AC Presence on FT
May 20, 2014, 8:28 pm
#571
formerly with Air Canada
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: YYZ YUL
Posts: 423
Hi Ben,
I've always been curious as to why in some scenarios AC has interline agreements with non Star Alliance airlines instead of partnering with a fellow alliance member?
An example would be YYZ-TPE with the TPAC leg flown by AC, and connecting from HKG-TPE on Cathay or Dragonair. Wouldn't EVA or ANA (through NRT or HND) be a more logical partner?
I've always been curious as to why in some scenarios AC has interline agreements with non Star Alliance airlines instead of partnering with a fellow alliance member?
An example would be YYZ-TPE with the TPAC leg flown by AC, and connecting from HKG-TPE on Cathay or Dragonair. Wouldn't EVA or ANA (through NRT or HND) be a more logical partner?
via NRT/HND/ICN/HKG/SFO with NH JL BR CI KE OZ CX UA
We very rarely codeshare with a competing alliance member.
May 20, 2014, 8:29 pm
#572
formerly with Air Canada
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: YYZ YUL
Posts: 423
Welcome Ben and Ben!
As we all know, priority boarding has become a real fiasco and needs to be addressed. Many here have already highlighted the issues they encountered - such as half the plane boarding when priority boarding is initiated, etc.
Are there forthcoming changes to priority boarding? What about considerations for a zoned approach?
Thanks again,
Dave
As we all know, priority boarding has become a real fiasco and needs to be addressed. Many here have already highlighted the issues they encountered - such as half the plane boarding when priority boarding is initiated, etc.
Are there forthcoming changes to priority boarding? What about considerations for a zoned approach?
Thanks again,
Dave
May 20, 2014, 8:30 pm
#573
Suspended
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC E50K (*G) WS Gold | SPG/Fairmont Plat Hilton/Hyatt Diamond Marriott Silver | National Exec Elite
Posts: 19,284
Hey Ben,
Love your responses. I'll keep this quick and keep my fingers crossed you'll answer this
We've lost the USAir lounge in CLT as a *G lounge so now there is no lounge in CLT for *G members. Also, the UA lounge for DFW is in a different terminal when going from DFW to YYZ...as an example. Anything you can share?
I'll second the request for meals preorder. I've resorted to instant noodles and the new sushi in Y because the 4 meals...well I get the uneasy feeling now due to the amounts I have consumed as I only fly domestic, haha!
PS thanks for looking into the creamers issue for NLML and VOML! As for priority boarding, my only opinion is that there should be a separation between altitude members....there are a TON of E35K members...little blue tags are everywhere! haha
Love your responses. I'll keep this quick and keep my fingers crossed you'll answer this
We've lost the USAir lounge in CLT as a *G lounge so now there is no lounge in CLT for *G members. Also, the UA lounge for DFW is in a different terminal when going from DFW to YYZ...as an example. Anything you can share?
I'll second the request for meals preorder. I've resorted to instant noodles and the new sushi in Y because the 4 meals...well I get the uneasy feeling now due to the amounts I have consumed as I only fly domestic, haha!
PS thanks for looking into the creamers issue for NLML and VOML! As for priority boarding, my only opinion is that there should be a separation between altitude members....there are a TON of E35K members...little blue tags are everywhere! haha
May 20, 2014, 8:39 pm
#574
Join Date: Jul 2005
Programs: SQ *Gold
Posts: 871
Ritz Carlton/Marriott/Courtyard by Marriott/Residence Inn by Marriott Fairfield by Marriott
Giorgio Armani/Emporio Armani/Armani Exchange/Armani Jeans
Singapore Airlines/Scoot/Silk Air/(TigerAir)
Cathay Pacific/Dragonair
Once size fits all is much easier however the Canadian consumer wants different products/services/prices for different types of trips.
Giorgio Armani/Emporio Armani/Armani Exchange/Armani Jeans
Singapore Airlines/Scoot/Silk Air/(TigerAir)
Cathay Pacific/Dragonair
Once size fits all is much easier however the Canadian consumer wants different products/services/prices for different types of trips.
Yes, Marriott and Starwood and Hilton etc have multiple brands under their portfolio, but they have done a much better job of distinguishing them in their branding and marketing. Further, you don't check-in at a Courtyard by Marriott when paying for a Ritz Carlton, so there is less physical confusion about the conflation of product offerings.
The examples you cite of CX and SQ and their regional/leisure subsidiaries also reinforce my point, I think. SQ does not call Silk Air 'Singapore Airlines Silk Air'. Further, Silk Air and SQ have separate check-in desks at Changi with different brand imagery - the famous purple and yellow phoenix logo at SQ desks and the green seagull at SilkAir. Silk Air also has its own dedicated website completely separate from SQ. SQ management has very specifically ensured that the SQ brand is not brought down by being associated with a leisure carrier with lesser service while also managing to have multiple airline brands within its group. The same can be said for Scoot. Most people here in Singapore, where I live, do not know that Scoot is owned by SQ at all and just assume it is a separate airline. Yo do not check in at the SQ counters for a Scoot flight and you certainly do not use the SQ website to book it! Contrast that with Rouge which maintains "Air Canada" in its name and leverages off of the brand history by using the famous roundel in its livery.
Finally, AC has a history of launching odd-sounding subsidiary brands (namely, Zip and Tango) and then withdrawing them, which further adds to the confusion and adds to the challenges of building and marketing a succesful brand. Silk Air has operated with its own brand image and marketing for decades.
So, in short, I really don't object to the business decision of launching a leisure carrier or your justification of the economics driving the decision to transfer many of these routes. What I do assert though is that the PR and Marketing campaign accompanying the launch of AC Rouge has not been successful in managing expectations, differentiating the brands and explaining what AC is trying to accomplish.
Last edited by jbb; May 20, 2014 at 8:45 pm
May 20, 2014, 8:43 pm
#575
Suspended
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: YKF
Programs: AC Elite 50K, Amex AP Plat, Choice Privileges, National Exec Elite, Via Prefrence
Posts: 2,996
Our main domestic competitor has no tier program or corresponding benefits but continues to make significant inroads into the domestic market. We've had to adapt our program to better reflect the new marketplace reality. Altitude P25 E35 E50 E75 SE100 continue to offer the best benefits of any domestic carrier at all levels. Do you know of any NA carrier that provides the basket of benefits we offer to E35s? Lounge access/Priority Services/Int UGs?
I do think the 25% AQM on Tango fares should be bumped up to 50% for domestic travel. Crossing the country via the US (either through 2 separate bookings or say BUF-SEA flight) is a risk if the value proposition becomes unachievable (which I think is a problem).
Calin himself made a speech at the Wings Club in NY regarding the difficulties in competing with border city airports. Raising the value of the Altitude program is a way to compete against competitors who have you beat on lowest (aggregate) cost. Not devaluing it.
May 20, 2014, 8:45 pm
#576
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: YYZ
Programs: UA1K2MM ACMME50 SQPPS HHDiamond Marriott Lifetime Titanium
Posts: 4,391
For SE100K no way.
All 3 major US carriers offer far better benefits.
As UA1k for a decade I can say UA1k benefits blow AC SE benefits out of water.
1. Can apply for upgrade @ time of ticketing subject to R being available. In fall UA refined their upgrade procedure. If a 1K is waitlisted, & historical data shows 3 /4 weeks before there will be J available on day of departure, IM clears the upgrade. I have had several upgrade clear 4 weeks prior on most popular routes. SYD-SFO/LAX . HKG-SFO, SFO-FRA. Transcon From SFO-to East coast Hubs. Award waitlist clearing on Christmas period to & from Australia in J & F in saver awards. Similar to when AC SE offered 1KK .
2. No change fees for confirmed change 24 hours prior to the flight or same day including international on any published fare.
3. No fees to change or cancel award bookings. Numerous times I have had to change same award booking 3-4 times, & have paid not a penny.
4. As Million miller I can gift *Gold.
5.SWU earned have 12 months expire from the day earned, unlike AC E-upgrades earned in Nov have shelf life of 3 months FEB of the following year.
6. Cancellation due weather, 1Ks get hotel room with meals & transfers.
7. Equipment not working in flight, travel certs with value from 200.00 to 400.00 for 1Ks including IFE. With AC 5% of base fare if lucky, most of the time nada including long haul flights.
Contrary to recent posts on United forum, the New United has given me & continue to give me fantastic customer service. I have posted this on UA forum.
Above a few of the benefits that come to mind. There are others.
As I have posted many times on this forum & UA Forum; if there comes a time when my travel is reduced and I have to choose between
AC SE or UA1k, no brainer UA1K. In a heartbeat,
Delta & AA from feedback I am getting from AC SE who have taken advantage of Comp status to DELTA's Diamond & AA Top Tier, the benefits are similar to United 1K & way better than what they received in the past couple of years.
Last edited by yyzprincess; May 20, 2014 at 8:56 pm
May 20, 2014, 9:00 pm
#577
formerly with Air Canada
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: YYZ YUL
Posts: 423
I can see the logic behind your reasoning, but would contend that a major problem with the launch of Rouge has been the marketing and branding. In general, I accept that having mainline service operating on many of these leisure routes probably is not sustainable. However, what has bothered many people (both frequent flyers and average consumers) is the idea that AC is trying to 'trick' people into thinking they're flying AC, when they are getting a far reduced service. Something clearly has not gone right when my friends and relatives (not frequent flyers, but the average Canadian consumer) say they were 'surprised' to be put on a Rouge flight, when they were expecting mainline service. Expectations have not been managed well and this has led to ill-will. This is a PR and brand building problem more than anything.
Yes, Marriott and Starwood and Hilton etc have multiple brands under their portfolio, but they have done a much better job of distinguishing them in their branding and marketing. Further, you don't check-in at a Courtyard by Marriott when paying for a Ritz Carlton, so there is less physical confusion about the conflation of product offerings.
The examples you cite of CX and SQ and their regional/leisure subsidiaries also reinforce my point, I think. SQ does not call Silk Air 'Singapore Airlines Silk Air'. Further, Silk Air and SQ have separate check-in desks at Changi with different brand imagery - the famous purple and yellow phoenix logo at SQ desks and the green seagull at SilkAir. Silk Air also has its own dedicated website completely separate from SQ. SQ management has very specifically ensured that the SQ brand is not brought down by being associated with a leisure carrier with lesser service while also managing to have multiple airline brands within its group. The same can be said for Scoot. Most people here in Singapore, where I live, do not know that Scoot is owned by SQ at all and just assume it is a separate airline. Yo do not check in at the SQ counters for a Scoot flight and you certainly do not use the SQ website to book it! Contrast that with Rouge which maintains "Air Canada" in its name and leverages off of the brand history by using the famous roundel in its livery.
Finally, AC has a history of launching odd-sounding subsidiary brands (namely, Zip and Tango) and then withdrawing them, which further adds to the confusion and adds to the challenges of building and marketing a succesful brand. Silk Air has operated with its own brand image and marketing for decades.
So, in short, I really don't object to the business decision of launching a leisure carrier or your justification of the economics driving the decision to transfer many of these routes. What I do assert though is that the PR and Marketing campaign accompanying the launch of AC Rouge has not been successful in managing expectations, differentiating the brands and explaining what AC is trying to accomplish.
Yes, Marriott and Starwood and Hilton etc have multiple brands under their portfolio, but they have done a much better job of distinguishing them in their branding and marketing. Further, you don't check-in at a Courtyard by Marriott when paying for a Ritz Carlton, so there is less physical confusion about the conflation of product offerings.
The examples you cite of CX and SQ and their regional/leisure subsidiaries also reinforce my point, I think. SQ does not call Silk Air 'Singapore Airlines Silk Air'. Further, Silk Air and SQ have separate check-in desks at Changi with different brand imagery - the famous purple and yellow phoenix logo at SQ desks and the green seagull at SilkAir. Silk Air also has its own dedicated website completely separate from SQ. SQ management has very specifically ensured that the SQ brand is not brought down by being associated with a leisure carrier with lesser service while also managing to have multiple airline brands within its group. The same can be said for Scoot. Most people here in Singapore, where I live, do not know that Scoot is owned by SQ at all and just assume it is a separate airline. Yo do not check in at the SQ counters for a Scoot flight and you certainly do not use the SQ website to book it! Contrast that with Rouge which maintains "Air Canada" in its name and leverages off of the brand history by using the famous roundel in its livery.
Finally, AC has a history of launching odd-sounding subsidiary brands (namely, Zip and Tango) and then withdrawing them, which further adds to the confusion and adds to the challenges of building and marketing a succesful brand. Silk Air has operated with its own brand image and marketing for decades.
So, in short, I really don't object to the business decision of launching a leisure carrier or your justification of the economics driving the decision to transfer many of these routes. What I do assert though is that the PR and Marketing campaign accompanying the launch of AC Rouge has not been successful in managing expectations, differentiating the brands and explaining what AC is trying to accomplish.
May 20, 2014, 9:15 pm
#578
Join Date: Jan 2001
Programs: AC SEMM
Posts: 724
Latitude vs Premimum Economy
Hello Ben and Ben,
Thanks for all your answers. My question:
I am a heavy user of Latitude Flight Passes, including Europe Passes. Given that Latitude is more expensive than Premium Economy most if not all the time, why does a Latitude fare not automatically get a PE seat? I have yet to be in a position where this is an issue, but just wondering...
Best
Visitor
Thanks for all your answers. My question:
I am a heavy user of Latitude Flight Passes, including Europe Passes. Given that Latitude is more expensive than Premium Economy most if not all the time, why does a Latitude fare not automatically get a PE seat? I have yet to be in a position where this is an issue, but just wondering...
Best
Visitor
May 20, 2014, 9:16 pm
#579
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: YVR
Programs: AC*SE MM, Marriott Lifetime Titanium
Posts: 4,604
UA allows free SDC to their 50K+ tiers on their lowest booking class. With the Flex differential increasing, free SDC for higher status Altitude members on Flex fares would be a welcome improvement.
May 20, 2014, 9:19 pm
#580
formerly with Air Canada
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: YYZ YUL
Posts: 423
Hello Ben and Ben,
Thanks for all your answers. My question:
I am a heavy user of Latitude Flight Passes, including Europe Passes. Given that Latitude is more expensive than Premium Economy most if not all the time, why does a Latitude fare not automatically get a PE seat? I have yet to be in a position where this is an issue, but just wondering...
Best
Visitor
Thanks for all your answers. My question:
I am a heavy user of Latitude Flight Passes, including Europe Passes. Given that Latitude is more expensive than Premium Economy most if not all the time, why does a Latitude fare not automatically get a PE seat? I have yet to be in a position where this is an issue, but just wondering...
Best
Visitor
May 20, 2014, 10:06 pm
#581
Join Date: May 2014
Programs: AC Elite 50K
Posts: 367
Something else I'd be curious to ask - because its known that it is going to happen - but when should we expect to find out about new routes re rouge or mainline? / If when it expands to cover southern destinations from other Canadian cities. I'm not going to lie - unlike many around here I'd rather not connect - I love the flying experience - but Ill take a non stop (okay Im 5 9) over a connector any day. (And yes, I will pay more for it...)
May 20, 2014, 10:07 pm
#582
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: YYC
Programs: AC Basic, UA MP Gold, Marriott Gold Elite, SPG Gold, Amex Platinum
Posts: 3,008
Let's talk YYC service.
Thanks for your response on YYC-IAH regarding the CRA equip. IIRC the CRA equipment does a V routing YYZ-IAH-YYC and reverse. Therefore is it possible to put Sky regional E75 onto the run. This would comply with the teamsters restrictions regarding IAH. While I like the CRA, I think this aircraft is better fit for the under 2hr routes. Based in reviews from around the office (HQ in YYC and significant offices in IAH and AUS) moving to the Embraer would put AC on more competitive footing.
Also, is there any possibility of getting AC onto the UA hubs out of YYC? Specifically DEN, ORD, and SFO. I would even appreciate rouge service in SFO route. Looking at DEN there is a strong connection between the two cities with many YYC based companies with regional offices in the Denver area (Encana, Agrium, and Suncor come to mind but there are many others). For my little midsize energy services company, our USA headquarters is in Denver. Most people in my office prefer the CRA over the UAX CR7, while I am not advocating replacement of UA mainline service, augmenting the route with CRA would be an improvement and would drive YYC based traffic to AC express over UAX.
For YYC Hawaii flts, when can we expect to see rouge on the run. If I need to do a year end mileage run, premium rouge earn rate to UA is very good, but I would need to see an early (ie July) commitment as to putting rouge 763 onto Hawaii.
AC used to offer once per week service YYC-MBJ and I believe YYC-CUN was operated by the 763. Is there any possibility of getting these services with rouge? Premium rouge with a Sandals all inclusive package through ACV would be a compelling value proposition.
Finally what are the next steps for YYC-FRA? LH tried the run and tanked, but then heard from many people that LH c class was inferior to AC J class. We now have the 77W for the summer. Is there ever a possibility of getting a Double daily option onto the route? Problem i see with double daily is that AC might not have the right aircraft, is the 788 too many seats to go double daily? Double daily 763 is a natural growth from single daily 333 and alternative to 77W if your have the slots, but the 788 is just over 500 seats at double daily.
What is achievable from YYC perspective for enhanced AC services?
Thanks for your response on YYC-IAH regarding the CRA equip. IIRC the CRA equipment does a V routing YYZ-IAH-YYC and reverse. Therefore is it possible to put Sky regional E75 onto the run. This would comply with the teamsters restrictions regarding IAH. While I like the CRA, I think this aircraft is better fit for the under 2hr routes. Based in reviews from around the office (HQ in YYC and significant offices in IAH and AUS) moving to the Embraer would put AC on more competitive footing.
Also, is there any possibility of getting AC onto the UA hubs out of YYC? Specifically DEN, ORD, and SFO. I would even appreciate rouge service in SFO route. Looking at DEN there is a strong connection between the two cities with many YYC based companies with regional offices in the Denver area (Encana, Agrium, and Suncor come to mind but there are many others). For my little midsize energy services company, our USA headquarters is in Denver. Most people in my office prefer the CRA over the UAX CR7, while I am not advocating replacement of UA mainline service, augmenting the route with CRA would be an improvement and would drive YYC based traffic to AC express over UAX.
For YYC Hawaii flts, when can we expect to see rouge on the run. If I need to do a year end mileage run, premium rouge earn rate to UA is very good, but I would need to see an early (ie July) commitment as to putting rouge 763 onto Hawaii.
AC used to offer once per week service YYC-MBJ and I believe YYC-CUN was operated by the 763. Is there any possibility of getting these services with rouge? Premium rouge with a Sandals all inclusive package through ACV would be a compelling value proposition.
Finally what are the next steps for YYC-FRA? LH tried the run and tanked, but then heard from many people that LH c class was inferior to AC J class. We now have the 77W for the summer. Is there ever a possibility of getting a Double daily option onto the route? Problem i see with double daily is that AC might not have the right aircraft, is the 788 too many seats to go double daily? Double daily 763 is a natural growth from single daily 333 and alternative to 77W if your have the slots, but the 788 is just over 500 seats at double daily.
What is achievable from YYC perspective for enhanced AC services?
May 20, 2014, 10:12 pm
#583
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: YVR
Programs: Ice Cream Club, AC SE MM, Bonvoy Life Plat
Posts: 2,803
OK, I dug this up from a week ago on this thread, been "away" from lurking for months. But +1
I'll personally plow $150k revenue at AC and take a month away from my work doing MRs just to be on the top of that list again. Just make sure I don't have to drink red label!
I'll personally plow $150k revenue at AC and take a month away from my work doing MRs just to be on the top of that list again. Just make sure I don't have to drink red label!
May 20, 2014, 10:17 pm
#584
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 8,009
Could we trouble you for a similar analysis of the YVR-HKG market?
The "market leader" in the nonstop market uses 2X daily 275 seat 77W.
AC uses 1X daily 458 seat 77W.
The "market leader" in the nonstop market uses 2X daily 275 seat 77W.
AC uses 1X daily 458 seat 77W.
The 777HD is deployed on routes where our standard model is not optimal.
Take YUL-CDG as an example. We were the #3 or #4 player in the market. The market leader uses 9 abreast 16" seats in Y and a 7 abreast 34-35" "PY" product (no alliance/FF benefits/no connectivity/no airbridge at CDG. The #2 player is a full service network carrier that treats YUL like a Caribbean charter market. They switch equipment every season and send a 468 seat 77W to YUL every summer. This "premium" carrier continues to offer a 15 year-old angle flat product in J at 7 abreast. The #3 player send a 533 seat 744 to YUL (highest density 744 flying into Canada). The market is telling us loud and clear what is sustainable.
We're responding with our 777HD which features numerous passenger cabin/seating choices:
state of the art IFE system
fully flat J product identical to LX/OS/SN/some DL acft with 6 single seats (soon to be reserved for top tier/paid J) 1:18 lav ratio which is better than a lot of 4* carriers
best PY product offering of any NA carrier @ 38" pitch
Y+ seating options in Y
Y product that is comparable to BA 744 AF/KL 744 77W and lav ratio comparable to CX
Our 349 seat 77W on this route was not providing a ROIC high enough to justify any future investment/growth
With YULCDG being the 2nd largest international route to/from Canada we felt it necessary to design a product that would position us to win and grow in this very important market
Take YUL-CDG as an example. We were the #3 or #4 player in the market. The market leader uses 9 abreast 16" seats in Y and a 7 abreast 34-35" "PY" product (no alliance/FF benefits/no connectivity/no airbridge at CDG. The #2 player is a full service network carrier that treats YUL like a Caribbean charter market. They switch equipment every season and send a 468 seat 77W to YUL every summer. This "premium" carrier continues to offer a 15 year-old angle flat product in J at 7 abreast. The #3 player send a 533 seat 744 to YUL (highest density 744 flying into Canada). The market is telling us loud and clear what is sustainable.
We're responding with our 777HD which features numerous passenger cabin/seating choices:
state of the art IFE system
fully flat J product identical to LX/OS/SN/some DL acft with 6 single seats (soon to be reserved for top tier/paid J) 1:18 lav ratio which is better than a lot of 4* carriers
best PY product offering of any NA carrier @ 38" pitch
Y+ seating options in Y
Y product that is comparable to BA 744 AF/KL 744 77W and lav ratio comparable to CX
Our 349 seat 77W on this route was not providing a ROIC high enough to justify any future investment/growth
With YULCDG being the 2nd largest international route to/from Canada we felt it necessary to design a product that would position us to win and grow in this very important market
May 20, 2014, 10:28 pm
#585
Join Date: Mar 2014
Programs: AC SE100k, Marriott Titanium, UA Silver
Posts: 2,648
Okay, Bens...my turn for a Q.
Having been demoted from a full fledged Elite a few years ago to a mere 35% Elite today for more or less the same amount of traveling, the message received and understood by many of us is that in AC's estimation we were overvalued and needed to be reset. The question is, are we done now, or is the intent to offload us completely?
Supplemental question: I'm pretty much done as an AC loyalist. I have no idea how many other demoted Es are in the same situation. Does it matter to AC? Can I expect any kind of olive branch to get me back?
Thanks.
Having been demoted from a full fledged Elite a few years ago to a mere 35% Elite today for more or less the same amount of traveling, the message received and understood by many of us is that in AC's estimation we were overvalued and needed to be reset. The question is, are we done now, or is the intent to offload us completely?
Supplemental question: I'm pretty much done as an AC loyalist. I have no idea how many other demoted Es are in the same situation. Does it matter to AC? Can I expect any kind of olive branch to get me back?
Thanks.
Many times along the way, I thought that 35k was too low for full elite status, and I really didn't need to do very much flying to get it. I do feel that 50k for full elite makes more sense. Look at what you get (or don't get) with UA's premier levels.
I personally think they should remove the 35k level altogether. 25-50-75-100 makes a lot more sense.