Coronavirus in Sweden
Aug 30, 2020, 2:22 am
#1006
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Interesting to read that after the latest adjustments, residents of Norway are theoretically free to travel to the following nine countries without having any problems with entry in either the visited country nor back home in Norway nor with the travel insurance: Estonia, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, San Marino, Slovakia, Slovenia, Greenland, and some parts of Denmark. I say theoretically, because there are no direct flights between Norway and several of these countries, and a transit in a red zone means a quarantine back in Norway. In reality, the only flights that are available today from OSL to yellow countries are to three countries: Denmark, Lithuania, and Estonia.
Swedish residents, on the other hand, can travel freely to the following 22 countries without having any problems with entry either in the visited country nor back home in Sweden nor with the travel insurance: Andorra, Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Czechia, Denmark, France, Germany, Iceland, Italy, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Monaco, the Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, San Marino, Spain, Switzerland, and the Vatican.
If a Swedish resident is willing to purchase a separate travel insurance, he can also travel quite freely to a few countries outside of Europe, like Mexico, Brazil, Dubai, Kenya, Tanzania, and a few other countries.
Swedish residents, on the other hand, can travel freely to the following 22 countries without having any problems with entry either in the visited country nor back home in Sweden nor with the travel insurance: Andorra, Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Czechia, Denmark, France, Germany, Iceland, Italy, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Monaco, the Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, San Marino, Spain, Switzerland, and the Vatican.
If a Swedish resident is willing to purchase a separate travel insurance, he can also travel quite freely to a few countries outside of Europe, like Mexico, Brazil, Dubai, Kenya, Tanzania, and a few other countries.
Aug 30, 2020, 8:30 am
#1007
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Don't know how much extra business Systembolaget get from people who lost access to DK for alcohol. I saw that Systembolaget got extra business in Southern Sweden - I saw they deliver alcohol to Norway?
I didn't even know our local Systembolaget was shut down forever until I was thinking about getting some cardboard boxes for packing, I guess people either shop in Malmo or DK for alcohol.
I didn't even know our local Systembolaget was shut down forever until I was thinking about getting some cardboard boxes for packing, I guess people either shop in Malmo or DK for alcohol.
For all of the last ten years, in-person Norwegian border shoppers in Sweden has been such a tiny fraction of Swedish retail sales that the drop barely registers nationwide if card transaction activity mean anything. And during this time, in-person Danish border shoppers in Sweden account for a much greater volume of sales than Norwegian border shopping in Sweden. Swedish retailers in the aggregate live off local/captive Swedish buyers, as that is where the big consumer bucks are.
Aug 30, 2020, 10:39 am
#1008
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Interesting to read that after the latest adjustments, residents of Norway are theoretically free to travel to the following nine countries without having any problems with entry in either the visited country nor back home in Norway nor with the travel insurance: Estonia, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, San Marino, Slovakia, Slovenia, Greenland, and some parts of Denmark.
Also, I ran into an American yesterday whose husband is Norwegian, and she said they can't travel to Norway together because, unlike Denmark, he's a non-resident. I take it it's really so.
Aug 30, 2020, 10:52 am
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Regional, like southern Sweden? I'd be interested in seeing the map if it's handy to you.
Also, I ran into an American yesterday whose husband is Norwegian, and she said they can't travel to Norway together because, unlike Denmark, he's a non-resident. I take it it's really so.
Also, I ran into an American yesterday whose husband is Norwegian, and she said they can't travel to Norway together because, unlike Denmark, he's a non-resident. I take it it's really so.
If the Norwegian husband were to be/become resident in Norway, then there is this for some:
Originally Posted by UDI.NO
From 15 July, you can also visit close relatives and girlfriend/boyfriend if you are visa-free or have a valid visa issued by a Norwegian embassy, even if it is issued before 15 March 2020.
When you travel to Norway you must bring your passport. In addition, you should document that you belong to one of the exception groups that now can travel to Norway, when traveling in. There are no set requirements to what exact documents this is for the different groups.
When you travel to Norway you must bring your passport. In addition, you should document that you belong to one of the exception groups that now can travel to Norway, when traveling in. There are no set requirements to what exact documents this is for the different groups.
Aug 30, 2020, 3:41 pm
#1010
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Those limitations are not based on countries banning Norwegians and Swedes, but based on the Norwegian and Swedish authorities' assessments of the out break in those countries. I do think that the Norwegian government tend to be a bit on the over cautious side when it comes to countries requiring quarantine. Though I have not followed the status in Mexico closely, I would say that is the Swedish government does not require quarantine for people returning from Mexico, they are probably on the overly lax side.
Sweden also recommends against traveling to e.g. Mexico (and all non-European countries), so a Swedish travel insurance is not valid for a trip to Mexico. But if a Swede is willing to buy a separate insurance, or travel without insurance, it's fully possible for him to visit Mexico and return to Sweden with no quarantine.
For all of the last ten years, in-person Norwegian border shoppers in Sweden has been such a tiny fraction of Swedish retail sales that the drop barely registers nationwide if card transaction activity mean anything. And during this time, in-person Danish border shoppers in Sweden account for a much greater volume of sales than Norwegian border shopping in Sweden. Swedish retailers in the aggregate live off local/captive Swedish buyers, as that is where the big consumer bucks are.
Do you have any concrete figures for Danes doing border shopping in Sweden, and Swedes shopping in Denmark? Do Swedes ever shop in Denmark at all, or is it too expensive these days?
Aug 31, 2020, 5:39 am
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Sweden doesn't have quarantine for anyone but they do ban non-EU visitors without a reason to come to Sweden.
I saw some Americans that used to live in Sweden asking around asking how they can sneak in and visit Sweden.
Regarding border shopping in DK - I don't have the concrete figures. Have you been to the Netto in Kastrup by CPH? That shop is basically a Systembolaget like before Covid-19. They actually cut down their selection of goods just to get enough space for alcohol.
Helsingor - 20 minutes by boats to Helsingborg, the pedestrian street is again a street full of Systembolaget (I have been there recently but when I went it really looked like that and it's full of drunk Swedes). Also there are a lot of professional beer runners (mostly immigrants) basically moving beer multiple times a day to move beer from DK to SE.
Danes don't seem to boatload stuff back from SE to DK (I guess they have Germany to boatload stuff from), maybe snus.
I saw some Americans that used to live in Sweden asking around asking how they can sneak in and visit Sweden.
Regarding border shopping in DK - I don't have the concrete figures. Have you been to the Netto in Kastrup by CPH? That shop is basically a Systembolaget like before Covid-19. They actually cut down their selection of goods just to get enough space for alcohol.
Helsingor - 20 minutes by boats to Helsingborg, the pedestrian street is again a street full of Systembolaget (I have been there recently but when I went it really looked like that and it's full of drunk Swedes). Also there are a lot of professional beer runners (mostly immigrants) basically moving beer multiple times a day to move beer from DK to SE.
Danes don't seem to boatload stuff back from SE to DK (I guess they have Germany to boatload stuff from), maybe snus.
Aug 31, 2020, 5:40 am
#1012
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The hit to Swedish retailers' card transaction value was overwhelmingly from Swedish customers shopping less/differently.
Norwegians shopping in Sweden are like the hair on the head of Swedish King: receding at the borders with the remaining hair still appreciated by those who care and are close to the receding line but far from useful for even a basic comb-over given the size and shape of the head/retail sector overall.
A bunch of Norwegian card transactions at the stores and restaurants in Stockholm and Skane done in April-June were done using Norwegian bank cards. Do we classify that post-March 23rd shopping as Norwegian "border shopping" negatively hitting Sweden, as positively hitting Sweden, or do we call it what it often is: transactions by Swedes and others who have been issued bank cards in Norway and choose when to shop in Sweden based on when they are in Sweden and the NOK-SEK exchange rate works out well enough in their mind?
Danish bank cards do very routinely get used to go shopping in parts of Sweden bordering Denmark in ways. And Swedish bank cards do get used routinely for purchases in Copenhagen.
Swedes do at times go shopping in Denmark and to go out to eat and drink. It's cheaper now for Swedes to go shopping in Denmark than it was at the end of Q1. But Sweden is overall cheaper by a bit than Denmark when it comes to essential goods purchases. Just like Sweden is overall cheaper than Norway when it comes to essential goods purchases.
Norwegians shopping in Sweden are like the hair on the head of Swedish King: receding at the borders with the remaining hair still appreciated by those who care and are close to the receding line but far from useful for even a basic comb-over given the size and shape of the head/retail sector overall.
A bunch of Norwegian card transactions at the stores and restaurants in Stockholm and Skane done in April-June were done using Norwegian bank cards. Do we classify that post-March 23rd shopping as Norwegian "border shopping" negatively hitting Sweden, as positively hitting Sweden, or do we call it what it often is: transactions by Swedes and others who have been issued bank cards in Norway and choose when to shop in Sweden based on when they are in Sweden and the NOK-SEK exchange rate works out well enough in their mind?
Danish bank cards do very routinely get used to go shopping in parts of Sweden bordering Denmark in ways. And Swedish bank cards do get used routinely for purchases in Copenhagen.
Swedes do at times go shopping in Denmark and to go out to eat and drink. It's cheaper now for Swedes to go shopping in Denmark than it was at the end of Q1. But Sweden is overall cheaper by a bit than Denmark when it comes to essential goods purchases. Just like Sweden is overall cheaper than Norway when it comes to essential goods purchases.
Aug 31, 2020, 6:03 am
#1013
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I don't think that you can use the bank cards as the definite mark of the border shopping. My experience is that Norwegians use cash much more than Swedes. Also, as you said, lots of Swedes have been working in Norway and have a Norwegian card which they use for shopping all over Sweden.
Although I don't know the Malmo-Copenhagen region very well, I would guess that the shopping at the Norwegian border is far more significant and more one-way. Many Norwegian families and friends cross the border by car and fill up with whatever they need for the coming two weeks. It's much more expensive to take a car from Denmark to Sweden, so my guess is that the Danish shoppers in Sweden don't do the same type of shopping as Norwegians do. Most border crossings between Norway and Sweden are totally free to cross. Svinesund is the only crossing where you have to pay, and that's a whopping NOK 20.
Although I don't know the Malmo-Copenhagen region very well, I would guess that the shopping at the Norwegian border is far more significant and more one-way. Many Norwegian families and friends cross the border by car and fill up with whatever they need for the coming two weeks. It's much more expensive to take a car from Denmark to Sweden, so my guess is that the Danish shoppers in Sweden don't do the same type of shopping as Norwegians do. Most border crossings between Norway and Sweden are totally free to cross. Svinesund is the only crossing where you have to pay, and that's a whopping NOK 20.
Aug 31, 2020, 7:11 am
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Cash use has been declining big time in the big 3 Scandinavian countries -- Norway included in this trend, although not yet as bad as Sweden in that regard.
The cost of using cash as forex to get foreign cash has been getting relatively worse over time in this region; meanwhile the cost of just using the bank card outside the bank-issuer's country has gotten relatively cheaper and better to use than cash (or cash for forex). And transaction value using cards at Swedish physical retailers along the border areas are far more relevant than cash transactions nowadays.
Taking a car from Denmark to Sweden isn't necessarily all that expensive even with a bridge toll that most often is very high. But for a chunk of people, the bridge toll and driving cost is cheaper than taking the train each way. If you have/borrow a heavily used RFID pass for the bridge crossing, an additional trip costs less than it does for a one-time Malmo-CPH train ticket for an adult. I know residents of Sweden who have had a habit of making sure to fill up the gas tank in Denmark so as to further reduce the costs of trips to Denmark and of their fuel bills overall and repeatedly borrowed such passes. Denmark's physical retailers lost most of that kind of Swedish customer business too during the 2nd quarter.
Many an evening again, I see Danes and Swedes coming off the train from Denmark who have Danish retailers' shopping bags in their hands, but it's not all that noticeable except for the clang sounds of cans and bottles. But when it comes to the Swedish mall closest to CPH, most of the Swedish retailers' shopping bags in the hands of passengers on the train and train platforms at the border train station are in the hands of those headed further into Sweden.
Foreign in-person shoppers in Sweden have been such a tiny drop in the bucket of overall retail transactions at Sweden's physical retailers for so long, that it's not even possible for Norwegian shoppers along the Swedish border to be a material explanation for the drop in Sweden's retail sales volume during the 2nd quarter. The material explanation for Sweden's retail sales volume drop is that people living in Sweden stopped spending as usual. It's noteworthy that more than 70% of Swedes said the pandemic situation had seriously changed their life; that is a far higher proportion of the population than was the case in all other surveyed countries except South Korea, a country that took a very different approach than Sweden.
The cost of using cash as forex to get foreign cash has been getting relatively worse over time in this region; meanwhile the cost of just using the bank card outside the bank-issuer's country has gotten relatively cheaper and better to use than cash (or cash for forex). And transaction value using cards at Swedish physical retailers along the border areas are far more relevant than cash transactions nowadays.
Taking a car from Denmark to Sweden isn't necessarily all that expensive even with a bridge toll that most often is very high. But for a chunk of people, the bridge toll and driving cost is cheaper than taking the train each way. If you have/borrow a heavily used RFID pass for the bridge crossing, an additional trip costs less than it does for a one-time Malmo-CPH train ticket for an adult. I know residents of Sweden who have had a habit of making sure to fill up the gas tank in Denmark so as to further reduce the costs of trips to Denmark and of their fuel bills overall and repeatedly borrowed such passes. Denmark's physical retailers lost most of that kind of Swedish customer business too during the 2nd quarter.
Many an evening again, I see Danes and Swedes coming off the train from Denmark who have Danish retailers' shopping bags in their hands, but it's not all that noticeable except for the clang sounds of cans and bottles. But when it comes to the Swedish mall closest to CPH, most of the Swedish retailers' shopping bags in the hands of passengers on the train and train platforms at the border train station are in the hands of those headed further into Sweden.
Foreign in-person shoppers in Sweden have been such a tiny drop in the bucket of overall retail transactions at Sweden's physical retailers for so long, that it's not even possible for Norwegian shoppers along the Swedish border to be a material explanation for the drop in Sweden's retail sales volume during the 2nd quarter. The material explanation for Sweden's retail sales volume drop is that people living in Sweden stopped spending as usual. It's noteworthy that more than 70% of Swedes said the pandemic situation had seriously changed their life; that is a far higher proportion of the population than was the case in all other surveyed countries except South Korea, a country that took a very different approach than Sweden.
Last edited by GUWonder; Aug 31, 2020 at 8:03 am
Aug 31, 2020, 10:41 am
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This has some data about what happened to spending in Denmark and Sweden based on Danske Bank data used to produce the following about these two Scandinavian countries:
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2005.04630.pdf
Sweden's lack of restrictions relative to Denmark sort of factored in that people would comply with recommendations anyway; but that was really not about complying with recommendations ..... rather it was about people having their own sense for the health risks involved and cutting back anyway.
Would Danish-style restrictions in Sweden have saved Sweden economic damage or cost it more economic damage in the 2nd quarter? I think it would have been close to a wash economically. Would Danish-style restrictions in Sweden have saved Swedish lives/health in the 2nd quarter or cost Sweden more with lives/health in the 2nd quarter? I'm with Danish-style restrictions in Sweden being better for saving lives/health in Sweden in the 2nd quarter than the approach Sweden took.
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2005.04630.pdf
Our findings have important implications for the appropriate policy response to a pandemic by suggesting that most of the reduction in economic activity is caused by the pandemic itself and occurs regardless of whether governments shut down sectors with high social proximity or not.5 Governments should weigh the benefits of the public health interventions in terms of reduced mortality and serious illness (Juranek and Zoutman, 2020) against the small differential cost in terms of economic activity.
....
Some assume that the COVID-19 pandemic is essentially a shock to the supply side with possible spill-overs to the demand side (Guerrieri et al., 2020), while others emphasize that the pandemic affects demand directly because it introduces a health cost of consumption(Eichenbaum et al, 2020). Our findings suggest that the direct demand shock is important: spending drops massively even when supply is unconstrained and the drop correlates strongly with health risk.6 Finally, our analysis contributes to an emerging literature studying the effects of the social distancing laws imposed by most governments in the world in response to the COVID-19 pandemic. Most of the literature focuses on the effectiveness of these policies in limiting personal mobility (Brzezinski et al., 2020; Sears, 2020) and containing the virus (Kraemer et al., 2020). While several papers use quantitative models to evaluate social distancing policies (e.g. Boden-stein et al., 2020; Acemoglu et al., 2020), we are not aware of other causal evidence on the effect on spending or other dimensions of economic activity.
....
Some assume that the COVID-19 pandemic is essentially a shock to the supply side with possible spill-overs to the demand side (Guerrieri et al., 2020), while others emphasize that the pandemic affects demand directly because it introduces a health cost of consumption(Eichenbaum et al, 2020). Our findings suggest that the direct demand shock is important: spending drops massively even when supply is unconstrained and the drop correlates strongly with health risk.6 Finally, our analysis contributes to an emerging literature studying the effects of the social distancing laws imposed by most governments in the world in response to the COVID-19 pandemic. Most of the literature focuses on the effectiveness of these policies in limiting personal mobility (Brzezinski et al., 2020; Sears, 2020) and containing the virus (Kraemer et al., 2020). While several papers use quantitative models to evaluate social distancing policies (e.g. Boden-stein et al., 2020; Acemoglu et al., 2020), we are not aware of other causal evidence on the effect on spending or other dimensions of economic activity.
Would Danish-style restrictions in Sweden have saved Sweden economic damage or cost it more economic damage in the 2nd quarter? I think it would have been close to a wash economically. Would Danish-style restrictions in Sweden have saved Swedish lives/health in the 2nd quarter or cost Sweden more with lives/health in the 2nd quarter? I'm with Danish-style restrictions in Sweden being better for saving lives/health in Sweden in the 2nd quarter than the approach Sweden took.
Aug 31, 2020, 2:57 pm
#1016
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Taking a car from Denmark to Sweden isn't necessarily all that expensive even with a bridge toll that most often is very high. But for a chunk of people, the bridge toll and driving cost is cheaper than taking the train each way. If you have/borrow a heavily used RFID pass for the bridge crossing, an additional trip costs less than it does for a one-time Malmo-CPH train ticket for an adult. I know residents of Sweden who have had a habit of making sure to fill up the gas tank in Denmark so as to further reduce the costs of trips to Denmark and of their fuel bills overall and repeatedly borrowed such passes. Denmark's physical retailers lost most of that kind of Swedish customer business too during the 2nd quarter.
Taking a car from Denmark to Sweden isn't necessarily all that expensive even with a bridge toll that most often is very high. But for a chunk of people, the bridge toll and driving cost is cheaper than taking the train each way. If you have/borrow a heavily used RFID pass for the bridge crossing, an additional trip costs less than it does for a one-time Malmo-CPH train ticket for an adult. I know residents of Sweden who have had a habit of making sure to fill up the gas tank in Denmark so as to further reduce the costs of trips to Denmark and of their fuel bills overall and repeatedly borrowed such passes. Denmark's physical retailers lost most of that kind of Swedish customer business too during the 2nd quarter.
Aug 31, 2020, 4:03 pm
#1017
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Aug 31, 2020, 4:49 pm
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With the commuter Bridge Pass for a car, the toll for an additional given crossing of a car on the pass can be as low as the equivalent of around c. $6. That's the sweet spot. I can't use the Oresundstag train to cross the bridge in any given direction for less than nearly $13.50 now. At times I could get a lower price by taking one of the few SJ trains for bridge crossings, but I still almost never did that for simple Malmo-Copenhagen/Copenhagen-Malmo trips.
There is a Skanetrafiken shared ticket discount of 25% for using the train to travel on a shared ticket, and that discount also applies to crossing the bridge. But for a typical family of 2 adults + 2 children, that DSB/Skanetrafiken train trip could be almost c. $33 each way nowadays. A few months before this thread was created, that same bridge-crossing train trip for a typical family of 2 adults + 2 children would have been nearly 30% cheaper than it has become for many such families.
Daily commuter volumes in recent years have been something akin to 8-15 times more Swedes going to Denmark in the morning than Danes going to Sweden in the morning. It would be fascinating to find out what happened to that gap during the 2nd quarter.
Train traffic from Malmo to Copenhagen during the weekend evenings during the 2nd quarter dropped big time as "going out" "to party" in Copenhagen became "difficult" in ways for Swedes; instead they spent the weekend entertainment money closer to home on the weekends.
And yet with all that Swedish money no longer being spent abroad because of Danish restrictions and instead available for spending closer to home, the Swedish economy didn't outperform its neighbors.
Last edited by GUWonder; Aug 31, 2020 at 5:03 pm
Sep 1, 2020, 1:59 am
#1019
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Taking a car from Denmark to Sweden isn't necessarily all that expensive even with a bridge toll that most often is very high. But for a chunk of people, the bridge toll and driving cost is cheaper than taking the train each way. If you have/borrow a heavily used RFID pass for the bridge crossing, an additional trip costs less than it does for a one-time Malmo-CPH train ticket for an adult. I know residents of Sweden who have had a habit of making sure to fill up the gas tank in Denmark so as to further reduce the costs of trips to Denmark and of their fuel bills overall and repeatedly borrowed such passes. Denmark's physical retailers lost most of that kind of Swedish customer business too during the 2nd quarter.
could you please explain more about this RFID pass? Train ticket to Malmö-CPH one way is around 120 SEK, if I am not mistaken. Thank you.
Is there also a cheaper way to cross the Bridge? There is no more JoJo Card discount. Sorry, have not seen the last contribution.
If one does not have a car, which I don't, crossing the bridge becomes expensive. Not very CO2 friendly for a country that has Greta Thunberg lecturing. Without the JoJo card reduction, prices increased again. :-(
There are groups where people rent out their train tickets, but nobody talks about prices openly etc and it seems to be hard to find a free ticket. I feel stuck with this bridge.
Sep 1, 2020, 2:50 am
#1020
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Hi GuWonder,
could you please explain more about this RFID pass? Train ticket to Malmö-CPH one way is around 120 SEK, if I am not mistaken. Thank you.
Is there also a cheaper way to cross the Bridge? There is no more JoJo Card discount. Sorry, have not seen the last contribution.
If one does not have a car, which I don't, crossing the bridge becomes expensive. Not very CO2 friendly for a country that has Greta Thunberg lecturing. Without the JoJo card reduction, prices increased again. :-(
There are groups where people rent out their train tickets, but nobody talks about prices openly etc and it seems to be hard to find a free ticket. I feel stuck with this bridge.
could you please explain more about this RFID pass? Train ticket to Malmö-CPH one way is around 120 SEK, if I am not mistaken. Thank you.
Is there also a cheaper way to cross the Bridge? There is no more JoJo Card discount. Sorry, have not seen the last contribution.
If one does not have a car, which I don't, crossing the bridge becomes expensive. Not very CO2 friendly for a country that has Greta Thunberg lecturing. Without the JoJo card reduction, prices increased again. :-(
There are groups where people rent out their train tickets, but nobody talks about prices openly etc and it seems to be hard to find a free ticket. I feel stuck with this bridge.
Borrowing Skanetrafiken app's monthly passes for the bridge crossing (at least by non-students) is more difficult to come across than it is for other monthly passes loaded on the Skanetrafiken app. nacho may know more about that too. I recall something about those monthly passes also not all being useful for use unless sticking to the Oresundstag stations/train while within Denmark.
I don't recall what I paid for a train ticket when I crossed within the first year of the bridge being open. I do know that within just the past several years, the average price for my train crossing ticket has increased from around 89 SEK to 120 SEK. The inflation sort of reminds me of Swedish housing price increases in the big 3 Swedish cities during the past ten years.
Sounds like you are probably already pretty familiar with much of what is listed in the following:
https://www.swedishnomad.com/oresund-bridge/
Last edited by GUWonder; Sep 1, 2020 at 3:06 am