hugolover

Tea, coffee, still & sparkling water as well as a Prince Polo bar or fizzy sweets are free on ALL LO flights. Its sandwiches, snacks and other soft drinks/alcohol that are chargeable. Much cheaper than BA. All Do&Co catered.

hugolover

Next week I will have my last ever domestic omelette .

Dan72

I was thinking the same. I have spotted a few other erroneous claims in this thread around the provision of F&B by other airlines.

South London Bon Viveur

Agree 100%. They could have done this differently. For example offering complimentary water, or tea and coffee as well. It would have been brand damaging, but mitigated because you can sell it to the wider public as maintaining some complimentary products whilst widening the choice of food available. Unfortunately they have gone in like a bull in a china shop, and come up with something disastrous.

HMPS

Let us hope they have enough Super Glue to put together the broken plats.

Flexible preferences

Looking at it purely from a logical and comparable perspective, I'm not sure I would agree this decision is worthy of ridicule. After all it is fairly common to see coffee and tea running at around £2 a cup. However the only difference is that it either has a teabag added, or been fed through with ground roasted coffee beans. Both of which probably cost about 5p. Psychologically it may well seem a rip off to be charged for hot water, but in actual fact you could argue the real costs are in service, logistics, buying, refuse disposal and cleaning, marketing, the paper cup, sleeve and lid (my guess being more expensive than the coffee or teabag). So all in all, I would expect to pay for hot water, and not worry about it. Even if there was an argument to say it should be free, I don't think the decision to charge for it is worthy of clowns, especially as it could deprive the airline of revenue as people could take their own teabag very easily.

orbitmic

But then you could see it the other purely logical and comparable point of view and I don't think there is anything psychological about that : same water tanks of tap water, pour from the cold tap: free, pour from the hot tap: pay. There is no difference between them in terms of service, logistics, cup or any of the other things you mention and in fact paper cups are slightly cheaper ahan plastic.

I effectively do not know a single place that claims to offer me cold tap water but makes me pay for hot one. So while your point is a welcome reminder of how tea and coffee are high profit items for restaurant, bars, and Bob airlines, to me that whole cold vs hot water distinction is wholly ridiculous and not for symbolic reasons but for logical and comparative ones based on what is, by far, the nearest existing process here.

corporate-wage-slave

I can clarify these ones.

Adria: Water and pretzel is offered free to all passengers, anything more is BOB, but that isn't pushed.

Croatia Airlines: This box is what you get on the longer sectors such as ZAG-LHR, it has a small pack of savoury olive oil biscuits, some dried figs and a few rinds of pancetta. Drinks free. On shorter sectors (such as ZAG-Sarajevo) it's still water and the biscuits, no box. BOB is present but not pushed.


LOT: Domestics and short hops: Prince Polo chocolate wafer bar and still water. If you are on the longer shorthaul services such as to London you can have tea or coffee and still/sparkling water, the Prince Polo and/or the Frugo fruit flavoured sweets. BOB is present, rarely pushed.

CSA Czech: They are quite like Brussels Airlines, in that they divvy up the economy fares into various buckets, and the small number of passengers on their top bucket Flex tickets get a snack and drink. They do push BOB, and you can also have a Business Class meal by paying for it in advance, Air Berlin style. Business Class itself isn't available on services under 3 hours, but they have plenty of services heading to the former USSR which does offer this cabin.

I think it's safe to say that none of these airlines will represent much competition to BA, in the case of Croatia and Adria their LHR and Manchester services respectively are among the longest flights they operate.

Flexible preferences

I totally respect your point of view, my point is not so much whether you are right, or I am right, but that the decision to charge for hot water isn't worthy of ridicule. It seems like a logical and valid decision that isn't that out there...after all I can't imagine ever going into Caffe Nero and asking for a cup of hot water and not expect to pay, nor for that matter at an outside coffee stall, or a pub or bar. It would seem a bit of a cheek to me, even though the difference is one tap to another tap.

I can assure you that everything we think and most of what we do is psychological Edited to add: Out of interest, why has this decision to move to BoB provoked such anger among customers including yourself? The provision of food and drink from an authority figure (in this case the crew) is hard-wired right back to our infancy when we were helpless in our cots and totally reliant on Mum to feed us. We can't see our unconscious, but there is something perhaps very personally uncomfortable for us when what was provided to us for free as we sit 'helpless' in our seat, now is no longer freely given and we must pay for it. Stuff around food and drink can be highly emotive Also, the introduction of money into this two way exchange can represent an Oedipal element but that is another whole ballpark...

orbitmic

See, that's where we differ: I actually can't imagine asking for a cup of hot water anywhere and expect to pay and I'm surprised that you do. With respect, I wonder if the operative part of your sentence above isn't: "I can't imagine ever going into Caffe Nero and asking for a cup of hot water". Am I wrong? Is it that you can think of yourself asking for it but would expect them to have a price for it? (and just a reminder that someone asking for hot water may well be ordering other paid for items).

PS: while only you can know if I am wrong on my interpretation of your point, I can assure you that you are wrong about Caffe Nero, restaurants and the like. As it happens, one of my default drinks when I happen to have a cold is either plain hot water or hot water with a bit of lemon, so those are things I have ended up ordering frequently when catching up with people in restaurants, bars, and indeed coffee chains, as well as airlines - both full service and BoB. I have never ever been made to pay for it in any of those cases.

Let's not play with words, you were the one claiming that your perspective was 'logical' and 'comparative' while mine, presumably was not. I merely pointed out that my point was just as logical and comparative as yours. Either both are or neither really, unless there is that difference between hot tap water and cold tap water that I have not seen but if it exists, you have not pointed it out to me.

As for why I find it ridiculous, again, I am not aware of any place or for that matter airline charging for hot tap water which is why I find this specific notification (or quite frankly, the fact that they would even consider that question) quite extraordinary (literally) and indeed ridiculous, just as I found it ridiculous when FR mentioned charging for toilet access (again, this costs airlines' money and in fact, in that particular case, unlike BA's hot water, there are precedents on the grounds).

Nice theory, but issues include wrong observation above the emotions involved (starting with: there are things making me angry in this world, this is not one of them, I'm sure it is the same for many others), wrong assumptions about the specificity of the dislike of the proposed measure (in my case, my reaction was exactly the same when BA started charging us for seat choice with basic fares, which has nothing to do with food, and also when they kept fuel surcharges that were supposed to disappear when the barrel price would go beyond x), and non-selection of relevant comparative cases (most of us are not criticising U2 or FR for charging for F&B).

I would point out to two different and in my view more credible explanations:

1) People usually do not enjoy paying more for things that they consume: I drink (mostly sparkling water!) and sometimes eat on flights and I fly BA just like I like choosing my seats, so I am not happy with BA telling me it will cost me significantly more to get those things (a few years ago and now respectively) so I express my dissatisfaction. Ticket prices will not decrease so it is just a net loss for me, just as when BA introduced a change fee on plus fares. By contrast, I don't usually check luggage so while I think that charging for those was a step towards low-costliness I didn't react much as it did not impact me.

2) As NickB very rightly pointed out in the other thread, 'has it ever occurred to [the person he was answering] that people may have different expectations for BA compared to FR or U2'. BA defined its own identity precisely on the offer of a superior service in recent year (see slice of lemon ad) and they now pretend that it still defines them whilst it clearly doesn't. It is a bit as when you know someone who speak really loud all the time and you hear them say that they really are far more discreet than others.

3) BA has a certain fundamentalism in their orientations. Despite your surprise, charging for hot water is simply unprecedented in the airline industry. I have the same remark with UA and hand luggage in their new basic fare (even though technically that is actually not unprecedented.

Flexible preferences

I confirm I would not ask for a cup of hot water without an expectation of paying for it, which I would do quite happily. I wouldn't feel entitled to a free cup of hot water, would feel I was putting the server in an awkward position and it would be impolite.

You make a point that often (not always I note) you would buy something else (as if that makes it OK), but on BA BoB I doubt that would be the case.

I never found your point of view illogical, or stated so, so I'm surprised you presumed I did, especially as you criticise me for making assumptions. I am simply pointing out that your remark about clowns and ridicule was in my opinion too much given a counter argument I presented. The name calling in your post seemed to me especially to be not warranted in this situation, and I didn't find the BA policy worthy of ridicule.

Fair enough my theory may not apply to you in this case, but it was also a general comment about the strength of feeling on this matter, and it was a discussion point rather than a fact. On the face of it, some feelings may run high in you about this given your frequent and very long posts on the matter, and your quite combative response. I'm a huge enthusiast for the human psyche and its workings, and sometimes when I see links to things said here I am very tempted to apply theory.

Concerto

Thanks very much for these clarifications. That all seems like not indecent catering for those short sectors. I very much liked the previous airberlin catering, where you got a basic snack plus water/juice/tea/coffee, with the option of purchasing more if you wanted it (which I sometimes did). But I found it woefully inadequate on longer flights, such as those to the Canaries. I also liked the single class concept on airberlin, with the possibility of purchasing semi decent hot meals from Sansibar (although I find Do&Co preorder much better).

I've just realized this is not the BoB thread (which is very interesting reading), but one about teabags. I have often used more than one teabag, because the quality of the teabags is so poor (think Lipton Yellow Label). I've never come across people policing teabags in Star Alliance or Skyteam lounges, although I do recall seeing CCTV cameras zeroed in on the drinks counter in the contract lounge at Nuremberg Airport.

In Scotland we used to hang them out on the washing line in order to use them again, so strong they were! But now, I feel I can afford to use a new teabag each time (reused ones taste like yesterday's socks anyway)!!

vibguy

This is fair but going along this line of thinking, BA should also charge for ice cubes (frozen water) and you should find that acceptable to.
The fact that BA is the only airline in the world charging for hot water and points to quality reasons is nevertheless a bit worrying : is the free potable tap water of less quality?
The other question I have concerns the temperature of this high quality hot water? If one wants a high quality tea the optimal water temperature required is different than that for a high quality coffee. Will BA provide hot water at different temperatures? The high price charged indicates that this might be the case.

orbitmic

Out of curiosity, how much would you expect to pay for a cup of hot wager at Caffe Nero, or to phrase it differently, how would you expect the till people at Caffe Nero (since you mentioned that place earlier, but it would also be valid for the rest) to charge you for the cup of hot water? I'm sure you are aware that there is no price for it in the price list, and that as a result they would not be entitled to incur a charge and would risk their job if they did. Making up a price as they go along, if that is indeed the expectation, is not a very realistic one in a real world outlet.

Of course, you could order 'a tea with the bag on the side' to fix your own price (that of a cup of tea), but that would be back to my earlier point about not expecting to ask for a cup of hot water per se.

I have no idea about where the 'expectation' bit comes from? I don't think anyone has to give you a cup of hot water anywhere so you wouldn't 'expect' it. You are just asking for something, like you might ask for a slice of lemon with your tea if you drink it the Central European way rather than the British one, ask the waiter if he has a peppermill if you don't like what comes out of shakers, or ask for ice cubes if you find your drink too warm. Every time, you may well 'hope' that this will be provided but 'expecting' it to be is a recipe for disappointment.

You make a very different point which you feel that asking for hot water would put the waiter in an awkward situation, which would be polite. I actually agree with you that putting a waiter in an awkward situation by asking something unreasonable would be impolite and inconsiderate. I personally do not agree that asking for a cup of hot water would fit that description. I personally consider that asking for water is not in and by itself inconsiderate, and whether it comes cold, hot, or iced into cubes does not make a difference in my personal perception. Again, maybe there is something about those temperature differences that speaks to you and to others, I make absolutely no judgement about that, but all I can say is that the difference is not manifest to me and therefore I would not act as though there was in my own value system which is all that I can use (and which, once again, could easily change if someone gives me a convincing rational explanation that there is indeed a difference that I should make; it wouldn't be the first time that people would give me reason to reconsider my perceptions and I'd be more than happy to).

Yes, it very much makes a difference in my view and indeed makes it ok to ask for the free things if you buy what the shop you are dealing with primarily intends to sell you as part of its trade. I wouldn't go to a bar or restaurant to only order something free (be it hot water, a glass of water, some ice cubes, some bread, or some salt and pepper), but I have no issue asking for those things once I respect the primary object of the establishment which is to sell me food or drink. Similarly, if a bar gives nuts or olives with drinks, I don't mind asking for the peanuts (or more likely the olives!) as long as I buy the drink, even if they also have a bar menu. In fact, I'll go further, and in restaurants, I never content myself with drinking tap water because I am aware that drinks are what restaurants make their profit on. So even though I do not drink bottled water as a matter of course, if I plan to only drink water with my restaurant meal, I'll order bottled water because that's what the game is.

On a plane, however, the primary purpose of the establishment is to sell you transportation and you have already bought that so no, I would not see it as an issue that people ask for water, be it hot or cold, if they do not plan to use the ancillary BoB, in just the same way that I do not see it as an issue that you want to choose your seat at OLCI if offered even if you do not plan to pay extra for an emergency exit. Similarly, while I would never go to a bar and only ask for ice cubes, I have no issue whatsoever 'only' getting ice cubes when I stay in a hotel even though there is a minibar which I may not plan to use.

My apologies if I misunderstood. Since you wrote: 'Looking at it purely from a logical and comparable perspective' I indeed assumed that this was implicitly opposed to an other perspective that would not be, but if you say that this was not the intention I'm certainly more than happy to take your word for that.

Yes, that's exactly (a far more concise and effective of) the point I was trying to make.

Flexible preferences

orbitmic I'll keep my post brief, as long posts can be so easily skipped.

Using Caffe Nero analogy as you wish, then why not do that then? It seems an entirely acceptable solution, given that a teabag is only worth 5p at most. Instead you wish to have all of the elements of the cup of tea product except the teabag, without paying for it. You'd like the near boiling water delivered from a machine that must be purchased, cleaned and serviced and uses electricity to heat the water. You'd like the cup and saucer and teaspoon, which must be collected, washed and put away, and breakages and losses regularly paid for. You'd perhaps some sugar or sweetener, and no doubt some napkins. You'd like to sit in a nice comfortable warm cafe which must be leased or purchased, with furniture that must be bought, and business taxes paid. But no, you don't see those as part of the product - and instead you would like all of these elements of your 'cup of hot water' for free.

What I'm showing is that there is an alternative credible point of view to yours, one that I happen to hold, and as such I would question that BA's policy is 'ridiculous' and the people who devised it are 'clowns'.