Dec 4, 2015, 7:08 am
Last edit by: Bowgie
Delta Comfort+ FAQs
Delta Comfort+ - A New Domestic Branded Fare Product
Summary (effective November 14, 2015, for travel on or after May 16, 2016, in the U.S.50 and Canada):
No selecting C+ seats at time of booking. Eligible pax must request a C+ upgrade by checking the box in the UPGRADE REQUEST section or calling Delta. If upgrade inventory is available, DM and PM may clear after booking. If upgrade inventory is not available, you will remain in your C- seat until such time that DL either releases inventory, or it goes to the airport for gate upgrade.
GM and FO window remains the same at T-72 and T-24 hrs respectively.
Upgrades may automatically place you in any C+ seat, including middle.
F and C+ are separate checkboxes, so you can request an F upgrade without requesting a C+ upgrade. "Double upgrades" from Y to C+ followed by C+ to F are possible.
In your My Delta Preferences page there is a new box where you can choose the default setting for 1st class upgrades and C+ upgrade preferences.
Pax with a companion will be ranked for a C+ upgrade according to the highest level... ie a DM + general member companion in the same PNR will clear after booking..
Maximum of 1 companion may request a C+ upgrade. Per DL FAQ: "If you have three or more passengers in your reservation, all passengers in the reservation must have Medallion status in order for any passengers to be eligible for Delta Comfort+."
Amex Companion Cert flyers are eligible for C+ upgrades.
To "downgrade" to C- seats (exit, other preferred seats) you must call Delta.
Complimentary upgrades to C+, once on board the aircraft, are not allowed regardless of status.
C+ currently not available with corporate discounts, because C+ currently uses ticket designator /WCOM and corporate discounts also use ticket designators. A fare code can only have one ticket designator. This limitation is apparently temporary.
So far Delta is saying this does not impact upgrades to F.
Delta Comfort+ - A New Domestic Branded Fare Product
Summary (effective November 14, 2015, for travel on or after May 16, 2016, in the U.S.50 and Canada):
No selecting C+ seats at time of booking. Eligible pax must request a C+ upgrade by checking the box in the UPGRADE REQUEST section or calling Delta. If upgrade inventory is available, DM and PM may clear after booking. If upgrade inventory is not available, you will remain in your C- seat until such time that DL either releases inventory, or it goes to the airport for gate upgrade.
GM and FO window remains the same at T-72 and T-24 hrs respectively.
Upgrades may automatically place you in any C+ seat, including middle.
F and C+ are separate checkboxes, so you can request an F upgrade without requesting a C+ upgrade. "Double upgrades" from Y to C+ followed by C+ to F are possible.
In your My Delta Preferences page there is a new box where you can choose the default setting for 1st class upgrades and C+ upgrade preferences.
Pax with a companion will be ranked for a C+ upgrade according to the highest level... ie a DM + general member companion in the same PNR will clear after booking..
Maximum of 1 companion may request a C+ upgrade. Per DL FAQ: "If you have three or more passengers in your reservation, all passengers in the reservation must have Medallion status in order for any passengers to be eligible for Delta Comfort+."
Amex Companion Cert flyers are eligible for C+ upgrades.
To "downgrade" to C- seats (exit, other preferred seats) you must call Delta.
Complimentary upgrades to C+, once on board the aircraft, are not allowed regardless of status.
C+ currently not available with corporate discounts, because C+ currently uses ticket designator /WCOM and corporate discounts also use ticket designators. A fare code can only have one ticket designator. This limitation is apparently temporary.
So far Delta is saying this does not impact upgrades to F.
I have two separate flights on May 16, on two separate itineraries. As a PL, I was able to choose C+ seats shortly after booking months ago, by going through the new rigamarole... Today I was notified of upgrades to F on both itineraries, at the upgrade window. So for those who were wondering if a "double upgrade" can happen, yes, it can.
Delta Comfort for flights on/after May 16, 2016
Nov 20, 2015, 3:12 pm
#1111
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this may have been expressed upthread but I'm not scrolling or keyword-searching thru ~1000 posts to find it ... seems to me that C+ is (or is becoming) the new UG "destination seat" ... it would not surprise me at all to eventually see UGs to the front cabin being limited to those pax who PAID REAL MONEY -- not miles, not instruments -- for C+
Still, as I have written a couple of times, there are some major differences between these C+ "upgrades" and the traditional FC upgrades:
- C+ has middle seats on most aircraft. So if elites don't buy the upsells, they face the prospect of being assigned to middle seats.
- FC upgrades specify that revenue upgrades may not take precedence over medallion upgrades. That, however, is clearly not the case with C+ upsells, which are available to anybody at booking
- We also don't know if, when the C- cabin is full, passengers will be automatically seated in the remaining C+ seats at no cost. I would have a hard time believing DL will allow C+ seats to go empty simply because of this new upsell protocol. So imagine spending money for a C+ seat while the person next to you, a kettle, got it for free because this was the only seat remaining in the Y cabin.
Nov 20, 2015, 3:15 pm
#1112
Join Date: Jan 2015
Programs: delta dm
Posts: 1,677
Yes, of course, although that equation applies to anyone flying in Y, elite or kettle.
I can spend $1,800 on a Y ticket and still be forced to buy a C+ upgrade, even as an elite, if my upgrade doesn't clear at the designated window and I really don't want to sit in a middle seat in C+.
The point is that the C+ upsell is just marginal revenue, as you write, little chunks of $19, $39, $99 hits that do not take status or fare basis into account.
So, in this sense, it actually belies what would traditionally be thought of as an upgrade in today's airline business.
Some airlines have revenue upgrades, but these are tightly connected to the initial fare basis. In these cases, the most discounted Y fares usually are not eligible for revenue upgrades and then there is often a sliding scale for the cost of the upgrade based on fare basis.
This new C+ regimen at DL is, in that sense, not an upgrade but really just an upsell.
Whether I've spent $199 round trip or $1,800 round trip, I am subject to the same cost of upsell.
Jut imagine an elite traveling on a full Y having spent, say, $1,800 on a ticket, sitting in C- while a kettle who's spent $199 plus the upsell fee of, say $39 each way, or a total of $277, sitting in C+.
Yes, DL generated an additional $78 in marginal revenue. But if the disgruntled elite cancels his/her refundable ticket, the opportunity cost is $1,800 and the bottom line in this example is a $1,722 loss for the company.
I can spend $1,800 on a Y ticket and still be forced to buy a C+ upgrade, even as an elite, if my upgrade doesn't clear at the designated window and I really don't want to sit in a middle seat in C+.
The point is that the C+ upsell is just marginal revenue, as you write, little chunks of $19, $39, $99 hits that do not take status or fare basis into account.
So, in this sense, it actually belies what would traditionally be thought of as an upgrade in today's airline business.
Some airlines have revenue upgrades, but these are tightly connected to the initial fare basis. In these cases, the most discounted Y fares usually are not eligible for revenue upgrades and then there is often a sliding scale for the cost of the upgrade based on fare basis.
This new C+ regimen at DL is, in that sense, not an upgrade but really just an upsell.
Whether I've spent $199 round trip or $1,800 round trip, I am subject to the same cost of upsell.
Jut imagine an elite traveling on a full Y having spent, say, $1,800 on a ticket, sitting in C- while a kettle who's spent $199 plus the upsell fee of, say $39 each way, or a total of $277, sitting in C+.
Yes, DL generated an additional $78 in marginal revenue. But if the disgruntled elite cancels his/her refundable ticket, the opportunity cost is $1,800 and the bottom line in this example is a $1,722 loss for the company.
Nov 20, 2015, 3:27 pm
#1113
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2003
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Anybody who thinks delta with this new policy is trying to make it easier for dm pm on an x fare m fare or kryptonium fare to get an upgraded c+ seat is out of ther mind. Delta thinks they are going back elites into a corner and the elites are going to pay for themselves or spouse etc for a domestic c+ seat and they are dead wrong.
For a number of years now, DL has been trying to thin its elite ranks.
They've changed to a revenue-based model, increased earning thresholds, etc.
While the average elite may deplore these changes, DL is clearly free to change their loyalty program as they see fit.
This change, however, is not presented as a mechanism to reduce the number of DL SM elites, but simply as a way to make more C+ inventory available for "passengers." Since elites already had C+ available as a free benefit, the only customers who could possibly benefit from such an initiative are kettles.
The issue, though, is that the only way to increase a finite inventory for kettles is to reduce it for elites and, therefore, there is a potentially major problem for elites already battling with increased spending and mileage thresholds, increasingly scarce FC upgrades and continuously more stingy award inventory.
Free C+ is truly one of the few remaining truly important and tangible benefits of DL elite status. If the company starts to play games doling out C+ upgrades forcing its most loyal and highest-spending customers into C+ middle seats they will have a revolt on their hands which will have real consequences for its bottom line.
If they truly want to make revenue C+ inventory more available to kettles, the way to do is increase the C+ inventory.
And if they truly want to continue to cull the elite numbers, they should continue to raise the mileage and spending thresholds.
But reducing one of the few remaining tangible benefits in such a blunt and ineffective manner is fraught with potential problems, that could seriously backfire, eroding not only the company's bottom line but also its hard-earned (and I believe merited) reputation as one of the best airlines in North America.
Nov 20, 2015, 3:49 pm
#1114
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: FLL
Programs: delta pm, aa exp, hilton diamond
Posts: 411
On a given plane, my personal preferences might be: (1) the best (in my opinion) 3 or 4 C+ seats (2) 35 D (3) a few more C+ seats (4) 35 F (5) some more C+ seats . . .
Now, there's no problem: I buy the ticket and select the best seat, according to my own idiosyncratic desires, that's available at that moment. Maybe I check a few times to see if a better seat became available.
Under the new system, I can't do that. If I select 35 D, I might get "upgraded" out of it into a C+ seat I find less preferable, the more preferable C+ seats are taken, and 35 D is gone by the time I try to get it back.
A competent IT department could let me specify preferred seats arbitrarily, but that's not going to happen at Delta.
Now, there's no problem: I buy the ticket and select the best seat, according to my own idiosyncratic desires, that's available at that moment. Maybe I check a few times to see if a better seat became available.
Under the new system, I can't do that. If I select 35 D, I might get "upgraded" out of it into a C+ seat I find less preferable, the more preferable C+ seats are taken, and 35 D is gone by the time I try to get it back.
A competent IT department could let me specify preferred seats arbitrarily, but that's not going to happen at Delta.
Could not agree more this is my major complaint.
Nov 20, 2015, 4:54 pm
#1115
Join Date: Jun 2013
Programs: DL Plat, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Plat, IHG Plat, Hertz Prez Circle, National Exec
Posts: 1,357
that paradigm may work FOR THE INSTANT CASE, the flight in question ... but who's to say that you're the more valuable customer from a macro (annual revenue) perspective?
further, while your B fare may be DTW-RDU, the other guy's X fare may be NRT-DTW-RDU ... without knowing the actual value of the tickets, you can't (well, shouldn't) make that kind of one-size-fits-all generalization
further, while your B fare may be DTW-RDU, the other guy's X fare may be NRT-DTW-RDU ... without knowing the actual value of the tickets, you can't (well, shouldn't) make that kind of one-size-fits-all generalization
Nov 20, 2015, 5:17 pm
#1116
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: missing YX more every day
Programs: Delta KM/PM/MM, Nexus, CLEAR, Sharriott Plat, IHG Plat, Hilton Gold, Hertz PC
Posts: 1,105
YBYL 2.0
So everyone just hang around the gate and keep asking the GA, "Has C+ boarded full?" and once everyone's boarded in tourist class (and maybe had to gate-check a bag), the FA's get to be C+ dragons to keep pax from moving up.
Two more burdens
for the usually excellent DL employees.
Nov 20, 2015, 5:21 pm
#1117
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: SLC, UT USA
Programs: DL DM, Marriott Platinum, Formerly UA 1P/Gold, Hilton Gold
Posts: 215
This. When I flew UA, all seats forward of the exit row were E+, vs. the paltry 3-4 rows in Delta's fleet. If DL are committed to add additional rows of C+ as part of this exercise, then I think it's a good thing.
Nov 20, 2015, 5:25 pm
#1118
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2003
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In fact, while Jeff Smisek originally intended to completely eliminate E+ whoen CO took over UA, he and his team soon discovered that E+ was a very useful tool that contributed positively to the bottom line.
And I think they took the correct approach, namely to creare E+ sections large enough so they could accommodate their elites (without resorting to this upgrade-style system) with enough left-over inventory that could be reliably upsold to kettles.
So they have enough inventory to keep elites happy and enough to provide a reliable source of upsell revenue.
Last edited by TWA Fan 1; Nov 20, 2015 at 5:40 pm
Nov 20, 2015, 5:49 pm
#1119
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Verdi, NV, SFO & Olympic (aka Squaw )Valley.
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Posts: 3,826
Three thoughts:
Ultimately we can thank our political leaders for "flyer friendly" changes. Consolidation means less competition.
Airlines view loyalty programs as us being loyal to them, not the other way around.
More non-revs will get C+. (Either good or bad depending on your perspective.)
Ultimately we can thank our political leaders for "flyer friendly" changes. Consolidation means less competition.
Airlines view loyalty programs as us being loyal to them, not the other way around.
More non-revs will get C+. (Either good or bad depending on your perspective.)
Nov 20, 2015, 6:00 pm
#1120
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Join Date: Nov 2009
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Three thoughts:
Ultimately we can thank our political leaders for "flyer friendly" changes. Consolidation means less competition.
Airlines view loyalty programs as us being loyal to them, not the other way around.
More non-revs will get C+. (Either good or bad depending on your perspective.)
Ultimately we can thank our political leaders for "flyer friendly" changes. Consolidation means less competition.
Airlines view loyalty programs as us being loyal to them, not the other way around.
More non-revs will get C+. (Either good or bad depending on your perspective.)
2- ^^ ... "We've got your back!" and similar mantras are nothing but marketing-speak; Delta corporate leadership must REALLY hope we (the better-informed frequent flyer community, particularly the elite community) don't wake up and smell the coffee
3- as you said, those who already hold an opinion about non-revs in F will probably apply that same opinion to non-revs in C+
Nov 20, 2015, 6:02 pm
#1121
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: SEA
Programs: AS 75k
Posts: 922
I received the bogus reply to my initial complaint... only took them 4 days. One of the best lines was referring to the change bring the result of extensive feedback from a lot of pax saying they are unable to purchase C+ seats on a lot of their flights, which is a blatant lie. Anyone can purchase C+ now. Its offered as a fee per segment when you book a flight and in your itinerary.
A big push of the previous change (Free C+ for GM/FO at 72/24 hours) was that DM/PMs complained they couldn't get C+ seats when booking short notice. And as a GM-then-FO-now that actually made sense and was quite fair.
But this change seems to reward nobody, especially since most businesses don't allow buying higher fare classes. And for a moderate traveler like me, it no longer makes much sense to retain status when it costs me a fair bit of money to do so, when I could simply choose the cheapest EC seat of the airlines.
While the rollout of this has been frustrating and didn't work for me the way they said it would, I CAN see a DM and PM benefit. There are MANY times that I have bought an expensive last-minute ticket and only center seats were available in C+, and actually a flight last week from HNL where there were NO seats in C+ (and J was sold out). If they hold back, the right people in the right order will have the option of the C+ seats as it will "upgrade" by status then fare. While I don't like the idea of ending up in a center seat, let's wait to see this in practice before getting too upset.
And by right, you mean... you.
So I'm with you. I'm one flight from maintaining status, so I will, but 2017 seems unlikely.
I'll own up to having used the +8 rule once (several years ago) to fly my hockey team to a tournament. I was staggered by the rule then - appreciative, admittedly, but it made no sense.
Changing from +8 to +1 seems like the way to accomplish the same thing.
It's been a couple of pages and no one has picked up on rylan's find: "You Board You Lose" will apply 100% to C+; the nice GA will not pull you up, and you'd better not try to move yourself. This has nothing to do with on-time departures.
So everyone just hang around the gate and keep asking the GA, "Has C+ boarded full?" and once everyone's boarded in tourist class (and maybe had to gate-check a bag), the FA's get to be C+ dragons to keep pax from moving up.
Two more burdens for the usually excellent DL employees.
So everyone just hang around the gate and keep asking the GA, "Has C+ boarded full?" and once everyone's boarded in tourist class (and maybe had to gate-check a bag), the FA's get to be C+ dragons to keep pax from moving up.
Two more burdens
for the usually excellent DL employees.
Nov 20, 2015, 6:06 pm
#1122
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: NYC
Programs: Delta SM
Posts: 105
>So imagine spending money for a C+ seat while the person next to you, a kettle, got it for free because this was the only seat remaining in the Y cabin.
Already happening. Plenty of "kettles" are getting free c+ at the last minute.
Already happening. Plenty of "kettles" are getting free c+ at the last minute.
Nov 20, 2015, 6:45 pm
#1123
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The difference is that, depending on how DL implements this "upgrade" scheme, DL's elites face the prospect of having their upgrade clear at the same time as the kettles, meaning that both are more likely to sit in middle seats.
As I've written a few times, this scenario would essentially eliminate one of the few remaining tangible benefits of elite status.
Nov 20, 2015, 9:06 pm
#1124
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: FLL / BKK
Posts: 703
This makes me think of another question. What do they gain by running DM/PM F upgrades 6 days out?
Nov 20, 2015, 9:15 pm
#1125
Moderator: Hyatt; FlyerTalk Evangelist
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After traveling on an expensive last minute ticket over the last 2 days I agree. It would be nice to at least have a shot at F if buying a ticket after the comp upgrades run 6 days out. Technically a V fare plat can get cleared at the window and the M fare diamond sits in back. One or two GAP fare SDC's and there go all the seats.
This makes me think of another question. What do they gain by running DM/PM F upgrades 6 days out?
This makes me think of another question. What do they gain by running DM/PM F upgrades 6 days out?
That being said I'm sure revenue management takes this into account when deciding whether to clear that V-fare DM 6 days out or to hold back inventory. They won't get it 100% correct but close is probably good enough.