Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Airlines and Mileage Programs > British Airways | Executive Club
Reload this Page >

The 2018 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004

The 2018 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004

    Hide Wikipost
Old Dec 17, 18, 5:14 am   -   Wikipost
Please read: This is a community-maintained wiki post containing the most important information from this thread. You may edit the Wiki once you have been on FT for 90 days and have made 90 posts.
 
Last edit by: serfty
Wiki Link
Link to Text of the regulations in PDF format

How about a Wiki to post EU comp given/denied as well as results for any CEDR or other process. Especially concerning the 787 issue as there are going to be many claims given all the cancellations.

Mine was April 22 BA280 LAX-LHR cancellation 4 days before flight and rebooked on later flight and arrived 4.5 hrs later than origianlly scheduled. BA's response was to deny for "operational" requirements though the 787 "tentatively assigned" G-ZBJG was used instead for a LHR-YUL flight that same day. CEDR filed and awaiting their initial review. Sept 3rd UPDATE: CEDR decision in Article 7 comp awarded in the amount of 600 euro as even though extraordinary circumstances are present in an engine defect as this, BA didn't show that they took reasonable steps to avoid the cancellation as they have known since Oct 2017 of this issue.
Print Wikipost

Closed Thread

Old Aug 29, 18, 12:58 am
  #1231  
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 38,070
Originally Posted by aristoph View Post
So BA is ignoring my claim for EC261 compensation for my cancelled IOM-LCY flight over two weeks ago now. Any advice on how to move this along guys?
You may need to leave it a month unless you have Silver or Gold status (they typically get replies fairly quickly if it is straightforward, as this case should be). If you want it to move more quickly, and assuming you got the automated incident log number on the email back, then you could call Customer Relations during the UK afternoons, 13hrs to 17hrs, Monday to Fridays.
corporate-wage-slave is online now  
Old Aug 29, 18, 9:18 am
  #1232  
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: London, UK
Programs: Aadvantage Platinum BAEC Blue
Posts: 16
Originally Posted by o2bmmw View Post
Hello All,

BA has been cancelling a lot of flights on the 787-900 into EWR in the last week. I will be taking one of these flights in a few weeks. In the event of another cancellation, there are few OW flights into EWR. Can BA require us to re-route into JFK? If so, would they provide compensation to get back to EWR or would we be on our own (for those who don't fly there, those 2 airports are 35-40 miles apart, depending upon the route, but can take 2 hours to get to depending on the time of day).

If that's what we are offered are we free to refuse? If we do refuse are we entitled to compensation?

Is there any likelihood that BA would offer a United flight even though it's not OW? Thanks!
I was due to fly on BA188 on Thursday 30th August between EWR-LHR. I made initial contact via twitter about claiming under EC261. The response was I would not be entitled to compensation because the 787 was having engine checks. Where do I stand?

Thanks in advance
nickplaton is offline  
Old Aug 29, 18, 9:25 am
  #1233  
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 38,070
Originally Posted by nickplaton View Post
I was due to fly on BA188 on Thursday 30th August between EWR-LHR. I made initial contact via twitter about claiming under EC261. The response was I would not be entitled to compensation because the 787 was having engine checks. Where do I stand?
Personally I think it is very much up for challenge. BA simply don't have enough aircraft to run the schedule, and the 787 is a long term issue. It would be an even stronger argument if it was LHR-EWR, but on the basis that there is presumably no LHR-EWR service either then personally I don't think BA have a strong case. They do have some legal backing for their argument, but my view would be that those court cases would relate to an immediate grounding of a large fleet for immediate safety works, rather than the situation BA is in. Now because BA do have some basis for refusing your claim, if you were UK based I would be looking at MCOL rather than CEDR. Assuming, of course, the replacement service is outside the timeframes explained at the top of the thread.

Unfortunately despite all those affected by this long running saga, not one single FTer has been prepared to take this all the way through MCOL and then explain what happened here.
corporate-wage-slave is online now  
Old Aug 29, 18, 9:34 am
  #1234  
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: London, UK
Programs: Aadvantage Platinum BAEC Blue
Posts: 16
Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave View Post
Personally I think it is very much up for challenge. BA simply don't have enough aircraft to run the schedule, and the 787 is a long term issue. It would be an even stronger argument if it was LHR-EWR, but on the basis that there is presumably no LHR-EWR service either then personally I don't think BA have a strong case. They do have some legal backing for their argument, but my view would be that those court cases would relate to an immediate grounding of a large fleet for immediate safety works, rather than the situation BA is in. Now because BA do have some basis for refusing your claim, if you were UK based I would be looking at MCOL rather than CEDR. Assuming, of course, the replacement service is outside the timeframes explained at the top of the thread.

Unfortunately despite all those affected by this long running saga, not one single FTer has been prepared to take this all the way through MCOL and then explain what happened here.
Thanks for your reply. I am UK based. If I were to go down the MCOL route, what would be my basis for the claim; just claiming for the €600 that I feel I'm entitled to? As I am staying with family, there is no accommodation cost; as a teacher, school doesn't start until Monday (so loss of time isn't an issue) So there wasn't really a financial impact on me. I decided to take the next day BA188 from EWR as I am staying close to the airport. They replaced the flight with a 772. Could the fact I wanted the flight the next day cause a problem for my case? There are only 2 flights to LHR from EWR. 188 is the 9:35pm flight.

Cheers in advance

Last edited by nickplaton; Aug 29, 18 at 9:41 am
nickplaton is offline  
Old Aug 29, 18, 9:55 am
  #1235  
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 38,070
Originally Posted by nickplaton View Post
Thanks for your reply. I am UK based. If I were to go down the MCOL route, what would be my basis for the claim; just claiming for the €600 that I feel I'm entitled to? As I am staying with family, there is no accommodation cost; as a teacher, school doesn't start until Monday (so loss of time isn't an issue) So there wasn't really a financial impact on me. I decided to take the next day BA188 from EWR as I am staying close to the airport. They replaced the flight with a 772. Could the fact I wanted the flight the next day cause a problem for my case? There are only 2 flights to LHR from EWR. 188 is the 9:35pm flight.
The basis of the claim would be a cancellation / rebook beyond the allowed timescales under Article 7, where extraordinary circumstances do not apply. As a secondary argument, which is allowed under MCOL, you could say that even if extraordinary circumstances applies, this activity is inherent in flight operations, plus there is more BA could do to minimise the impact (e.g. using an alternative aircraft, routing you on alternative airlines). However it's not entirely clear from the details provided: if they offered you a seat on the the 772 that day, or offered a JFK service within the timescales, then I don't see BA being liable for an Article 7 claim. If you went out of your way to suggest the next day's service then that may count against you, if you went out of your way to ask for alternative services close to your original booking, that would count in your favour.
corporate-wage-slave is online now  
Old Aug 29, 18, 10:03 am
  #1236  
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: London, UK
Programs: Aadvantage Platinum BAEC Blue
Posts: 16
Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave View Post
The basis of the claim would be a cancellation / rebook beyond the allowed timescales under Article 7, where extraordinary circumstances do not apply. As a secondary argument, which is allowed under MCOL, you could say that even if extraordinary circumstances applies, this activity is inherent in flight operations, plus there is more BA could do to minimise the impact (e.g. using an alternative aircraft, routing you on alternative airlines). However it's not entirely clear from the details provided: if they offered you a seat on the the 772 that day, or offered a JFK service within the timescales, then I don't see BA being liable for an Article 7 claim. If you went out of your way to suggest the next day's service then that may count against you, if you went out of your way to ask for alternative services close to your original booking, that would count in your favour.
I had to go through AA as it was an AA ticket. I was offered other flights before the original flight but from JFK but I didn't want to leave from JFK. I asked for the next day 9:35pm flight from EWR. So I guess it would count against me then.
nickplaton is offline  
Old Aug 29, 18, 10:09 am
  #1237  
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 38,070
Originally Posted by nickplaton View Post
I had to go through AA as it was an AA ticket. I was offered other flights before the original flight but from JFK but I didn't want to leave from JFK. I asked for the next day 9:35pm flight from EWR. So I guess it would count against me then.
Well, not to put too fine a point on it, it depends what BA knows about your conversation with AA.....
corporate-wage-slave is online now  
Old Aug 29, 18, 7:35 pm
  #1238  
Hyatt Contributor Badge
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Programs: QF, 06, GA, Hyatt, Marriott
Posts: 2,535
Originally Posted by nickplaton View Post
I was due to fly on BA188 on Thursday 30th August between EWR-LHR. I made initial contact via twitter about claiming under EC261. The response was I would not be entitled to compensation because the 787 was having engine checks. Where do I stand?

Thanks in advance
Oh this is laughable, BA. "Sorry, you're not entitled to compensation because a flight attendant got stuck in peak hour traffic". "Sorry, you're not entitled to compensation because the catering truck ran out of fuel". "Sorry, you're not entitled to compensation because the printer in the dispatch office was out of ink". Get a grip, BA.
danger is online now  
Old Aug 30, 18, 1:16 am
  #1239  
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6,246
Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave View Post
Unfortunately despite all those affected by this long running saga, not one single FTer has been prepared to take this all the way through MCOL and then explain what happened here.
I'm surprised that Bott & Co haven't had a test case yet on the 787 saga.

Seems there are several areas where this is the case, such as the MF strike action.
simons1 is offline  
Old Aug 30, 18, 9:07 am
  #1240  
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Programs: BAEC
Posts: 2
Aircraft assignment

Originally Posted by rbAA View Post
I considered MCOL but felt that with my previous legal experience (practiced law for 15 years, with substantial trial experience,) and having the time and resources to do the technical and legal analysis, CEDR was the best option. It really isn't as close an issue as others make it out and your comment about the fleet make up was something that I incorporated into my reply to BA's defense statement. I appreciate your input.
They relied on section 38 of the van der Lans case plus the Wallentine case, both of which held in favor of the passenger, as the engine problems there were considered inherent in the operation of an airline. I'm sure if it was an airline that only had one type of aircraft, all with the same engines (ala WN in the US,) that might present another problem. But here, BA has 28 787's of which 3 were down as of last December (they didn't update the current maintenance status.) However, they have a total of 134 long-haul aircraft, including the 28 787's, that have the range for LAX-LHR. So while it's 10% of their 787 fleet, it's only 2% of their long-haul fleet.. Plus they waited until after the US FAA issued their April 26th directive (8 days after the cancellation notice and 4 days after my flight date,) further restricting ETOPS opps, to take steps to solve the fleet management issue, going to QR (which owns 20% of IAG, parent of BA, et al,) to wet-lease 3 A330's. Plus, as I mentioned previously, the particular aircraft, G-ZBJG a 787-800, originally assigned for this flight was shifted to the LHR-YUL-LHR route that day. It didn't go out of service until April 29 for 6 days at London. So, it's fleet management at that time. Plus they attached the summary of the op log, showing the reaon for cancellation as "OPEN." SO, they won't be able to satisfy their burdan of proof that this is extraordinary circumstances.
Thanks again.
I have a very similar case I want to pursue via MCOL (BA customer relations has refused compensation) and I want to look into the aircraft assignment for the flight that was cancelled. When I requested this, BA declined to provide that info. Is there a way after the fact to see what aircraft was assigned for a particular flight? I've used BAsource to get other info. It was the BA69 on 27/8 so it was a 787-900, but the flight wasn't cancelled until 21/8 and the two birds that went in for maintenance (G-ZBKI and G-ZBKD) did so 4 and 5 days before that respectively and BA admit in their email that this was done to rescheduling of various flights (but still saying that direct cause is the engine-related extraordinary circumstances), so I'm trying to look into whether one of those two was actually assigned or if the aircraft assigned flew another route that day. I am thinking that they might not have taken reasonable measures here given the delay in cancelling the flight and because this was quite probably down to fleet management. (They also tried to argue with me that the burden of proof to show that it was extraordinary circumstances was on them and kept insisting it was mine—humph!). Any other advice much welcomed! I am also considering contact Bott & Co.

Last edited by nrw24; Aug 30, 18 at 9:15 am
nrw24 is offline  
Old Aug 30, 18, 10:25 am
  #1241  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Bangkok and Palm Coast, FL. Exiled, again, from the Bay Area.
Programs: Only the good ones
Posts: 4,382
Originally Posted by nrw24 View Post
I have a very similar case I want to pursue via MCOL (BA customer relations has refused compensation) and I want to look into the aircraft assignment for the flight that was cancelled. When I requested this, BA declined to provide that info. Is there a way after the fact to see what aircraft was assigned for a particular flight? I've used BAsource to get other info. It was the BA69 on 27/8 so it was a 787-900, but the flight wasn't cancelled until 21/8 and the two birds that went in for maintenance (G-ZBKI and G-ZBKD) did so 4 and 5 days before that respectively and BA admit in their email that this was done to rescheduling of various flights (but still saying that direct cause is the engine-related extraordinary circumstances), so I'm trying to look into whether one of those two was actually assigned or if the aircraft assigned flew another route that day. I am thinking that they might not have taken reasonable measures here given the delay in cancelling the flight and because this was quite probably down to fleet management. (They also tried to argue with me that the burden of proof to show that it was extraordinary circumstances was on them and kept insisting it was mine—humph!). Any other advice much welcomed! I am also considering contact Bott & Co.
I used the information from the following:
https://flightaware.com/live/fleet/BAW
British Airways Jet Tracker
My CEDR decision was due on Aug 25th but as with anything dealing with BA, it's late. BA did pay the Article 9 compensation last month, but I'm still waiting the decision on the Article 7 and 8 comp.
rbAA is offline  
Old Aug 30, 18, 11:36 am
  #1242  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ipswich
Programs: BA GGL, Royal Ambassador
Posts: 305
Naughty BA ? - When is a cancellation not a cancellation/downgrade

Hi all, a quick bit of advice would be appreciated. I'm booked to travel to TLV in First on 6th October on the 16:45 departure, and a few days ago I got the ping of an email and a text message to say the flight had been cancelled and I'd been re-booked onto the morning TLV flight in First. I'd assumed that this was a 787 replacement issue given it was so far ahead, and I've had a few of y SJC's cancelled so was kinda conditioned into thinking that.

Anyway, I thought I'd have a look before calling BA at the timings of the other flights, and was shocked to see the 16:45 departure still for sale - so I called up and asked them if on my booking the outbound was cancelled. The operator told me it was showing as cancelled, I then asked them to look to see if the flight was actually running, and they confirmed it was.

It seems the flight wasn't cancelled at all, but swapped from a 4 to a 3 class 777. So here is where my questions begin

1) Do I give BA the benefit of the doubt, as the flight isn't cancelled, and it could appear they were trying to get out of paying appropriate compensation for what should have been an involuntary downgrade - or do you think this is just incompetence, anyone had this before ?
2) I can't make the earlier flight they have moved me to in F, and they've now told me there isn't any Club seating left on the three-class 777 that's replaced my four-class 777, so all they could offer me on that now is WT+ (so a double downgrade) - if I accept that, is that then a 'voluntary' downgrade, as they are offering me first on another flight.
3) If a double-downgrade does that change compensation, as I've rolled all the way from a First product, through Business and down to an Economy product (which I'm actually shocked they would allow to happen).

Ironically, had they have just downgraded me (and not pretend the flight was cancelled) they would have got me a seat in business as a colleague of mine managed to book one to travel with me after that cancellation txt that I got it turns out, so this seems to be a fine mess that BA has got itself into.

Would really welcome any thoughts from the wisdom of the group

Ed
TeamStorm is offline  
Old Aug 30, 18, 11:43 am
  #1243  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,913
Originally Posted by TeamStorm View Post
1) Do I give BA the benefit of the doubt
Would BA ever give you benefit of the doubt?

Depending on how you answer that, will determine how you should proceed.
rossmacd is offline  
Old Aug 30, 18, 11:45 am
  #1244  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ipswich
Programs: BA GGL, Royal Ambassador
Posts: 305
Originally Posted by rossmacd View Post
Would BA ever give you benefit of the doubt?

Depending on how you answer that, will determine how you should proceed.
From time to time yes, agent was very apologetic about it, but with one data point I can't make a judgement, hence wondering if others have seen this, or if it is a one-off glitch (always possible with BA)
TeamStorm is offline  
Old Aug 30, 18, 12:44 pm
  #1245  
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 38,070
Originally Posted by TeamStorm View Post
1) Do I give BA the benefit of the doubt, as the flight isn't cancelled, and it could appear they were trying to get out of paying appropriate compensation for what should have been an involuntary downgrade - or do you think this is just incompetence, anyone had this before ?
2) I can't make the earlier flight they have moved me to in F, and they've now told me there isn't any Club seating left on the three-class 777 that's replaced my four-class 777, so all they could offer me on that now is WT+ (so a double downgrade) - if I accept that, is that then a 'voluntary' downgrade, as they are offering me first on another flight.
It is standard procedure on BA that if there is an equipment change that leads to either First or WTP no longer being offered then it comes over to the user as a cancellation. This has some advantages since it allows easy rebooking to other services, including perhaps another trip to Israel if that suits you. It also allows a full refund, and to get to TLV by some other route - and there are many such options including off course Iberia (which BA should be able to offer to you, I think). BA have in the past tried to argue that this cancellation, if more than 2 weeks notice is given, means they feel they don't owe you the downgrade cancellation reimbursement in EC261, however they no longer allow that to go to an MCOL hearing. So long as it is properly argued against the wording of EC261 then BA can't really avoid that reimbursement. They obviously are ok to give their own Involuntary Refund calculation, which is unlikely to be better than EC261 in this case, though it will depend on what you paid. So in short I think you are OK for EC261 reimbursement, if that is the route you decide to go. There has been a number of debates in this forum about whether cancellation does or does not allow rebooking without reimbursement, this can be seen in the archive of this thread, and there's no point reheating that argument here.

However given the flight is so far off, it is for certain that at least one CW seat will come up for sale between now and then, and so I would hold off accepting the WTP offer and keep checking the flight, using ExpertFlyer to watch the buckets. As soon as you see J1 then you can jump in. You would still be entitled to reimbursement for downgrading, if you stick to the original flight number. However in terms of this question.....

Originally Posted by TeamStorm View Post
3) If a double-downgrade does that change compensation, as I've rolled all the way from a First product, through Business and down to an Economy product (which I'm actually shocked they would allow to happen).
There is of course no EC261 compensation for downgrades, just a reimbursement calculation explained at the top of the thread. It makes no difference to that calculation if you end up in WT, WTP or CW. However BA have in the past offered customer remediation - varying from very generous (e.g. YVR) to zero - for First downgrades. You should certainly ask YouFirst about this, though I suspect they will say "write to Customer Relations after the flight".

I hope you can reach a suitable agreement with BA on what happens next. If not, then you would need to think MCOL, not CEDR, since there is at least one CEDR staff member who simply doesn't understand the wording of the Regulation in this area, even though they are very clear.
corporate-wage-slave is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread