Mar 11, 2020, 10:13 am
Last edit by: Ocn Vw 1K
In order to reduce noise in the Coronavirus / Covid-19 : general fact-based reporting thread, and to create a central place to invite any member to ask a basic question about the impact of COVID-19 on travel, your moderators have decided to open this separate "lounge" thread for related discussion that isn't strictly fact-based reporting.
Any member who can provide a constructive, helpful answer to a question; or post constructively in reply to a member's point-of-view, is welcome to post.
All FT rules apply, including avoiding personalized, snarky, political, other off-topic, commercial, and repeatedly disruptive content.
Discussion of general economic impacts of Covid-19 belongs in the OMNI forum, not here.
Discussion and critique of political/government actions to aid the economy or which is far more political than related to COVID-19 is for the OMNI/PR forum, not here.
This is a protocol for posting adopted by the forum Moderator team:Please follow this protocol, based on FlyerTalk Rules and long-standing FlyerTalk best practices. Doing so will help keep the thread open, and allow our moderator team to aid members, rather than having to resort to discipline.
•Constructive, respectful posts, views, opinions, questions, and replies, related to the topic are welcome. Avoid commenting on members personally, or posting off-topic or political messages.
•While respectful disagreement of a posted view is allowed, don’t call-out posters to prove their points. FlyerTalk has never required discussion standards at the level of a Ph.D. dissertation defense, or a trial court witness cross-examination.
•After a reasonable exchange of views on a point, please yield the floor so that others may bring up different topics, questions or points.
•Especially important in this time of pandemic, when normal life and travel have been upended: please take regular breaks from the thread.
Please stay healthy,
your FT Coronavirus and Travel Moderator Team.
Any member who can provide a constructive, helpful answer to a question; or post constructively in reply to a member's point-of-view, is welcome to post.
All FT rules apply, including avoiding personalized, snarky, political, other off-topic, commercial, and repeatedly disruptive content.
Discussion of general economic impacts of Covid-19 belongs in the OMNI forum, not here.
Discussion and critique of political/government actions to aid the economy or which is far more political than related to COVID-19 is for the OMNI/PR forum, not here.
This is a protocol for posting adopted by the forum Moderator team:Please follow this protocol, based on FlyerTalk Rules and long-standing FlyerTalk best practices. Doing so will help keep the thread open, and allow our moderator team to aid members, rather than having to resort to discipline.
•Constructive, respectful posts, views, opinions, questions, and replies, related to the topic are welcome. Avoid commenting on members personally, or posting off-topic or political messages.
•While respectful disagreement of a posted view is allowed, don’t call-out posters to prove their points. FlyerTalk has never required discussion standards at the level of a Ph.D. dissertation defense, or a trial court witness cross-examination.
•After a reasonable exchange of views on a point, please yield the floor so that others may bring up different topics, questions or points.
•Especially important in this time of pandemic, when normal life and travel have been upended: please take regular breaks from the thread.
Please stay healthy,
your FT Coronavirus and Travel Moderator Team.
COVID-19: Lounge thread for thoughts, concerns and questions
Mar 23, 2020, 10:51 am
#1426
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Pacific Northwest
Programs: UA Gold 1MM, AS 75k, AA Plat, Bonvoyed Gold, Honors Dia, Hyatt Explorer, IHG Plat, ...
Posts: 16,857
We have a national policy of 15 days social distancing: https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-conten...5x11_315PM.pdf
It is not publicized as well as it should and should be worded more strongly. We are 7 days out of 15 today.
It is not publicized as well as it should and should be worded more strongly. We are 7 days out of 15 today.
- when did the 15 days start? So kids can go back to school after that? (answer: nope)
- If your kids are sick, don’t send them to school? What school? Schools have been closed here for 11 days and will be closed at least until end of April.
- avoid eating at restaurants? All closed for a week or so already
Mar 23, 2020, 10:58 am
#1427
Suspended
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Bay Area
Programs: DL SM, UA MP.
Posts: 12,729
Italy did that too. Conte downplayed it through mid February at least.
Then you had some politician being photographed having an apertivo surrounded by others, shrugging off the virus.
Then he came down with it.
Mar 23, 2020, 11:03 am
#1428
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: PHX
Programs: Delta DM, Marriott Lifetime Titanium, HHonrs Diamond
Posts: 1,336
Yes. Today is Day 7 out of 15.
Society and state/local officials are taking broader steps than the Federal Government is.
That is why I remain encouraged we will see some curve flattening in areas where testing is being performed.
This is really in the hands of the governors and local officials now to speak to their populations.
Gov. Cuomo's daily updates are a must watch since he presents tons of facts.
I think I heard him say that we are approaching the point where the fear is worse than the virus itself. Can't find the exact wording but from a social and economic standpoint, he is right.
Don't get this virus in the next 3 weeks. Protect yourself and you will protect others. And if you are high-risk, then consider near-isolation longer as a personal choice.
Society and state/local officials are taking broader steps than the Federal Government is.
That is why I remain encouraged we will see some curve flattening in areas where testing is being performed.
This is really in the hands of the governors and local officials now to speak to their populations.
Gov. Cuomo's daily updates are a must watch since he presents tons of facts.
I think I heard him say that we are approaching the point where the fear is worse than the virus itself. Can't find the exact wording but from a social and economic standpoint, he is right.
Don't get this virus in the next 3 weeks. Protect yourself and you will protect others. And if you are high-risk, then consider near-isolation longer as a personal choice.
Mar 23, 2020, 11:04 am
#1429
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Pacific Northwest
Programs: UA Gold 1MM, AS 75k, AA Plat, Bonvoyed Gold, Honors Dia, Hyatt Explorer, IHG Plat, ...
Posts: 16,857
In better news, apparently USNS Mercy is going to depart San Diego today for the port of LA.
Mar 23, 2020, 11:06 am
#1430
Join Date: May 2010
Location: AVP & PEK
Programs: UA 1K 1.9MM
Posts: 6,362
This just pulled from fda.gov under the heading "N95 Respirators and Surgical Masks (Face Masks)" today March 23, 2020 (bolding mine):
"N95 Respirators Not for Use by the Public
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) does not recommend that the general public wear N95 respirators to protect themselves from respiratory diseases, including coronavirus (COVID-19). The best way to prevent illness is to avoid being exposed to this virus. However, as a reminder, CDC always recommends everyday preventive actions, such as hand washing, to help prevent the spread of respiratory diseases.
For the general American public, there is no added health benefit to wear a respiratory protective device (such as an N95 respirator), and the immediate health risk from COVID-19 is considered low."
All of that is pretty sad and quite appalling!
Mar 23, 2020, 11:34 am
#1431
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 6,752
1. 30 days.
2. 45 days.
4. 3 months.
Some conjectures. Implementation of temperature testing en masse, such as in Asia. When testing capabilities are sufficient, test liberally and surgically isolate individuals and pockets with infection rates--positive test carries the rule of law where coercion may be used. Quarantine all those in the high risk demographics. Mass produce some masks, if only to reduce the potential asymptomatic/unwitting spreading. At the risk of pulling a Bloomberg farm thing, how hard is it to make masks? Can't anyone with a sewing machine stitch one up?
Mostly, in my view, Americans will find this cowering stuff tiresome pretty soon. I suspect we're ok with 30 days, but, not much more. Life goes on, regardless. It's not necessary to eliminate this thing, just do our best to avoid the healthcare bottleneck. We ought to be able to practice vigorous mitigation without placing our lives on pause by taking a page out of the SE Asia playbook.
Mar 23, 2020, 11:41 am
#1432
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2004
Location: DFW/DAL
Programs: AA Lifetime PLT, AS MVPG, HH Diamond, NCL Platinum Plus, MSC Diamond
Posts: 21,422
In my view, I don't think this is an easy decision. It's easy for us throwing out ideas where consequences to real people are non-existent. If I were making this decision, I'd need more than "this could happen, but on one knows" before taking some of the more extreme measures. Additionally, since the past 10 years of pathogens aren't relevant, can we have a case on why the 1918 should apply here? If we have a high degree of confidence this will be similar to 1918, let's by all means use all our powers to completely shut down the country until it's stamped out. Even then, do we allow foreign travel to introduce this again or another one?
Sure, let's start for WA and CA, in particular that cruise ship on my home shores. Can Gov Newsom send them back? To another State? Not allow anyone to leave until there's 14 day days of infection free passengers? I'm all for surgically targeting high risk areas and demographics.
Sure, let's start for WA and CA, in particular that cruise ship on my home shores. Can Gov Newsom send them back? To another State? Not allow anyone to leave until there's 14 day days of infection free passengers? I'm all for surgically targeting high risk areas and demographics.
Mar 23, 2020, 11:46 am
#1433
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 6,752
States which cater to cruise travel should be the ones bear the brunt of issues caused by cruise travel, including quarantine issues relating to ships that either originate or end in the ports in these states. Why should the states benefitting from cruise travel not be responsible for this?
Mar 23, 2020, 11:48 am
#1434
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: PHX
Programs: Delta DM, Marriott Lifetime Titanium, HHonrs Diamond
Posts: 1,336
Here is another ... https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2001468
We cannot have an account unless we have ideal contact tracing to prove that asymptomatic transmission did occur rather than other community spread, and that means testing a bunch of asymptomatic people preferably in a population where the virus is not prevalent in the community. Where are those situations now?
Asymptomatic transmission is ingrained in our understanding of this virus. Many other viruses can shed/spread before symptoms.
Is it the primary way this virus spreads? No.
Sicker people with higher viral loads are going to spread more which is why all sick people must isolate.
The only reason the non-sick with no known contacts are semi-isolating is to give the healthcare system a more manageable surge of cases infected when most of us in Western countries did not even know what "social distancing" meant, and got infected. Not all of them have presented to the hospitals yet.
Mar 23, 2020, 12:06 pm
#1435
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Pacific Wonderland
Programs: ʙᴏɴᴠo̱ʏ Au, IHG Au, HH Dia, Nexus, Pilot FlyingJ Preferred
Posts: 5,336
States which cater to cruise travel should be the ones bear the brunt of issues caused by cruise travel, including quarantine issues relating to ships that either originate or end in the ports in these states. Why should the states benefitting from cruise travel not be responsible for this?
And then there's the issue of which states really benefit. See page 68 to see one such attempt to quantify (disclaimer: industry piece)
https://cruising.org/-/media/research-updates/research/contribution-of-the-international-cruise-industry-to-the-us-economy-2018.pdf
Mar 23, 2020, 12:27 pm
#1436
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Seat 1A, Juice pretty much everywhere, Mucci des Coins Exotiques
Posts: 34,339
I've never been on a cruise and I am not about to defend that industry, but I can tell you that some states benefit significantly. Some years back there was a study about Bermuda that said they benefit over $400m a year. Which is a lot for such a tiny nation.
Mar 23, 2020, 12:33 pm
#1437
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 6,752
Neither have I, and, at this rate, I likely never will. Per FT tradition, since I don't take cruises, let's not bail them out and let them fail.
Mar 23, 2020, 12:38 pm
#1438
Ambassador: China
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Malibu Inferno Ground Zero
Programs: UA AA CO
Posts: 4,836
BACK OFF!
Face Masks Signal Loud and Clear: Don’t Come Near Me
"Wearing a mask could serve as a relatively costly signal that someone is serious about social distancing. It’s costly because it looks unattractive and causes other people to treat you with suspicion. Thus, it could be a forceful, effective message to others to stay away when otherwise they might not respect your boundaries.'The U.S. could benefit from this approach, especially now. In the U.S., where wearing masks isn't common or widely accepted, the signal could be even more powerful. Americans are unused to the idea of social distancing and many aren’t yet taking it
Mar 23, 2020, 12:46 pm
#1439
Suspended
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Ontario, Canada
Programs: Aeroplan, IHG, Enterprise, Avios, Nexus
Posts: 8,355
Mar 23, 2020, 12:50 pm
#1440
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 6,752
BACK OFF!
Face Masks Signal Loud and Clear: Don’t Come Near Me
"Wearing a mask could serve as a relatively costly signal that someone is serious about social distancing. It’s costly because it looks unattractive and causes other people to treat you with suspicion. Thus, it could be a forceful, effective message to others to stay away when otherwise they might not respect your boundaries.'The U.S. could benefit from this approach, especially now. In the U.S., where wearing masks isn't common or widely accepted, the signal could be even more powerful. Americans are unused to the idea of social distancing and many aren’t yet taking it seriously. "https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-03-19/social-distancing-greatly-slows-spread-of-coronavirus