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The 2017 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004

The 2017 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004

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Old Dec 10, 17, 4:12 pm
  #1756  
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Originally Posted by nufnuf77 View Post
Would BA refund a train ticket Ncl-London? We were dumped here off Hel flight, and told no seats tomorrow. Should we stay here for 2 nights at a rather nice crowne plaza?
Well, strictly speaking yes, you should stay put. In the past BA have paid multiple hotel nights in order to keep people on BA metal, but been reluctant to pay train fares instead even though that is economic madness. By all means ring BA tomorrow about this, but unless otherwise informed, your safest bet is to stay in the hotel. There is an increasingly strong argument that if BA cannot rebook someone within 24 hours then travellers are able to rebook themselves and charge BA for the outcome. I base that on the CAA's statements over the Ryanair flight crew shortage problem earlier this year.
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Old Dec 10, 17, 5:20 pm
  #1757  
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Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave View Post
Well, strictly speaking yes, you should stay put. In the past BA have paid multiple hotel nights in order to keep people on BA metal, but been reluctant to pay train fares instead even though that is economic madness. By all means ring BA tomorrow about this, but unless otherwise informed, your safest bet is to stay in the hotel. There is an increasingly strong argument that if BA cannot rebook someone within 24 hours then travellers are able to rebook themselves and charge BA for the outcome. I base that on the CAA's statements over the Ryanair flight crew shortage problem earlier this year.
Thanks for the input, most appreciated. My rebooked BA1333 has now been cancelled and there are no seats at all on 11DEC, so might just book a train and try and claim it anyway. Got myself a nice suite at crowne plaza and a dinner, so can't complain.
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Old Dec 10, 17, 5:33 pm
  #1758  
 
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Originally Posted by jackharpenden View Post
Hello,
As far as I understand it in the case of a flight cancellation within 7 days of the scheduled flight I am entitled to 600 euros in compensation, as the distance is over 3500km and I was forced to depart more than 1 hour before the originally booked flight time. The airline has told me "because you arrived at your destination within four hours of your scheduled arrival time, you’re entitled to €300.00 in compensation, which is 50% of the full amount." On the EU page that details my rights it states "if the air carrier has offered you re-routing and you reach your final destination with a delay of 2, 3 or 4 hours the compensation may be reduced by 50%". I did not arrive at the destination airport with a delay of 2, 3 or 4 hours; I arrived at a different airport about 3 hours BEFORE the originally scheduled arrival time (it did however take me 1 hour by road to reach Baltimore from Dulles airport), but I was very much inconvenienced by having to leave London almost 4 hours before the booked time. My question here is am I entitled to 600 euros or 300 euros?
Many thanks,
Jack
Hi Jack,

I think your understanding of the regulations is correct.

It believe that BA should be compensating you €600 according to article 7 and assisting you according article 8.

This is because article 5 (cancellation) 1(C) applies in your case.

5 1 (C) applies, unless the qualifiers 5 1(C) (i), (ii) and (iii) apply, but they do not.

(iii) fails due to you departing more than 1 hour prior to your scheduled time of departure. (ii) and (i) obviously don't apply either.

Article 7 compensation cannot be reduced by 50%. Only compensation under article 8 can.

If BA will not agree with this interpretation of the rules I would ask for a referral to CEDR.
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Old Dec 10, 17, 5:56 pm
  #1759  
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Getting some amazing service from agent on GGL line. Spotted that the morning BA584 (NCL-LHR) opened up so grabbed me a J seat and can't re-issue the ticket so I can get to work on time. Never thought my BA799 (HEL-LHR) would have me going to NCL but it's all good it seems. First time I was pleasantly surprised by the India GGL team!
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Old Dec 10, 17, 7:24 pm
  #1760  
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Originally Posted by Tyzap View Post
...

Article 7 compensation cannot be reduced by 50%. Only compensation under article 8 can. ...
While I am all for passenger rights and how eu261/2004 assists, I would suggest this may be incorrect.

5.1(a) points directly to Article 8.

5.1(c) points directly to Article 7 with as indicated none of the exclusions 5.1(c)(i)/(ii)/(iii) applying.

Compensation under Article 7 can be reduced by 50% by clause 7.2 - in this case 7.2 (c).

Article 7 does refer to Article 8 but only in relation to "an alternative flight".

Also, for @Mountlodge, under Article 8.3 BA must bear the cost of getting to Baltimore from Dulles.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/resource.ht...C_1&format=PDF
Article 7

Right to compensation


1. Where reference is made to this Article, passengers shall receive compensation amounting to:
(a) EUR 250 for all flights of 1 500 kilometres or less;
(b) EUR 400 for all intra-Community flights of more than 1 500 kilometres, and for all other flights between 1 500 and 3 500 kilometres;
(c) EUR 600 for all flights not falling under (a) or (b).
In determining the distance, the basis shall be the last destination at which the denial of boarding or cancellation will delay the passenger's arrival after the scheduled time.
2. When passengers are offered re-routing to their final destination on an alternative flight pursuant to Article 8, the arrival time of which does not exceed the scheduled arrival time of the flight originally booked
(a) by two hours, in respect of all flights of 1 500 kilometres or less; or
(b) by three hours, in respect of all intra-Community flights of more than 1 500 kilometres and for all other flights between 1 500 and 3 500 kilometres; or
(c) by four hours, in respect of all flights not falling under (a) or (b), the operating air carrier may reduce the compensation provided for in paragraph 1 by 50 %.
3. The compensation referred to in paragraph 1 shall be paid in cash, by electronic bank transfer, bank orders or bank cheques or, with the signed agreement of the passenger, in travel vouchers and/or other services.
4. The distances given in paragraphs 1 and 2 shall be measured by the great circle route method.
rechecking
Article 8

Right to reimbursement or re-routing

...
3. When, in the case where a town, city or region is served by several airports, an operating air carrier offers a passenger a flight to an airport alternative to that for which the booking was made, the operating air carrier shall bear the cost of transferring the passenger from that alternative airport either to that for which the booking was made, or to another close-by destination agreed with the passenger.

Last edited by serfty; Dec 10, 17 at 7:49 pm
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Old Dec 10, 17, 8:15 pm
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EU 261 Sun 10th SnowBomb questions

Bit of advice needed if possible.

My son and friend had their 16.00 (ish) flight home from Nice cancelled Sunday, they have been re-booked onto the last flight Monday (21.00 ish)

They have been put up in a hotel but I have a few questions, (having read the EU261 widget)
  • In terms of sustenance throughout Monday, I assume they can keep their receipts, they shouldn't be expected to hang around the airport all day should they?
  • Did they, or do they still, have the option to say, "that 30 hour delay is unreasonable, we want either booking onto another airline or the scope to go home by train at BA's expense"
  • In terms of EU261, my understanding of exceptional circumstances is that weather delays are not valid for claims. However in the main thread I saw this...
15) What about knock-on effects?
This relates to disruption caused by aircraft being in the wrong place, at the wrong time, leading to you being disrupted. For example if you are due to fly from Cape Town to London but your aircraft is still stuck in New York due to a blizzard. In that situation you should be entitled to compensation.
  • Clearly the snow delay was not in Nice itself, so would they therefore come under the scope of the compensation scheme?

Thanks all in advance
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Old Dec 10, 17, 11:45 pm
  #1762  
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Originally Posted by Omba View Post
Bit of advice needed if possible.

My son and friend had their 16.00 (ish) flight home from Nice cancelled Sunday, they have been re-booked onto the last flight Monday (21.00 ish)

They have been put up in a hotel but I have a few questions, (having read the EU261 widget)
  • In terms of sustenance throughout Monday, I assume they can keep their receipts, they shouldn't be expected to hang around the airport all day should they?
  • Did they, or do they still, have the option to say, "that 30 hour delay is unreasonable, we want either booking onto another airline or the scope to go home by train at BA's expense"
  • In terms of EU261, my understanding of exceptional circumstances is that weather delays are not valid for claims. However in the main thread I saw this...
15) What about knock-on effects?
This relates to disruption caused by aircraft being in the wrong place, at the wrong time, leading to you being disrupted. For example if you are due to fly from Cape Town to London but your aircraft is still stuck in New York due to a blizzard. In that situation you should be entitled to compensation.
  • Clearly the snow delay was not in Nice itself, so would they therefore come under the scope of the compensation scheme?

Thanks all in advance
Sustenance allowance BA likes is: £25 per person per day on food, you can spend more but they would fight it and prob only refund £25. You also get taxi allowance of £50, 2 reasonable phone calls, and £200 per night in hotel max.
You can try the 30-hour line, but BA seems more than happy to reimburse multiple hotel nights then to repay train tickets which are cheaper, go figure...
EC compensation unlikely to apply, You can try it on the argument that BA caused a mess and all other companies were fine, but who knows (coincidentally our pilot said during the delay it's BA's poor gate allocation planning meaning we could land but not park anywhere (then he also said because of this cock-up ATC said no more BA planes to be admitted to LHR).
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Old Dec 11, 17, 12:16 am
  #1763  
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Originally Posted by Omba View Post
Bit of advice needed if possible.

My son and friend had their 16.00 (ish) flight home from Nice cancelled Sunday, they have been re-booked onto the last flight Monday (21.00 ish)

They have been put up in a hotel but I have a few questions, (having read the EU261 widget)
  • In terms of sustenance throughout Monday, I assume they can keep their receipts, they shouldn't be expected to hang around the airport all day should they?
  • Did they, or do they still, have the option to say, "that 30 hour delay is unreasonable, we want either booking onto another airline or the scope to go home by train at BA's expense"
  • In terms of EU261, my understanding of exceptional circumstances is that weather delays are not valid for claims. However in the main thread I saw this...
15) What about knock-on effects?
This relates to disruption caused by aircraft being in the wrong place, at the wrong time, leading to you being disrupted. For example if you are due to fly from Cape Town to London but your aircraft is still stuck in New York due to a blizzard. In that situation you should be entitled to compensation.
  • Clearly the snow delay was not in Nice itself, so would they therefore come under the scope of the compensation scheme?

Thanks all in advance
Yes, keep all refreshment receipts and submit them. They only need to show at the airport in time to check in for their revised flight.

EC261 doesn’t put a timescale on being re-routed on other carriers, or by other means, and in the circumstances just over a day’s delay to remain on BA might not be considered too unreasonable by a court - if it stretched to several days they might have a case. The closer they get to the revised flight, the harder it becomes to argue. I personally wouldn’t consider pursuing this.

The knock-on effects don’t really apply here, I’d say. Nice is a destination where most airlines will back to back aircraft, so if the plane can’t leave LHR then clearly the return is not going to operate either. In the circumstances it wouldn’t be reasonable or practical for BA to route an aircraft from elsewhere to fly to Nice then back to London because the fleet would be needed to ferry passengers from wherever that ‘elsewhere’ was, at which point it would be stuck in London. The knock-on might apply when the plane is due to go on to a different destination after arriving in London, as BA would then have time and available planes at its hub to arrange an alternative, so it might be reasonable (and this is a key word in EC261) to expect them to do that rather than wait for the flight to arrive from wherever it’s stuck.

​​​​​​​
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Old Dec 11, 17, 3:02 am
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Originally Posted by serfty View Post
While I am all for passenger rights and how eu261/2004 assists, I would suggest this may be incorrect.

5.1(a) points directly to Article 8.

5.1(c) points directly to Article 7 with as indicated none of the exclusions 5.1(c)(i)/(ii)/(iii) applying.

Compensation under Article 7 can be reduced by 50% by clause 7.2 - in this case 7.2 (c).

Article 7 does refer to Article 8 but only in relation to "an alternative flight".


rechecking
The right to compensation is not pursuant to Article 8, it's pursuant to article 7.

In this case you are governed by Article 5, which does not go as far as 7.2 c, that only applies under article 8.

I think you may be following the logic of the CSA who has confused different parts of the regs to come up with a hybrid answer.
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Old Dec 11, 17, 3:17 am
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Originally Posted by Tyzap View Post
Article 7 compensation cannot be reduced by 50%. Only compensation under article 8 can.
Originally Posted by Tyzap View Post
The right to compensation is not pursuant to Article 8, it's pursuant to article 7.

In this case you are governed by Article 5, which does not go as far as 7.2 c, that only applies under article 8.
It seems to me that Article 5 does not limit the parts which it invokes of either Articles 7 or 8.

If your flight is cancelled, you must always be offered Article 8 assistance. (Article 8 does not provide for compensation, but you knew that.)

In addition, you may qualify for Article 7 compensation if you do not fall within one of the exceptions set out in Articles 5(1)(c)(i) to (iii).

That combination means that when a passenger whose flight has been cancelled qualifies for Article 7 compensation, they may also have been cared for under Article 8 by re-booking / re-routing. Therefore Article 7(2) can be triggered by whatever has been done for the passenger under Article 8.

In addition, Article 8 is not a standalone provision. You only get to Article 8 by being referred to it through either Article 4, Article 5 or Article 6. Applying your logic, Article 7(2) would never be applicable, because you could always say "In this case you are governed by Article 4", "In this case you are governed by Article 5" or "In this case you are governed by Article 6". That simply doesn't make sense.
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Last edited by Globaliser; Dec 11, 17 at 3:22 am
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Old Dec 11, 17, 3:20 am
  #1766  
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Originally Posted by nufnuf77 View Post
Thanks for the input, most appreciated. My rebooked BA1333 has now been cancelled and there are no seats at all on 11DEC, so might just book a train and try and claim it anyway. Got myself a nice suite at crowne plaza and a dinner, so can't complain.
Keep on checking, I found availability this morning for the BA1335 at 17:30. There was that 767 service earlier this morning that opened up for business overnight, however it has now departed/ing.

EDIT: just seen your later post, so you seem to be sorted.
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Old Dec 11, 17, 3:29 am
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My MMB screen for yesterday's cancelled LHR departure only gives me the option to change/refund today's return, which also got cancelled. Anything I can do other than calling them, which seems pointless?
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Old Dec 11, 17, 3:46 am
  #1768  
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Originally Posted by wobbly wings View Post
My MMB screen for yesterday's cancelled LHR departure only gives me the option to change/refund today's return, which also got cancelled. Anything I can do other than calling them, which seems pointless?
What are you trying to do, ideally? For EC261 purposes the options are rebook or refund.
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Old Dec 11, 17, 3:56 am
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Hi all,

I have a question on a flight that has been cancelled - HKGLHR on the BA28.
  • I was booked in WTP but the flight was cancelled (not sure the reason but looks like inbound never took off from LHR)
  • Was offered a seat on the BA32 same day but only in economy, so refused
  • Rebooked 2 days later in WTP
Am I still entitled to EU compensation, given that I was offered a seat, albeit in a lower class? Also, am I entitled to 'duty of care' given the same circumstances? The booking was a redemption booking using a 2-4-1.

Thanks!
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Old Dec 11, 17, 4:18 am
  #1770  
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Originally Posted by jonas123 View Post
I have a question on a flight that has been cancelled - HKGLHR on the BA28.
  • I was booked in WTP but the flight was cancelled (not sure the reason but looks like inbound never took off from LHR)
  • Was offered a seat on the BA32 same day but only in economy, so refused
  • Rebooked 2 days later in WTP
Am I still entitled to EU compensation, given that I was offered a seat, albeit in a lower class? Also, am I entitled to 'duty of care' given the same circumstances? The booking was a redemption booking using a 2-4-1.
If the cancellation was due to weather (ie very recent) then no delay compensation. And if you travel in your booked class then no downgrade reimbursement either. For the right of care, I think there is a good reading for supporting a claim for that, please keep us posted.
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