Sep 29, 2016, 2:55 am
Last edit by: Aus_Mal
This thread is for opinions on the concept of Buy on Board, concerned with the rights or wrongs of the decision to introduce it.
An information thread exists for your questions, particularly if they are on factual matters, here:
Buy on board: Information guide for BA shorthaul economy services
There is a separate thread for experiences, anecdotes, reactions and related comments, which is to be found here:
Buy on board: Experiences and reactions from BA's shorthaul economy services
Useful sub-links
chongcao posted a comparison of other oneworld airlines' BOB prices
Not happy about these changes?
If you have an existing booking, you may be able to complain and get 1000 Avios or cancel for free until 28 days before departure. BA's complaint form.
However, in November 2016, phone calls to BA indicated that "no refunds would be given as food & drinks were complimentary and not part of the T&C."
An information thread exists for your questions, particularly if they are on factual matters, here:
Buy on board: Information guide for BA shorthaul economy services
There is a separate thread for experiences, anecdotes, reactions and related comments, which is to be found here:
Buy on board: Experiences and reactions from BA's shorthaul economy services
Useful sub-links
chongcao posted a comparison of other oneworld airlines' BOB prices
Not happy about these changes?
If you have an existing booking, you may be able to complain and get 1000 Avios or cancel for free until 28 days before departure. BA's complaint form.
However, in November 2016, phone calls to BA indicated that "no refunds would be given as food & drinks were complimentary and not part of the T&C."
Buy on board: Implemented on BA short haul - opinions on the concept
Dec 27, 2016, 1:55 am
#2191
FlyerTalk Evangelist, Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
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PS: In the spirit of moving away from oft repeated arguments, one thing that we have not discussed much in this thread is that I think that part of the original drive to this BoB - or rather why it is BA which has gone that route - is that BA whilst being globally profitable has been historically less good at generating ancillary revenues than its competitors - not only low cost but also European legacy ones, as shown here:
http://fortune.com/2015/07/14/airlines-highest-fees/
Note that AF/KL is in 4th place ($2bln) in those rankings and the LH group 7th ($1.6bln), whilst FR is ranked 5th ($1.9bln)and U2 8th ($1.4bln). By contrast, IAG is not in the top 10 list and therefore below $1bln in 2014 (which is the amount managed by Alaska Airlines in 10th place). Of course those figures increase sharply every year (for IAG and everyone else) and are an increasing part of airlines' income and profit alike, but BA is late in that game and may have tried to hit big to catch up on its lateness.
My personal sense is that BoB is actually even more about ancillary income than it is about cost cutting (it is of course about both, but I personally suspect that this forum is partly wrong - or at least too customer-centric - in assuming that cost cutting is the major drive).
I would add that I'm personally convinced that it will also open the way to more ancillary income operations. For example, I fully expect Bronze/OW ruby as well as WT+ passengers to be sold lounge access for a fee before long.
I could also imagine a reform of the POUG/AUP system to make it more lucrative, maybe Champagne and premium drinks sold alongside the infamous snacks in WT and WT+ (in fact, they'd probably have more success!) while spirits may well be withdrawn from the free cart to create demand.
As discussed earlier, BA's yields are down and I suspect that this will be the key issue for Walsh and Cruz and as they won't be able to make up for it with fares as they decrease service levels, my sense is that beyond the obvious, which is seat densification, they will target ancillary income big time. After all, if DY is the model, that is also what they are excellent at.
http://fortune.com/2015/07/14/airlines-highest-fees/
Note that AF/KL is in 4th place ($2bln) in those rankings and the LH group 7th ($1.6bln), whilst FR is ranked 5th ($1.9bln)and U2 8th ($1.4bln). By contrast, IAG is not in the top 10 list and therefore below $1bln in 2014 (which is the amount managed by Alaska Airlines in 10th place). Of course those figures increase sharply every year (for IAG and everyone else) and are an increasing part of airlines' income and profit alike, but BA is late in that game and may have tried to hit big to catch up on its lateness.
My personal sense is that BoB is actually even more about ancillary income than it is about cost cutting (it is of course about both, but I personally suspect that this forum is partly wrong - or at least too customer-centric - in assuming that cost cutting is the major drive).
I would add that I'm personally convinced that it will also open the way to more ancillary income operations. For example, I fully expect Bronze/OW ruby as well as WT+ passengers to be sold lounge access for a fee before long.
I could also imagine a reform of the POUG/AUP system to make it more lucrative, maybe Champagne and premium drinks sold alongside the infamous snacks in WT and WT+ (in fact, they'd probably have more success!) while spirits may well be withdrawn from the free cart to create demand.
As discussed earlier, BA's yields are down and I suspect that this will be the key issue for Walsh and Cruz and as they won't be able to make up for it with fares as they decrease service levels, my sense is that beyond the obvious, which is seat densification, they will target ancillary income big time. After all, if DY is the model, that is also what they are excellent at.
Dec 27, 2016, 2:01 am
#2192
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,709
That is merely an empirical fact, repeated over and again by the airlines that have 'been there' such as LX, or are still trying - such as AF and AZ. For one of those I actually saw the figures and they were telling.
The fact that a market is price sensitive does not imply that it is fully elastic, far from it, and in many ways, BA has been benefitting from that for years. People do build loyalties, corporate contracts and policies (two different but equally important things) and reputational factors have been well-evidenced to play a significant role in purchase habits in both air travel and other industries, and is also well evidenced not to be symmetric (ie it does take much longer to build up a reputation than to break it down).
The fact that a market is price sensitive does not imply that it is fully elastic, far from it, and in many ways, BA has been benefitting from that for years. People do build loyalties, corporate contracts and policies (two different but equally important things) and reputational factors have been well-evidenced to play a significant role in purchase habits in both air travel and other industries, and is also well evidenced not to be symmetric (ie it does take much longer to build up a reputation than to break it down).
Dec 27, 2016, 2:10 am
#2193
FlyerTalk Evangelist, Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Remember the introduction of HBO, we had people surprised not to have an inclusive luggage allowance months after it was introduced. Sure, some papers have discussed this but not everyone reads the papers, and when they do they typically select specific news that interest them.And of course, this forum is vastly UK-centric and there has been exactly zero interest or comment on the story abroad whilst the majority of BA's crucial connecting traffic is foreign based be it in Europe (outgoing) or beyond (incoming). So your friend has no reason to feel bad, others will discover the change much later than him!
Dec 27, 2016, 2:10 am
#2194
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6,349
I can see both sides of the argument, however I find the proposition that it's a choice between BOB and regulated air travel to be a bit silly.
Dec 27, 2016, 8:02 am
#2195
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 11,586
Those of us purchasing tickets from the UK regions are paying considerably more than we used to for our long haul trips in J and F. Complementary refreshments are part of that fare, you may pay hundreds or even thousands of dollars less for your tickets and enjoy Club Europe to connect to your long haul. We on the other hand get to travel domestic economy for significantly more and now we have to pay for water or other refreshment.
The penny pinching is not just BOB, it's happening throughout the airline and, from my perspective, it's gone too far. It may be good value for you on cheap foreign tickets but those of us paying ever increasing U.K. prices we are certainly not enjoying value.
The penny pinching is not just BOB, it's happening throughout the airline and, from my perspective, it's gone too far. It may be good value for you on cheap foreign tickets but those of us paying ever increasing U.K. prices we are certainly not enjoying value.
BA still has a long way to go to provide a decent product to regional connecting pax who are paying a lot for CW for what can be cheaper F fares out of DUB.
There's sweet FA to make regional F pax feel special. I have not flown AF P but I am extremely impressed that by way of the Trip Reports of SFO777 there were PA's in stations like BOD!
I think you are at a huge advantage using MAN that you need a connecting flight and looking towards LH/LX or AF can offer competitive and (in my opinion) an overall more premium experience IF you are willing to connect in a US hub for your flights to LAS. I can only speak of LH and LX and my highest status has only been Senator that the treatment was really good and really no benefit to having such status except some seat blocking-which is at it should be.
Take MIA ex-MAN, its £3300 flat on LH/LX in F across the board with minimal advance purchase. BA is £4100. You can generally route LH/LX as you wish and the tickets have similar terms. There's no way I could be persuaded to take BA except on very specific routes where the aircraft is a bit crappy. Now something like 7 long-haul returns per year and you would have HON Circle status. You would never have a problem with Omniserve again
.My best wishes to you & family for New Year.
Dec 27, 2016, 9:16 am
#2196
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: London, UK
Programs: BA Gold; Marriott Plat
Posts: 147
Cabin crew today confirmed that Moscow will be going BoB in World Traveller.
Additionally I noticed they now have beer on tap in the GC lounge. I presume this is so the cans can be removed in January...
Additionally I noticed they now have beer on tap in the GC lounge. I presume this is so the cans can be removed in January...
Dec 27, 2016, 9:22 am
#2197
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: London
Programs: BA BLUE BADGE
Posts: 1,323
Not removed - Enhanced
Dec 27, 2016, 9:25 am
#2198
Join Date: May 2015
Location: ATL/MCO
Programs: Costco Executive, RaceTrac Sultan of Soda, Chick-fil-A Red
Posts: 5,663
Well I sure hope they rename the market to "Europe" instead of "World"
Dec 27, 2016, 9:32 am
#2200
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Join Date: Feb 2010
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I presume this is the A321 services so affected, otherwise they would have to retrain the entire WW crew for the relatively few wide bodied services that go to Moscow. That said, the existing complementary service was pretty poor on that route, but the difference with Aeroflot's service will become rather large.
Dec 27, 2016, 9:33 am
#2201
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: LHR/ATH
Programs: Amex Platinum, LH SEN (Gold), BA Bronze
Posts: 4,489
Yes, I think that as a whole, this forum is grossly overestimating how aware people are of the forthcoming change. Because we are obsessed with air travel doesn't mean that everyone else is! Remember the introduction of HBO, we had people surprised not to have an inclusive luggage allowance months after it was introduced. Sure, some papers have discussed this but not everyone reads the papers, and when they do they typically select specific news that interest them.
And of course, this forum is vastly UK-centric and there has been exactly zero interest or comment on the story abroad whilst the majority of BA's crucial connecting traffic is foreign based be it in Europe (outgoing) or beyond (incoming). So your friend has no reason to feel bad, others will discover the change much later than him!
Remember the introduction of HBO, we had people surprised not to have an inclusive luggage allowance months after it was introduced. Sure, some papers have discussed this but not everyone reads the papers, and when they do they typically select specific news that interest them.And of course, this forum is vastly UK-centric and there has been exactly zero interest or comment on the story abroad whilst the majority of BA's crucial connecting traffic is foreign based be it in Europe (outgoing) or beyond (incoming). So your friend has no reason to feel bad, others will discover the change much later than him!
Remember the good old days when you could check in as many bags as you wanted? =) I do !
Dec 27, 2016, 9:35 am
#2202
Join Date: May 2015
Location: ATL/MCO
Programs: Costco Executive, RaceTrac Sultan of Soda, Chick-fil-A Red
Posts: 5,663
Well all that BA has been doing this year is slowly aligning with DY, launching FLL and OAK routes from Gatwick is a dead giveaway after the BoB move.
Dec 27, 2016, 9:40 am
#2203
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Lewes
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Posts: 4,833
So we now hear that there will be BOB on long haul configured aircraft to DME...
Dec 27, 2016, 9:44 am
#2204
Join Date: May 2015
Location: ATL/MCO
Programs: Costco Executive, RaceTrac Sultan of Soda, Chick-fil-A Red
Posts: 5,663
I'm looking forward to having choice and quality on those flights as well and the flight crews on those flights will also benefit from being trained to serve the choice and quality products.
Since those flights are also configured with WTP, they will get complimentary BoB items and CW gets their "revamped meals"
If Cruz finds a way to cut them costs then he certainly will follow thru!
Dec 27, 2016, 9:49 am
#2205
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 699
I presume this is the A321 services so affected, otherwise they would have to retrain the entire WW crew for the relatively few wide bodied services that go to Moscow. That said, the existing complementary service was pretty poor on that route, but the difference with Aeroflot's service will become rather large.
What WILL be interesting however is the forthcoming 777 rotation on LHR-MAD-LHR. This route is currently being operated by Eurofleet. If WW pick up the 777 rotation they will have to receive some form of BOB training - or perhaps the route will just go Mixed Fleets way also.