KVS, I think at this point I'd really like to see an Availability/EF method -- allow me to sign up for (a legitimate account with) ExpertFlyer but continue using KVS. For those of use that are not so happy with the GTC scenario, this would give us another option, and one that we would be allowed to legitimately use.

Could you make this happen?

Well, regardless of whether KVS is willing to do it or not, looks like EF wouldn't allow me to do it anyway. They are clearly watching this thread, and promptly sent me a PM:
Doesn't look like they want me as a paying ExpertFlyer customer, either.

If it's legitimate, why all the secrecy? Even KVS hasn't made one peep about the legality of this or such after it was brought up in this thread, and they've responded after that to other points. Makes me think KVS suspects this method is not at all on the up-and-up.

I'm now wondering if flightstats.com took down their availability service simply because KVS was using it for free to gather their information, and in turn charge customers for the KVS interface. Nothing wrong in my mind if they did that, unless flightstats.com asked them to stop and they refused. Anyways, I have no idea if there was any sort of an arrangement or not between KVS and flightstats.com so don't want to make any assumptions here, but with the current secrecy, it does make one wonder.


Yes indeed. Just one more bit that adds to making KVS's action look very suspicious. I'm not a KVS customer, nor plan to be, nor have anything against them making money off of designing software to gather free information. But it looks to me like their credibility is taking a huge hit here by their actions and secrecy.

Based on ExpertFlyer's response you posted, there's nothing there that would stop me from being a customer of theirs, if that's the only way for me to get the availability information. And I don't know if KVS's policy was any different. If a KVS subscriber wrote some software and allowed a lot of people to use it for free which just ferried requests to KVS and returned the results, I imagine KVS would likely revoke their account, even though it seems that's really all KVS does to begin with, gathering information for free from other sources. Guess I'll need to ask ExpertFlyer how they gather their information, if they're willing to share. Though ultimately how they come about their information, provided it's done legally, doesn't bother me. Nor does it bother me if I sign up for a service with the agreement that it's for a sole individual's use, as long as it's spelled out ahead of time.

Edit: I just went and had a look at the flightstats.com thread and found EF's response there:
So if I'm not mistaken, EF paid to get the information directly and legally, whereas KVS looks to have been getting their information i an indirect manner, and possibly for free. Well, for me my choice will be perfectly clear if I need to decide between which service to use.

Our immediate priority lies with providing assistance to our Members during this Engine transition period, not engaging in speculative discussions.

As always, we remain open to answering specific questions regarding the KVS Tool itself and its functions.

KVS,
After much screwing around I managed to sign up for an account on the Florida Atlantic website. Surely this isn't right - you're asking people to pay you a substantial amount of money for a subscription to your product and then directing them to sign up to a 3rd party with little to no direct information on how to - just a bunch of cryptic instructions.

As I say, I've managed to sign up to this Florida Atlantic website version of getthere. But there is no further instructions on how this interacts with the KVS tool itself? KVS Asks for a sitecode. What the hell is the sitecode??

This system really does smell bad. If your product can no longer do what it advertises then you need to be upfront about it and tell people whats going on so they can make educated decisions.

I think you owe us long term subscribers a real explanation.

Airbumps

Really? Then why not just post the information here in public? Numerous people have mentioned not getting the email. And why spending time from your busy transition period to email a customer and ask them to remove a link? Absolutely makes no sense. Sounds to me like just an excuse for trying to cover up some less than legitimate activity.

I didn't suggest a lot of people using EF for free. I suggested that I would like to pay for an EF subscription, and use KVS as my user interface. Just like email services allow me to choose my mail client. But EF clearly won't allow anyone to choose their own UI. If they did, I expect they would pick up a lot of existing KVS subscribers.

Not thrilled by either of the available options at the moment.

In case any non-KVS customers are wondering, just by piecing together what's been posted here, if one does a google search for:

fau "getthere"
The first link returned is as follows:

http://www.fau.edu/controller/travel...ence_Guide.pdf

In there you will see the university's instructions for how to sign up. Does not at all look like something designed for general use. KVS, unless you were given specific permission from FAU to use this, and give it out to your customers, this is not at all cool.

Perhaps it's time someone sends some emails to FAU, marathon travel, and Sabre, to see what the real deal is, because obviously KVS wants to keep it all a big secret.

Ok, sorry, I misunderstood what you wanted to do. I'd agree that if they allowed just a KVS or other third-party interface to their information, for a single user, it would be useful to some people.

And that was exactly what I posted upthread.
And ExpertFlyer immediately sent me a PM stating this is not allowed.

I MUCH prefer the KVS interface despite the fact that I prefer to have a legitimate (paid or not) data source. So I suggested to ExpertFlyer that they write a similar app as KVS and I would consider switching. Also, the internet speed in my area is not that great. KVS app lets me switch search parameters very quickly while EF would require an access to the internet every time I key in a parameter or retrieve saved parameters. With a slow connection, even 0.5 second every time I retrieve a parameter is a pain in the as.s to me. That's the main reason I prefer KVS. And that's why I don't like anything web-based.

There is nothing wrong IMO what KVS is doing, except KVS should market itself as a scraper instead of a data provider. Everything KVS offers can be done though other FREE websites. I pay for KVS only because of the convenience, not because of the data it provides.

The GTC thing is just another website that KVS can scrape from. KVS commits no fault by pointing to us how to be crooks ourselves (if using GTC credentials in an unauthorized way constitutes being a crook that is). We are the one being the crooks, not KVS. Whether we want to use its service or not is OUR choice. So if you think this is immoral, DON'T do it! Just stop using KVS. If you're like me, feeling no guilt of using GTC credentials, by all means continue to use KVS to scrape the info.

+1

We are paying KVS for a tool he has made (hence the name KVS Tool!), not for being a source of data.
He is pointing us to sources of data which are available for his tool.
And it is up to us if we use them or not.

I disagree. While it's called a tool, it's really not, or at least that's not how it's marketed. It's marketed as a service, and one which you must pay a subscription to use. Thus it's being marketed as a solution, and even though they're not supplying the data directly, it seems to me that it's implied that you will have access to the data they say with your subscription.

If it was just a tool, you'd expect them to sell it for a fixed cost, and then you're free to use it for your lifetime, or the lifetime that's it's useful, ie., data is available for it to use. And if it stops functioning as you expect, then you need to upgrade your tool, perhaps for some cost, or perhaps for free, depending on the software vendor's policies.

As to whether or not KVS is doing anything wrong by providing links to get access to an account which to me doesn't look like it was meant to be used by the public, I'll leave that for each individual to decide in their own mind, based on their individual sense of right/wrong. But if KVS felt there was nothing wrong with their actions, then why the need for secrecy and providing a google link? Why not just simply provide the account name/password directly and state clearly that it's up to the user to decide whether they want to use that information to make their own account? Would have been much simpler for the users. Without seeing their actual email, it sounds to me that the way they've done it, many users may not even realize that they're doing something of very questionable ethics/legality. Nor may they realize that if someone decides to revoke these newly created accounts, they will once again be without any data source and stuck with a tool which serves them no purpose, or at least not the full functionality which they thought they would get with it.

For those who purchased subscriptions and realized it's just a tool without any guarantee of data, fine, and I hope your happy. But I imagine they likely have a lot of customers who felt their subscription was a service, and now suddenly that service has been severely restricted, unless you want to register accounts/engage in activity that you may not be authorized to.

Claiming that it must be a service because it is sold as a subscription and not with one-off payment is spurious.

Plenty of software products are sold with both models... for example MS Word and Excel can be bought using either a single payment or a subscription. Using the subscription model does not alter the product which is exactly the same product you get if you buy a perpetual license. (Although buying the subscription does entitle you to ongoing upgrades... it is also possible to get those with a perpetual license + an annual support agreement.)

I use KVS to post availability on flights mostly to Florida which I have been doing for a few years, I did get a request from KVS a while ago to include "KVS Availability Tool" in all my posts which I gladly done so I'm a little upset as I've supported the tool for a few years I have asked for details of how to keep using it but I'm confused about the replies