in this dispute' or some other nonsense. They then refused to take it any further. I've asked that it be escalated.
Sadly what I do will all depend on how easy the next steps are. I'm fairly certain I'll be stonewalled at every step, with it being my word against theirs. And In the end I'll have to accept a voucher, wait 12 months and then finally get my refund of £1800. It's criminal really that a firm can choose to keep your money.
I run a small business - I'd love to be able to say to all my clients - i'm going to keep the money you've given me so far, but due to covid difficulties I'm not going to be providing any services, I also know you won't need any services, but regardless of that here's a voucher that's valid for 12 months, in the meantime I'll sit on your cash.
Sadly what I do will all depend on how easy the next steps are. I'm fairly certain I'll be stonewalled at every step, with it being my word against theirs. And In the end I'll have to accept a voucher, wait 12 months and then finally get my refund of £1800. It's criminal really that a firm can choose to keep your money.
I run a small business - I'd love to be able to say to all my clients - i'm going to keep the money you've given me so far, but due to covid difficulties I'm not going to be providing any services, I also know you won't need any services, but regardless of that here's a voucher that's valid for 12 months, in the meantime I'll sit on your cash.
Jun 9, 2020, 8:06 am
#745
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 49
Here's another data point for refunds: KLM cancelled my flight (AMS-CDG) on March 25, over the next several days I asked for a refund (via both Twitter and WhatsApp I believe), they offered a voucher, I insisted on a refund "per EC regulation 261/2004", I gave up thinking I'd gotten nowhere, on April 8 I received an email (Subject: KLM refund request: ID ___) saying the request was received, on June 8 I received another email saying the request was processed, and today I received the refund to my credit card minus the "booking fee" and "payment surcharge".
Jun 9, 2020, 8:11 am
#746
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Paris
Programs: AA LT Plat (4m+), AF Plat, A3 Gold, Hyatt Lifetime Globalist, Marriott Plat, IHG Plat/Ambassador
Posts: 2,648
Here's another data point for refunds: KLM cancelled my flight (AMS-CDG) on March 25, over the next several days I asked for a refund (via both Twitter and WhatsApp I believe), they offered a voucher, I insisted on a refund "per EC regulation 261/2004", I gave up thinking I'd gotten nowhere, on April 8 I received an email (Subject: KLM refund request: ID ___) saying the request was received, on June 8 I received another email saying the request was processed, and today I received the refund to my credit card minus the "booking fee" and "payment surcharge".
Jun 9, 2020, 8:44 am
#747
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: In between BRU, AMS, DUS and LUX...
Programs: AF/KL Plat, BA Gold, A3 Gold, IHG Diamond, MR Gold, HH Diamond, ALL Platinum
Posts: 1,044
Here's another data point for refunds: KLM cancelled my flight (AMS-CDG) on March 25, over the next several days I asked for a refund (via both Twitter and WhatsApp I believe), they offered a voucher, I insisted on a refund "per EC regulation 261/2004", I gave up thinking I'd gotten nowhere, on April 8 I received an email (Subject: KLM refund request: ID ___) saying the request was received, on June 8 I received another email saying the request was processed, and today I received the refund to my credit card minus the "booking fee" and "payment surcharge".
Jun 9, 2020, 8:53 am
#748
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: In between BRU, AMS, DUS and LUX...
Programs: AF/KL Plat, BA Gold, A3 Gold, IHG Diamond, MR Gold, HH Diamond, ALL Platinum
Posts: 1,044
After arguing on messenger about the 15% inexistent voucher bonus (I had to pay some extra 11 Euros for a booking for my gf using a voucher she received following a cancellation - not much money but I won't be giving any extra cent to those liars), here below is the answer KLM provided this afternoon. So any booking made before June 16th will in theory not get the bonus, and indeed like the flow chart suggests any booking for a cheaper or equal price than the original voucher will no give any bonus. Does anybody has a screenshot of the voucher conditions related to the bonus which were published between May 15th until June 3rd ?Dear xxx, we regret our policy may have caused some confusion. In one of the previous message we informed: 'The incentive is applicable if the new ticket(s) are booked and issued between June 16th, 2020 until October 31st, 2020 for flights departing until June 15th, 2021.' and also take notice of below information:
- A voucher is valid for a future flight booking and the incentive will be capped to 15%, depending on the price of the new ticket and actual dates of booking and flight.
- If you transfer your ticket voucher into a new ticket with more value will receive an added value from Air France and KLM up to 15% of the voucher amount.
- If you book a ticket, which price is lower than the voucher value, you will not receive the incentive. In that case, of course, the residual value will remain available in voucher form still refundable within 12 months if not used.
These are reasons why the incentive is currently not fully used in combination with the voucher that you have provided.
We kindly ask you to try and book the other trips after the 16th of June in combination with the EMD's provided. If you then have questions about the incentive in relation to the flights that you or the passenger involved is using, then please get back to us and update us also on below details per booking so we can have a look:
- SURNAME / NAME (as in passport) per passenger, plus gender:
- date of birth (dd/mm/yyyy):
- nationality:
- email address
- phone number:
- Flying Blue number (if applicable):
- travel date:
- travel route:
- flight preference (morning, afternoon, evening)
- Business or Economy class:
- Light, Standard or Flex fare? Read more via: https://klmf.ly/2H89SFA
- special requests (seats, meals):
- EMD number:
Once we receive these details, we will then create a temporary booking and inform you accordingly.
Thanks in advance for your patience and understanding.
- A voucher is valid for a future flight booking and the incentive will be capped to 15%, depending on the price of the new ticket and actual dates of booking and flight.
- If you transfer your ticket voucher into a new ticket with more value will receive an added value from Air France and KLM up to 15% of the voucher amount.
- If you book a ticket, which price is lower than the voucher value, you will not receive the incentive. In that case, of course, the residual value will remain available in voucher form still refundable within 12 months if not used.
These are reasons why the incentive is currently not fully used in combination with the voucher that you have provided.
We kindly ask you to try and book the other trips after the 16th of June in combination with the EMD's provided. If you then have questions about the incentive in relation to the flights that you or the passenger involved is using, then please get back to us and update us also on below details per booking so we can have a look:
- SURNAME / NAME (as in passport) per passenger, plus gender:
- date of birth (dd/mm/yyyy):
- nationality:
- email address
- phone number:
- Flying Blue number (if applicable):
- travel date:
- travel route:
- flight preference (morning, afternoon, evening)
- Business or Economy class:
- Light, Standard or Flex fare? Read more via: https://klmf.ly/2H89SFA
- special requests (seats, meals):
- EMD number:
Once we receive these details, we will then create a temporary booking and inform you accordingly.
Thanks in advance for your patience and understanding.
Jun 9, 2020, 9:37 pm
#749
Join Date: Apr 2017
Programs: Flying Blue Silver
Posts: 123
Originally Posted by AF/KLM
Dear customer,
Our sales and service center is currently experiencing an unexpected amount of calls and emails due to exceptional circumstances (COVID-19 Coronavirus).
Waiting times may be longer than usual.
We apologize for the inconvenience.
With kind regards,
Air France KLM
Our sales and service center is currently experiencing an unexpected amount of calls and emails due to exceptional circumstances (COVID-19 Coronavirus).
Waiting times may be longer than usual.
We apologize for the inconvenience.
With kind regards,
Air France KLM