The 2017 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004
Dec 14, 2017, 2:57 am
#1801
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 67
It seems to me that Article 5 does not limit the parts which it invokes of either Articles 7 or 8.
If your flight is cancelled, you must always be offered Article 8 assistance. (Article 8 does not provide for compensation, but you knew that.)
In addition, you may qualify for Article 7 compensation if you do not fall within one of the exceptions set out in Articles 5(1)(c)(i) to (iii).
That combination means that when a passenger whose flight has been cancelled qualifies for Article 7 compensation, they may also have been cared for under Article 8 by re-booking / re-routing. Therefore Article 7(2) can be triggered by whatever has been done for the passenger under Article 8.
In addition, Article 8 is not a standalone provision. You only get to Article 8 by being referred to it through either Article 4, Article 5 or Article 6. Applying your logic, Article 7(2) would never be applicable, because you could always say "In this case you are governed by Article 4", "In this case you are governed by Article 5" or "In this case you are governed by Article 6". That simply doesn't make sense.
If your flight is cancelled, you must always be offered Article 8 assistance. (Article 8 does not provide for compensation, but you knew that.)
In addition, you may qualify for Article 7 compensation if you do not fall within one of the exceptions set out in Articles 5(1)(c)(i) to (iii).
That combination means that when a passenger whose flight has been cancelled qualifies for Article 7 compensation, they may also have been cared for under Article 8 by re-booking / re-routing. Therefore Article 7(2) can be triggered by whatever has been done for the passenger under Article 8.
In addition, Article 8 is not a standalone provision. You only get to Article 8 by being referred to it through either Article 4, Article 5 or Article 6. Applying your logic, Article 7(2) would never be applicable, because you could always say "In this case you are governed by Article 4", "In this case you are governed by Article 5" or "In this case you are governed by Article 6". That simply doesn't make sense.
Dec 14, 2017, 11:29 am
#1802
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 2
This seems like a high quality thread. Hope there is some help to receive in this complex matter!
The Background:
We were booked on BA280 from LAX 10 dec with final destination ARN through LHR. When we arrived at LAX the inbound flight was delayed ~6 hours coming from LHR. The BA staff decided to re-book us with Aer Lingus/Finnair LAX-DUB-HEL-ARN instead. Last two sectors in J class. Now the inbound EI144 got clipped by a vehicle when landing at LAX causing a waiting time of aprox 4 hours and were about 3,5 hours late landing into DUB when the real trouble started. EI staff at LAX never issued boarding cards for our onward flight to HEL and the transfer desk at DUB was closed (I believe we could have made the flight to HEL if we got some help, we landed about 40 min before flight to HEL departed. I estimate that our plane from LAX was about 95% connecting pax where some pax could have made their connections with the proper assistance. The staff at DUB must have had about 8 hours to prepare to assist connecting pax, but instead were totally absent). After queuing about 3 hours in 3 separate queues we finally got our luggage, hotel accommodation, and onward flights (now DUB-LHR-CPH-ARN) arranged. Finally we landed at ARN 13 Dec at about 22:00, 30 hours late and now with everybody’s (3 passengers) luggage missing!
So in total the delay was about 30 hour but from different sources and reasons:
Re-booking 1 (by BA): About 9 hours (knock-on of weather)
Re-booking 2 (by EI): About 21 hours (missed connections due to technical issues with EI144)
The Questions:
Q1. As I see it, we are eligible for the €600 from BA due to this being a knock-on effect of the problems at LHR -Is that view correct? And if not, are snow in December really considered an "extraordinary circumstance"? It is my understanding that the ATC did not cancel flights but rather the insufficient de-icing capabilities acted as bottleneck at LHR, de-icing measures that lies within BA's responsibility.
Q2. Is there also a chance to receive €600 from Aer Lingus as well? After all, this delay was from another issue also covered by EC 261. Or does it stipulate that all is the same trip? However, we had to take cab in DUB and are we supposed to ask BA for reimbursement even though EI clearly are to blame??
Q3. Re-booking 1 contained 2 sectors in J class. Re-booking 2 downgraded these, is this acceptable due to original booking was in Y?
Q4. Generally, if I ever have to deal with this again, would it make sense to bargain with the booking agent at he airport? (They all seem to give the customer a crazy itinerary saying: “this is the only option” or “it’s the best I got, all other flights are full”) Is it a good idea to go online and look for a better option demanding the agent to book you with that option? I discovered on a different forum that the AA flights out of LAX were not full at all…
The Background:
We were booked on BA280 from LAX 10 dec with final destination ARN through LHR. When we arrived at LAX the inbound flight was delayed ~6 hours coming from LHR. The BA staff decided to re-book us with Aer Lingus/Finnair LAX-DUB-HEL-ARN instead. Last two sectors in J class. Now the inbound EI144 got clipped by a vehicle when landing at LAX causing a waiting time of aprox 4 hours and were about 3,5 hours late landing into DUB when the real trouble started. EI staff at LAX never issued boarding cards for our onward flight to HEL and the transfer desk at DUB was closed (I believe we could have made the flight to HEL if we got some help, we landed about 40 min before flight to HEL departed. I estimate that our plane from LAX was about 95% connecting pax where some pax could have made their connections with the proper assistance. The staff at DUB must have had about 8 hours to prepare to assist connecting pax, but instead were totally absent). After queuing about 3 hours in 3 separate queues we finally got our luggage, hotel accommodation, and onward flights (now DUB-LHR-CPH-ARN) arranged. Finally we landed at ARN 13 Dec at about 22:00, 30 hours late and now with everybody’s (3 passengers) luggage missing!
So in total the delay was about 30 hour but from different sources and reasons:
Re-booking 1 (by BA): About 9 hours (knock-on of weather)
Re-booking 2 (by EI): About 21 hours (missed connections due to technical issues with EI144)
The Questions:
Q1. As I see it, we are eligible for the €600 from BA due to this being a knock-on effect of the problems at LHR -Is that view correct? And if not, are snow in December really considered an "extraordinary circumstance"? It is my understanding that the ATC did not cancel flights but rather the insufficient de-icing capabilities acted as bottleneck at LHR, de-icing measures that lies within BA's responsibility.
Q2. Is there also a chance to receive €600 from Aer Lingus as well? After all, this delay was from another issue also covered by EC 261. Or does it stipulate that all is the same trip? However, we had to take cab in DUB and are we supposed to ask BA for reimbursement even though EI clearly are to blame??
Q3. Re-booking 1 contained 2 sectors in J class. Re-booking 2 downgraded these, is this acceptable due to original booking was in Y?
Q4. Generally, if I ever have to deal with this again, would it make sense to bargain with the booking agent at he airport? (They all seem to give the customer a crazy itinerary saying: “this is the only option” or “it’s the best I got, all other flights are full”) Is it a good idea to go online and look for a better option demanding the agent to book you with that option? I discovered on a different forum that the AA flights out of LAX were not full at all…
Dec 14, 2017, 1:22 pm
#1803
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 63,830
Q1. As I see it, we are eligible for the €600 from BA due to this being a knock-on effect of the problems at LHR -Is that view correct? And if not, are snow in December really considered an "extraordinary circumstance"? It is my understanding that the ATC did not cancel flights but rather the insufficient de-icing capabilities acted as bottleneck at LHR, de-icing measures that lies within BA's responsibility.
Q2. Is there also a chance to receive €600 from Aer Lingus as well? After all, this delay was from another issue also covered by EC 261. Or does it stipulate that all is the same trip? However, we had to take cab in DUB and are we supposed to ask BA for reimbursement even though EI clearly are to blame??
Q3. Re-booking 1 contained 2 sectors in J class. Re-booking 2 downgraded these, is this acceptable due to original booking was in Y?
Q4. Generally, if I ever have to deal with this again, would it make sense to bargain with the booking agent at he airport? (They all seem to give the customer a crazy itinerary saying: “this is the only option” or “it’s the best I got, all other flights are full”) Is it a good idea to go online and look for a better option demanding the agent to book you with that option? I discovered on a different forum that the AA flights out of LAX were not full at all…
Q2. Is there also a chance to receive €600 from Aer Lingus as well? After all, this delay was from another issue also covered by EC 261. Or does it stipulate that all is the same trip? However, we had to take cab in DUB and are we supposed to ask BA for reimbursement even though EI clearly are to blame??
Q3. Re-booking 1 contained 2 sectors in J class. Re-booking 2 downgraded these, is this acceptable due to original booking was in Y?
Q4. Generally, if I ever have to deal with this again, would it make sense to bargain with the booking agent at he airport? (They all seem to give the customer a crazy itinerary saying: “this is the only option” or “it’s the best I got, all other flights are full”) Is it a good idea to go online and look for a better option demanding the agent to book you with that option? I discovered on a different forum that the AA flights out of LAX were not full at all…
1) It's not a knock-on case, for reasons explained in the other thread, the service was impacted by the weather rather than related to a previous separate weather event. Now there is a debate going on in that other thread as to whether BA should pay EC261. Personally I'm fairly sceptical about this, BA certainly won't pay up for the delay so I'm almost certain you would have to take legal action to get anywhere. Moreover I'm not sure it will be successful, however you can see in that thread the arguments being put forward. The only person who can make a definitive statement on this is a judge. For reference the thread is:
Bad weather disruption - UK/AMS/NW Europe - 10 & 11 December 2017
and the posts concerned start from post 547 onwards.
2) The second case is also a mixed one, it depends exactly who struck the Aer Lingus aircraft. If it was one of their own suppliers or ground agents then yes, Aer Lingus are responsible for potential EC261. However if the truck belonged to another airline or otherwise unconnected with Aer Lingus then that's extraordinary circumstances again. However Aer Lingus are responsible for Right to Care claims.
3) I don't think you can claim for the downgrade if your original ticket was in economy.
4) It's a bit of well repeated advice here: never go to a ticket agent with a problem. Always go to a ticket agent with a problem and at least two solutions.
Dec 14, 2017, 3:18 pm
#1804
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 2
Welcome to Flyertalk and welcome to the British Airways forum D4DD3. You sound like you had a really bad set of trips there, and I hope you have managed to recover from the poor handling of your travel plans.
1) It's not a knock-on case, for reasons explained in the other thread, the service was impacted by the weather rather than related to a previous separate weather event. Now there is a debate going on in that other thread as to whether BA should pay EC261. Personally I'm fairly sceptical about this, BA certainly won't pay up for the delay so I'm almost certain you would have to take legal action to get anywhere. Moreover I'm not sure it will be successful, however you can see in that thread the arguments being put forward. The only person who can make a definitive statement on this is a judge. For reference the thread is:
x
and the posts concerned start from post 547 onwards.
2) The second case is also a mixed one, it depends exactly who struck the Aer Lingus aircraft. If it was one of their own suppliers or ground agents then yes, Aer Lingus are responsible for potential EC261. However if the truck belonged to another airline or otherwise unconnected with Aer Lingus then that's extraordinary circumstances again. However Aer Lingus are responsible for Right to Care claims.
3) I don't think you can claim for the downgrade if your original ticket was in economy.
4) It's a bit of well repeated advice here: never go to a ticket agent with a problem. Always go to a ticket agent with a problem and at least two solutions.
1) It's not a knock-on case, for reasons explained in the other thread, the service was impacted by the weather rather than related to a previous separate weather event. Now there is a debate going on in that other thread as to whether BA should pay EC261. Personally I'm fairly sceptical about this, BA certainly won't pay up for the delay so I'm almost certain you would have to take legal action to get anywhere. Moreover I'm not sure it will be successful, however you can see in that thread the arguments being put forward. The only person who can make a definitive statement on this is a judge. For reference the thread is:
x
and the posts concerned start from post 547 onwards.
2) The second case is also a mixed one, it depends exactly who struck the Aer Lingus aircraft. If it was one of their own suppliers or ground agents then yes, Aer Lingus are responsible for potential EC261. However if the truck belonged to another airline or otherwise unconnected with Aer Lingus then that's extraordinary circumstances again. However Aer Lingus are responsible for Right to Care claims.
3) I don't think you can claim for the downgrade if your original ticket was in economy.
4) It's a bit of well repeated advice here: never go to a ticket agent with a problem. Always go to a ticket agent with a problem and at least two solutions.
1. Unfortunately I was'nt aware of this thread but I see now that the issue is'nt that black or white. Guess it's best to stay put and see how things develops for now.
2. I do not fully understand the practices of the re-booking. Are we still BA's customer or EI's? Both? The only information that was given to passengers was that some kind of vehicle had contact with the aircraft, an engineer subsequently investigated it and lastly had Lufthansa (Don't know why, maybe the aircraft is leased from them?) to asses the paperwork and make the verdict if it is safe to fly. It seems that it would be wise to at least try to file a EC261 claim.
3. Makes sense
4. Exactly, this was a good lesson. Next time I will be more prepared
I understand it might seem greedy to make these claims but it is also frustrating to be a customer in this situation. I lost a full workday due to these series of events, which to some degree seemed avoidable. The snarky BA officer in LAX and the incompetent management in DUB along with the stress demands some degree of compensation IMO, albeit we did not pay much for the original ticket.
Dec 14, 2017, 3:30 pm
#1805
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 63,830
2. I do not fully understand the practices of the re-booking. Are we still BA's customer or EI's? Both? The only information that was given to passengers was that some kind of vehicle had contact with the aircraft, an engineer subsequently investigated it and lastly had Lufthansa (Don't know why, maybe the aircraft is leased from them?) to asses the paperwork and make the verdict if it is safe to fly. It seems that it would be wise to at least try to file a EC261 claim.
Dec 14, 2017, 6:51 pm
#1806
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Edinburgh
Programs: BA Gold, Accor Silver, Flying Blue Zilch, East Coast Rewards Lots&lots, Miles & More nada
Posts: 288
I think I would divide my answer to this into two parts - what the Regulation says, and what BA will actually do. For the Regulations the 3 options apply for delays as well as cancellations, the required delay period being 5 hours, which would be the case here given it's the last flight of the night. So I think you are covered in this circumstance. If hypothetically there was a night flight which kept the delay below 5 hours then BA could insist you take it, which is understandable since it minimises their risk to pay Article 7 compensation. In terms of what BA will actually do, there would be no problem here. They will rebook you according to anything sensible for which there is availability (at the airport) or for a slightly stricter set of rules if using the Contact Centre but it won't get in the way of your plans here either way. You would only get 1 night hotel accommodation if - as one would expect - there was Saturday availability for LHR-EDI.
Dec 15, 2017, 3:50 am
#1807
Ambassador: World of Hyatt
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: UK - the nearest airport is named after a motorway !
Posts: 4,235
'duty of care' question at point of departure of trip
So, I should have been on BA57 on Sunday night, which was cancelled because of the weather (and while I am in the group who think that BA's/HAL's handling of the weather was the real cause of the cock-up, I'm not even thinking about trying to claim compensation for it). I got the text advising of the cancellation just as I drove onto the T5 spur road from the M25, so wasted 2.5 hours of my Sunday evening driving to/from LHR, and also put 140 unnecessary miles on my car.
I just drove home again, so no hotel bill/accomodation/taxis necessary for BA to fulfil their 'duty of care'. Can I claim the mileage?
I just drove home again, so no hotel bill/accomodation/taxis necessary for BA to fulfil their 'duty of care'. Can I claim the mileage?
Dec 15, 2017, 5:37 am
#1808
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denmark
Programs: TK Elite
Posts: 11,852
No - EC Reg. 261/04 does provide any grounds for compensation for mileage driven in vain.
Dec 15, 2017, 7:00 am
#1809
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 9
Hi everyone,
Long-time lurker and first-time poster, apologies if I am posting in the wrong thread, I did spend a lot of time looking around and reading.
On the 7th of May during BA's last luxury sale I booked a return First class flight LGW-UVF in November. (Fare class is A.)
2 weeks ago I was informed by BA that the flight is "cancelled" i.e. they changed the aircraft from a 4-class to 3-class and downgraded me to CW.
According to BA, EU 261/2004 does not apply, and they have done some calculation which means the resulting ticket costs me more than if I had bought a CW ticket in the sale back in May. So I get some money back but nowhere near the 75%.
I specifically booked First because I wanted to get a flying start (pardon the pun) on earning tier points and now that is also out the window. I am currently an EC Gold and have been for several years but that is likely to change now that I have moved out of the UK.
Has anyone been in a similar situation, what is your opinion? All advice hugely appreciated.
Many thanks,
kennedyc
Long-time lurker and first-time poster, apologies if I am posting in the wrong thread, I did spend a lot of time looking around and reading.
On the 7th of May during BA's last luxury sale I booked a return First class flight LGW-UVF in November. (Fare class is A.)
2 weeks ago I was informed by BA that the flight is "cancelled" i.e. they changed the aircraft from a 4-class to 3-class and downgraded me to CW.
According to BA, EU 261/2004 does not apply, and they have done some calculation which means the resulting ticket costs me more than if I had bought a CW ticket in the sale back in May. So I get some money back but nowhere near the 75%.
I specifically booked First because I wanted to get a flying start (pardon the pun) on earning tier points and now that is also out the window. I am currently an EC Gold and have been for several years but that is likely to change now that I have moved out of the UK.
Has anyone been in a similar situation, what is your opinion? All advice hugely appreciated.
Many thanks,
kennedyc
Just wanted to update you on what happened with my downgrade.
After much arguing back and forth and a letter to Alex Cruz (though I doubt it reached him), I was refunded 75% of the fare. So it was worth persevering and thank you all for your advice and support!
Happy Christmas and best wishes for 2018,
kennedyc
Dec 15, 2017, 7:03 am
#1810
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 9
Hi P.henrik,
I did get my 75% refund in the end, do you think I should still try for the ORC? Any tips?
Thanks,
kennedyc
I did get my 75% refund in the end, do you think I should still try for the ORC? Any tips?
Thanks,
kennedyc
Dec 15, 2017, 7:15 am
#1812
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Brighton. UK
Programs: BA Gold / VS /IHG Diamond & Ambassador
Posts: 14,202
So, I should have been on BA57 on Sunday night, which was cancelled because of the weather (and while I am in the group who think that BA's/HAL's handling of the weather was the real cause of the cock-up, I'm not even thinking about trying to claim compensation for it). I got the text advising of the cancellation just as I drove onto the T5 spur road from the M25, so wasted 2.5 hours of my Sunday evening driving to/from LHR, and also put 140 unnecessary miles on my car.
I just drove home again, so no hotel bill/accomodation/taxis necessary for BA to fulfil their 'duty of care'. Can I claim the mileage?
I just drove home again, so no hotel bill/accomodation/taxis necessary for BA to fulfil their 'duty of care'. Can I claim the mileage?
I'm putting in a claim for two train tickets I booked in advance but couldn't use because of the cancellation. I'll see what they say and report back.
Dec 15, 2017, 7:36 am
#1813
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 14
Filed my response to BA's Defence at CEDR today. This is for a flight cancelled due to the Mixed Fleet cabin crew strike. The timeline is roughly this:
Flight booked for 15th August.
11th August flight cancelled.and booked on a flight 24 hours later instead
13th August I request compensation
2nd September BA respond denying compensation but giving no reason for the cancellation
4th September I ask again.
15 September BA respond a second time this time saying the cancellation was due to the strike
22 September I respond to BA
6 October BA's third response denying compensation.
6th October I file with CEDR
26th October CEDR accept my claim
13th November BA submit their defence
23rd November I submit my response
As you can see, this has dragged on rather!
Flight booked for 15th August.
11th August flight cancelled.and booked on a flight 24 hours later instead
13th August I request compensation
2nd September BA respond denying compensation but giving no reason for the cancellation
4th September I ask again.
15 September BA respond a second time this time saying the cancellation was due to the strike
22 September I respond to BA
6 October BA's third response denying compensation.
6th October I file with CEDR
26th October CEDR accept my claim
13th November BA submit their defence
23rd November I submit my response
As you can see, this has dragged on rather!
Dec 15, 2017, 9:14 am
#1814
Ambassador: World of Hyatt
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: UK - the nearest airport is named after a motorway !
Posts: 4,235
I would, but I can't see how to - the choices for travel expenses are car hire/ferry/taxi/train, not option for plain car, and you have to upload a receipt, no option to actually try to explain. It seems daft, I guess that if I'd taken a taxi both ways I could have put in a claim, but I can't for mileage....
Dec 18, 2017, 12:16 pm
#1815
Join Date: Mar 2017
Programs: Hhonors Diamond, IHG Platinum, BA Silver
Posts: 260
On December 8th, I was on the last flight to Dusseldorf, whose airport was temporarily closed due to weather. There was insufficient fuel to queue to land, so the flight was diverted to Frankfurt. I understand coaches were ordered to go to Dusseldorf, but would have arrived too late for me to pick up my rental car.
I therefore booked a Frankfurt hotel and took the train the next day.
Thank you
I therefore booked a Frankfurt hotel and took the train the next day.
- Is the cause of delay weather or insufficient fuel?
- Can I claim the cost of hotel and the train?
- Why didn't the flight divert to closer airports Dortmund or Cologne?
Thank you