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-   -   KVS Availability Tool (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/travel-tools/1592702-kvs-availability-tool.html)

paulwuk Feb 13, 2015 8:56 am


Originally Posted by uk1 (Post 24337072)
Hi,

When I can see redemption availability for BA flights on BA com, this doesn't seem to show up on the mobile companion site under the appropriate booking codes ie Z, U, P or X. Am I missing something?

Thanks.

I believe KVS finds BA availability by running a "hidden browser" that visits ba.com and does a large number of searches. In the industry this is called "Scraping". This is the reason KVS is a computer program - it runs code on your machine that talks to ba.com (and other airline sites, travel agents, etc). But you surely know all this as a KVS user.

The BA.com terms of service
http://www.britishairways.com/en-gb/...rms-conditions

states

use ‘screen scraping’, any automated algorithm, device, method, system, software or manual process to access, use, search, copy, monitor or extract Material (in whole or in part) from or through using this website unless We have given Our express written agreement
Now it's entirely possible that BA have given KVS their express written agreement, however as you are the person running it that doesn't help you. As such, running KVS and doing a search for BA appears to be in contravention of their terms of service.

Sadly BA.com do not advertise their revenue codes (Z, U, P, X) via the standard method (GDS) that they use for F,A,J,C,D,R,I,W,E,T,Y,B,H and the lower classes. They did for a while, about 14 months ago, and availability came up on legitimate tools like flightstats or expertflyer -- tools that pay for the data and access it legally. I made great use of this to bump my SEA CW return to a SEA F return using expertflyer's email notification service.

The fact the the KVS mobility companion appears to only offer access to data that can be legitimately bought on the open market, and doesn't instead run the code the KVS tool runs, implies to me that the person running the servers is actually concerned about the legality of the scraping tool, so he doesn't use it in a situation where he can be more easily traced.

If you are in a library soon, you may want to see if you can find Decoding Air Travel: A Guide to Saving on Airfare and Flying in Luxury - By Nicholas Kralev, who metnions KVSTool and Victor (aka KVSTool), and the fact that airline officials have complained about it.

KVSTool claims to be a browser, however it masquerades as internet explorer, rather than have it's own "Signature", that legitimate webbrowsers have.

The last time a guy <deleted by moderator> tried to sell me something seemingly useful down the pub, for a "donation", I said no, I wasn't worries it was broken in it's fall off the back of the lorry, or that the police might get me for handling stolen goods, it's the morality of such a thing that turns me off.

KVS Feb 13, 2015 10:57 am


Originally Posted by Placebogirl (Post 24343569)
Again, thanks for your fast response--trying to use SQ KFF, and having no luck at all :S. For reference, the flight I am investigating is SQ237 on 30 March, which is showing CS


Originally Posted by nux (Post 24343586)
There is saver level award availability on SQ237 on 30/Mar. You can verify this yourself using the SQ website.

Indeed, there is definitely I (CS) Class Availability on that flight, which can be confirmed via SQ.com:

http://i.snag.gy/1C7c9.jpg


Originally Posted by Placebogirl (Post 24343569)
but both SQ and a travel agent have told me no I class on that flight--shame really, I was hoping for that upgrade :).

Travel Agents cannot see I Class Availability.
You may wish to contact SQ directly to find-out the actual reason why your Upgrade is not going through ...

lewinr Feb 13, 2015 12:04 pm


Originally Posted by paulwuk (Post 24344889)
I believe KVS finds BA availability by running a "hidden browser" that visits ba.com and does a large number of searches. In the industry this is called "Scraping". This is the reason KVS is a computer program - it runs code on your machine that talks to ba.com (and other airline sites, travel agents, etc). But you surely know all this as a KVS user.

If KVS did a large number of automated searches and saved that data, I would agree with you in calling it a scraper. But it doesn't. I use KVS for only one search at a time, similar to my activity when I use Internet Explorer to view the website. KVS simply presents the data to me differently than IE.


Originally Posted by paulwuk (Post 24344889)
The BA.com terms of service
http://www.britishairways.com/en-gb/...rms-conditions state


use ‘screen scraping’, any automated algorithm, device, method, system, software or manual process to access, use, search, copy, monitor or extract Material (in whole or in part) from or through using this website unless We have given Our express written agreement
Now it's entirely possible that BA have given KVS their express written agreement, however as you are the person running it that doesn't help you. As such, running KVS and doing a search for BA appears to be in contravention of their terms of service.

Incredibly, the terms of service require the user to have BA's express written agreement to access their website using any browser.


In particular, You agree that, You must not use... any... software... to access... Material (in whole or in part) from or through this website unless We have given our express written agreement
There is nothing in the ... that changes the meaning of this extract.

I don't see anything here that prevents me from accessing their website with KVS any more than accessing it with IE. (In fact both violate their ToS.)


Originally Posted by paulwuk (Post 24344889)
KVSTool claims to be a browser, however it masquerades as internet explorer, rather than have it's own "Signature", that legitimate webbrowsers have.

Yes, KVS behaves badly here by not identifying itself as the user-agent. It breaks convention. But that does not make it illegitimate or illegal, it just makes it badly behaved.

vbroucek Feb 15, 2015 2:49 am


Originally Posted by paulwuk (Post 24344889)
...
This is the reason KVS is a computer program - it runs code on your machine that talks to ba.com (and other airline sites, travel agents, etc). But you surely know all this as a KVS user.
...

You should search a definitions of "computer program"... KVS Availability Tool is a computer program, Internet Explorer is a computer program, Firefox is a computer program. Basically everything on your computer is a computer program since it runs code on your machine as you say...


Originally Posted by lewinr (Post 24346127)
If KVS did a large number of automated searches and saved that data, I would agree with you in calling it a scraper. But it doesn't. I use KVS for only one search at a time, similar to my activity when I use Internet Explorer to view the website. KVS simply presents the data to me differently than IE.

That's where you are wrong. In many cases, KVS queries either various sources or one source repeatedly before presenting aggregated results. I can prove that KVS indeed stores data in volatile memory before presenting them...


Originally Posted by lewinr (Post 24346127)
Yes, KVS behaves badly here by not identifying itself as the user-agent. It breaks convention. But that does not make it illegitimate or illegal, it just makes it badly behaved.

To be fair to KVS, KVS is not the only culprit here. You should do more reading before saying "It breaks convention"... AFAIK, "user-agent" does not say "who I am" but is says to whom I am compatible with... So for example, Opera uses "Mozilla/5.0"...

I have done more reading recently and interestingly, I found that in my own country (Australia), the Spam Act 2003 makes harvesting of e-mail addresses from websites illegal... I know, it is different from what KVS does, but I am going to do more reading about tis...

AndySAV Feb 16, 2015 4:34 am

Can we please stop clogging this thread with posts about the legality of this tool, it's been going on for months and it's BORING. If you don't want to use the tool because you feel you are committing a crime, fine, that is your choice. You have the Wiki post on this thread so be happy with that and lets leave this thread for KVS tool support.

ONTRandy Feb 16, 2015 6:22 am


Originally Posted by vbroucek (Post 24353852)
That's where you are wrong. In many cases, KVS queries either various sources or one source repeatedly before presenting aggregated results. I can prove that KVS indeed stores data in volatile memory before presenting them...

Which is exactly what the sources of that data are trying to prevent by establishing TOSes that prohibit this. This is a civil issue, not a criminal one.

IMH Feb 16, 2015 6:39 am


Originally Posted by AndySAV (Post 24359179)
leave this thread for KVS tool support.

It's not a KVS owned thread for "support". It's a FlyerTalk thread. @:-)

TWA884 Feb 16, 2015 6:50 am

Moderator's note:
I've made it quite clear what are proper subjects for discussion in this thread.

The legality and legitimacy of the methods and sources used by KVS to obtain the data are fair subjects for discussion.

There is no requirement that participants in this forum be users or subscribers of the KVS Availability Tool.

This is not a private forum run by KVS for their subscribers.

If you find the discussion boring, skip those messages.

Future posts of this nature will be summarily deleted. Repeat offenders will be suspended.

BostonFlyer1624 Feb 20, 2015 2:21 pm

Does KVS work to pull CX award availability using AA miles? I know it stopped working many months ago

wheresmybagba Feb 20, 2015 2:39 pm


Originally Posted by BostonFlyer1624 (Post 24386815)
Does KVS work to pull CX award availability using AA miles? I know it stopped working many months ago

What stopped working?

KVS shows CX award availability via any of the 4 OneWorld methods available. Whether or not AA will confirm what any of them show is another matter.

JIMCHI Feb 20, 2015 9:05 pm


Originally Posted by BostonFlyer1624 (Post 24386815)
Does KVS work to pull CX award availability using AA miles? I know it stopped working many months ago

The JL-OneWorld method appears to be the most reliable with showing CX award seats available to AA customers. It one of just many great features that KVS offers.

KVS Feb 21, 2015 12:18 pm


Originally Posted by BostonFlyer1624 (Post 24386815)
Does KVS work to pull CX award availability using AA miles?


Originally Posted by wheresmybagba (Post 24386896)
KVS shows CX award availability via any of the 4 OneWorld methods available.

That is correct.


Originally Posted by JIMCHI (Post 24388445)
The JL-OneWorld method appears to be the most reliable with showing CX award seats available to AA customers.

Indeed, the [Awards/JL-OneWorld] Method is the authoritative source for Partner Award Availability on CX flights:

http://Help.KVSTool.com/#CX


Originally Posted by wheresmybagba (Post 24386896)
Whether or not AA will confirm what any of them show is another matter.

If CX Award Availability is shown via the [Awards/JL-OneWorld] Method, then an Award seat can, most definitely, be booked using AADV miles, subject only to the competency of the Agent.


Originally Posted by BostonFlyer1624 (Post 24386815)
I know it stopped working many months ago


Originally Posted by wheresmybagba (Post 24386896)
What stopped working?

Indeed, there have been no changes in that regard.


Originally Posted by JIMCHI (Post 24388445)
It one of just many great features that KVS offers.

We're glad you are continuing to enjoy the benefits of your KVS Tool Membership.

wheresmybagba Feb 21, 2015 2:42 pm


Originally Posted by KVS (Post 24391222)
If CX Award Availability is shown via the [Awards/JL-OneWorld] Method, then an Award seat can, most definitely, be booked using AADV miles, subject only to the competency of the Agent.

It has certainly been documented and tested on other threads that JL can give different results depending on whether the JMB account is registered in the Americas, Europe and Oceania zones etc. In what sense then can you be 'most definite' about it?

LondonElite Feb 21, 2015 2:43 pm

Weirdly, any search from NYC airports (only) on the Awards/Upgrades tab yields:

Error Requesting Data [RD-1]
Error 12002: Timeout
The request has timed out.
Disconnected (30s)

Error 35756: Unable to complete request/MSIE off-line mode activated disconnected

What's going on?

UA-NYC Feb 21, 2015 2:50 pm


Originally Posted by LondonElite (Post 24391897)
Weirdly, any search from NYC airports (only) on the Awards/Upgrades tab yields:

Error Requesting Data [RD-1]
Error 12002: Timeout
The request has timed out.
Disconnected (30s)

Error 35756: Unable to complete request/MSIE off-line mode activated disconnected

What's going on?

+1, been going on for the past week - assuming you're using Awards/BA-Oneworld?

Looks like you can't use NYC anymore, just JFK or EWR


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