The Death Spiral of the Centurion Card
Dec 14, 2013, 6:03 am
#46
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,092
hello and i will try to clarify what i have experienced and been told by the gate personel when asking about being way down the list with lots of empty seats and not getting an upgrade. i am not savy as many on this board when it comes to terminology or even rules of many programs so maybe accidently saying some words wrong. also, my experience with delta is strictly domestic united states.
what i have seen, and been told by Delta employees at the gate is they look at who has paid the most for the economy ticket and from my understanding possibly cummulatively for the year. with Plat status on Delta i assumed it meant i was in front of gold etc. my status helps is true if tickets are equal, not true if i am on a lower cost economy fare from my experience. on the rare occasion i fly Delta (nothing wrong with the airline, they just are not my most flexible option most of the time) i buy some trips way ahead and get a relatively cheap fare price in economy and hoped to get the upgrade. someone who bought economy at a more recent and typically higher price (is this perhaps a y class ticket someone mentioned earlier??, here again not sure of my terminology) with a gold status will get the upgrade. i was kinda surprised and clarified with various people at Delta and with Centurion travel
also one other big surprise is that very few seats were "availble" or whatever they call it for upgrade even x many days out even with a lot of empty seats, because Delta staff told me they were saving them to sell at the gate. basically the upgrade price seems to be seen as extra revenue that would have been "wasted" on a free upgrade that someone with platinum status, as in my case, would have assumed would readily be available.
all the best
what i have seen, and been told by Delta employees at the gate is they look at who has paid the most for the economy ticket and from my understanding possibly cummulatively for the year. with Plat status on Delta i assumed it meant i was in front of gold etc. my status helps is true if tickets are equal, not true if i am on a lower cost economy fare from my experience. on the rare occasion i fly Delta (nothing wrong with the airline, they just are not my most flexible option most of the time) i buy some trips way ahead and get a relatively cheap fare price in economy and hoped to get the upgrade. someone who bought economy at a more recent and typically higher price (is this perhaps a y class ticket someone mentioned earlier??, here again not sure of my terminology) with a gold status will get the upgrade. i was kinda surprised and clarified with various people at Delta and with Centurion travel
also one other big surprise is that very few seats were "availble" or whatever they call it for upgrade even x many days out even with a lot of empty seats, because Delta staff told me they were saving them to sell at the gate. basically the upgrade price seems to be seen as extra revenue that would have been "wasted" on a free upgrade that someone with platinum status, as in my case, would have assumed would readily be available.
all the best
I won't deny that DL holds a lot of inventory for the gate to try to sell, but those seats should all be upgraded to if there are medallions on this list. The only thing to be aware of is that once you board the flight, you lose your chance to get an upgrade.
Dec 14, 2013, 6:17 am
#47
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: DTW
Programs: Amex Canada Centurion (and all the fixings)...and 20,000,000+ misc. points/miles to spend!
Posts: 153
This is not correct. For domestic flights, with the exception of Y (full fare economy, which clears at time of ticketing), upgrades clear by medallion status and then fare class. What that means is that all upgrades are awarded first to diamonds, then plats, then gold and then silver. However, within an elite status tier, upgrades clear by fare class (i.e. an expensive B fare will clear before a cheap X fare). So if you are a plat, you should clear before any gold except golds on Y class tickets.
I won't deny that DL holds a lot of inventory for the gate to try to sell, but those seats should all be upgraded to if there are medallions on this list. The only thing to be aware of is that once you board the flight, you lose your chance to get an upgrade.
I won't deny that DL holds a lot of inventory for the gate to try to sell, but those seats should all be upgraded to if there are medallions on this list. The only thing to be aware of is that once you board the flight, you lose your chance to get an upgrade.
Dec 14, 2013, 10:15 am
#48
Join Date: Sep 2011
Programs: AA SPG Amex
Posts: 4,644
In my mind, there were always three justifications for the Centurion, and each of the cardholders invariably fit one category:
1. Pure wallet candy
2. Careful calculation of benefit value and found it to exceed $2,500/yr
3. Use of the card for the ultra-upscale benefits, such as yacht and jet charter, where not only is the annual fee a drop in the bucket, but the benefits far exceed the fee (though the benefits are applied to things that most cardholders don't even think about purchasing)
I think that the recent devaluations have probably only impacted the second category: those who figured out that $2,500 up front was worth, say $3-10,000 on the back end. Those who'd stay at the Mandarin Oriental anyways or those who purchase multiple lounge memberships, for example. A friend told me that his dad's card would pay for itself each year when he went to NYC for a week and stayed at the Mandarin.
So those who carefully plan how to extract benefits are the ones getting screwed, but by the same token are probably the least profitable of the three for Amex (since the wallet candy folks never use many of the perks and the ultra-wealthy spend in such large blocks that the processing fees alone are quite substantial.
1. Pure wallet candy
2. Careful calculation of benefit value and found it to exceed $2,500/yr
3. Use of the card for the ultra-upscale benefits, such as yacht and jet charter, where not only is the annual fee a drop in the bucket, but the benefits far exceed the fee (though the benefits are applied to things that most cardholders don't even think about purchasing)
I think that the recent devaluations have probably only impacted the second category: those who figured out that $2,500 up front was worth, say $3-10,000 on the back end. Those who'd stay at the Mandarin Oriental anyways or those who purchase multiple lounge memberships, for example. A friend told me that his dad's card would pay for itself each year when he went to NYC for a week and stayed at the Mandarin.
So those who carefully plan how to extract benefits are the ones getting screwed, but by the same token are probably the least profitable of the three for Amex (since the wallet candy folks never use many of the perks and the ultra-wealthy spend in such large blocks that the processing fees alone are quite substantial.
Dec 14, 2013, 1:58 pm
#49
Join Date: Nov 2007
Programs: AA, AS, BA, DL Plat, Chase UR, Diners, UA, F9, WN, SPG Gold, HH Diamond, Amex MR.
Posts: 436
Originally, Centurion was a win-win-win. What I mean by this, is that I would have never stayed at brands like Mandarin Oriental, Waldorf Astoria or St. Regis prior to having the black card and associated benefits. Now they are my favorite hotels. I started going out of my way to fly on DL, CO & US because I had status. I've had some good experiences.
However dropping to only 1 airline status is the worst devaluation in my 5+ years as a card holder. I will probably cancel the card soon unless another major airline status is added.
Note: CSR promised me my US status would be valid until 2/28/2015.
I encourage all cardholders to call AMEX and politely make your views known. This just might help. The CSRs are taking lots of complaints right now, and they just might help you out a bit too.
However dropping to only 1 airline status is the worst devaluation in my 5+ years as a card holder. I will probably cancel the card soon unless another major airline status is added.
Note: CSR promised me my US status would be valid until 2/28/2015.
I encourage all cardholders to call AMEX and politely make your views known. This just might help. The CSRs are taking lots of complaints right now, and they just might help you out a bit too.
Dec 14, 2013, 8:44 pm
#50
Join Date: Dec 2010
Programs: Hilton Diamond, Marriott Titanium, Radisson Gold, Hyatt Globalist, M life Gold, IHG Spire
Posts: 918
In my mind, there were always three justifications for the Centurion, and each of the cardholders invariably fit one category:
1. Pure wallet candy
2. Careful calculation of benefit value and found it to exceed $2,500/yr
3. Use of the card for the ultra-upscale benefits, such as yacht and jet charter, where not only is the annual fee a drop in the bucket, but the benefits far exceed the fee (though the benefits are applied to things that most cardholders don't even think about purchasing)
I think that the recent devaluations have probably only impacted the second category: those who figured out that $2,500 up front was worth, say $3-10,000 on the back end. Those who'd stay at the Mandarin Oriental anyways or those who purchase multiple lounge memberships, for example. A friend told me that his dad's card would pay for itself each year when he went to NYC for a week and stayed at the Mandarin.
So those who carefully plan how to extract benefits are the ones getting screwed, but by the same token are probably the least profitable of the three for Amex (since the wallet candy folks never use many of the perks and the ultra-wealthy spend in such large blocks that the processing fees alone are quite substantial.
1. Pure wallet candy
2. Careful calculation of benefit value and found it to exceed $2,500/yr
3. Use of the card for the ultra-upscale benefits, such as yacht and jet charter, where not only is the annual fee a drop in the bucket, but the benefits far exceed the fee (though the benefits are applied to things that most cardholders don't even think about purchasing)
I think that the recent devaluations have probably only impacted the second category: those who figured out that $2,500 up front was worth, say $3-10,000 on the back end. Those who'd stay at the Mandarin Oriental anyways or those who purchase multiple lounge memberships, for example. A friend told me that his dad's card would pay for itself each year when he went to NYC for a week and stayed at the Mandarin.
So those who carefully plan how to extract benefits are the ones getting screwed, but by the same token are probably the least profitable of the three for Amex (since the wallet candy folks never use many of the perks and the ultra-wealthy spend in such large blocks that the processing fees alone are quite substantial.
Your breakdown of the broad groups of Centurion carriers is dead on. I'll bet the first group is the biggest these days. Amex gets bunches of people requesting a Centurion card. Not just in the US either. Lots of the Nouveau Riche in the third world are clamoring for the card, and apparently view the AF as just the cost of the bling. Lots of card carriers for whom the actual benefits are a secondary consideration.
The third group exists. I don't know how big it is, but I remember reading the story of the guy who had his Centurion concierge plan his daughter's entire wedding. For them, access to the USAir club is not why they carry the card.
Right now, Amex is probably weighing what new benefits would target each group. I don't know what's coming, but something's coming.
Dec 15, 2013, 12:57 am
#51
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 3,774
In my mind, there were always three justifications for the Centurion, and each of the cardholders invariably fit one category:
1. Pure wallet candy
2. Careful calculation of benefit value and found it to exceed $2,500/yr
3. Use of the card for the ultra-upscale benefits, such as yacht and jet charter, where not only is the annual fee a drop in the bucket, but the benefits far exceed the fee (though the benefits are applied to things that most cardholders don't even think about purchasing)
I think that the recent devaluations have probably only impacted the second category: those who figured out that $2,500 up front was worth, say $3-10,000 on the back end. Those who'd stay at the Mandarin Oriental anyways or those who purchase multiple lounge memberships, for example. A friend told me that his dad's card would pay for itself each year when he went to NYC for a week and stayed at the Mandarin.
So those who carefully plan how to extract benefits are the ones getting screwed, but by the same token are probably the least profitable of the three for Amex (since the wallet candy folks never use many of the perks and the ultra-wealthy spend in such large blocks that the processing fees alone are quite substantial.
1. Pure wallet candy
2. Careful calculation of benefit value and found it to exceed $2,500/yr
3. Use of the card for the ultra-upscale benefits, such as yacht and jet charter, where not only is the annual fee a drop in the bucket, but the benefits far exceed the fee (though the benefits are applied to things that most cardholders don't even think about purchasing)
I think that the recent devaluations have probably only impacted the second category: those who figured out that $2,500 up front was worth, say $3-10,000 on the back end. Those who'd stay at the Mandarin Oriental anyways or those who purchase multiple lounge memberships, for example. A friend told me that his dad's card would pay for itself each year when he went to NYC for a week and stayed at the Mandarin.
So those who carefully plan how to extract benefits are the ones getting screwed, but by the same token are probably the least profitable of the three for Amex (since the wallet candy folks never use many of the perks and the ultra-wealthy spend in such large blocks that the processing fees alone are quite substantial.
I think I've had many years where I probably did not get $2500 of calculated benefit, but appreciated the soft benefit and convenience of the airline status and, for example, Avis President's Club and Hilton Diamond. I don't fly enough to earn DL Plat or Star Gold on my own, but having those has been a plus during IRROPS and for lounge access, fast track, extra baggage, upgrades (especially DL SWUs for TATL flights).
Originally, Centurion was a win-win-win. What I mean by this, is that I would have never stayed at brands like Mandarin Oriental, Waldorf Astoria or St. Regis prior to having the black card and associated benefits. Now they are my favorite hotels. I started going out of my way to fly on DL, CO & US because I had status. I've had some good experiences.
However dropping to only 1 airline status is the worst devaluation in my 5+ years as a card holder. I will probably cancel the card soon unless another major airline status is added.
However dropping to only 1 airline status is the worst devaluation in my 5+ years as a card holder. I will probably cancel the card soon unless another major airline status is added.
I remember a few years ago there were online marketers writing about how to get spend up by churning Google Adsense through AmEx to get a Centurion invite.
Maybe AmEx is trying to reduce the ranks of Cent members in order to have better bargaining power with potential partners who might be amenable to giving status to a reduced number of people with proven high spend.
Dec 15, 2013, 2:40 am
#52
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA | CLT, formerly LHR & AMS (with just a bit of PSP)
Programs: BAEC Gold, Hilton Diamond, BonVoy Titanium, (soon former) Caesars7*, (former) Wynn Black, HR "Icon"
Posts: 8,172
Diamonds will have a choice of Global Upgrades, for international travel; but there is no equivalent for Platinum Medallions.
Also, don't really get the "eye-candy" aspect, as I never get a chance to hand my AMEX to anyone (when paying chip+PIN), with exception to checking into a hotel. So, that benefit, seems to be squarely US focused.
Dec 15, 2013, 4:48 am
#53
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 3,774
Thanks, I didn't realise that. I haven't flown DL recently because they dropped our preferred flight. I thought I still had the chance to select SWUs for my benefit last time I looked -- perhaps if it is still available for my 2013 benefit. If so, I better grab them for the last time and hope I get a chance to use them within the year.
Dec 15, 2013, 7:55 am
#54
Join Date: Sep 2011
Programs: AA SPG Amex
Posts: 4,644
In other cases, a still-single, 35-yr-old, financially-successful, socially-awkward douche bag walks into a night club and as a way to get the attention of the 22-yr-old, equally single, equally insecure, equally shallow women inside flashes his black Amex to prove that he's got $$.
Or maybe earlier in the evening, that same douche bag, who perhaps doesn't really have as much money as he wants people to think he does, is picking up drinks/dinner/etc. at a business function and wants the rest of the guys around to think he's a "big shot". I remember dealing with these when working in entertainment - guys who had black cards but didn't realize that the benefits were pretty worthless when they flew coach and could only get hotel rooms with two double beds since company partners would often share rooms...
Dec 15, 2013, 9:11 am
#55
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA | CLT, formerly LHR & AMS (with just a bit of PSP)
Programs: BAEC Gold, Hilton Diamond, BonVoy Titanium, (soon former) Caesars7*, (former) Wynn Black, HR "Icon"
Posts: 8,172
Thanks, I didn't realise that. I haven't flown DL recently because they dropped our preferred flight. I thought I still had the chance to select SWUs for my benefit last time I looked -- perhaps if it is still available for my 2013 benefit. If so, I better grab them for the last time and hope I get a chance to use them within the year.
Well, in some cases, a guy walks into a bar.
In other cases, a still-single, 35-yr-old, financially-successful, socially-awkward douche bag walks into a night club and as a way to get the attention of the 22-yr-old, equally single, equally insecure, equally shallow women inside flashes his black Amex to prove that he's got $$.
Or maybe earlier in the evening, that same douche bag, who perhaps doesn't really have as much money as he wants people to think he does, is picking up drinks/dinner/etc. at a business function and wants the rest of the guys around to think he's a "big shot". I remember dealing with these when working in entertainment - guys who had black cards but didn't realize that the benefits were pretty worthless when they flew coach and could only get hotel rooms with two double beds since company partners would often share rooms...
In other cases, a still-single, 35-yr-old, financially-successful, socially-awkward douche bag walks into a night club and as a way to get the attention of the 22-yr-old, equally single, equally insecure, equally shallow women inside flashes his black Amex to prove that he's got $$.
Or maybe earlier in the evening, that same douche bag, who perhaps doesn't really have as much money as he wants people to think he does, is picking up drinks/dinner/etc. at a business function and wants the rest of the guys around to think he's a "big shot". I remember dealing with these when working in entertainment - guys who had black cards but didn't realize that the benefits were pretty worthless when they flew coach and could only get hotel rooms with two double beds since company partners would often share rooms...
Dec 15, 2013, 8:30 pm
#56
Join Date: Sep 2011
Programs: AA SPG Amex
Posts: 4,644
I don't carry a Centurion card, so take what I write with a grain of salt.
Your breakdown of the broad groups of Centurion carriers is dead on. I'll bet the first group is the biggest these days. Amex gets bunches of people requesting a Centurion card. Not just in the US either. Lots of the Nouveau Riche in the third world are clamoring for the card, and apparently view the AF as just the cost of the bling. Lots of card carriers for whom the actual benefits are a secondary consideration.
The third group exists. I don't know how big it is, but I remember reading the story of the guy who had his Centurion concierge plan his daughter's entire wedding. For them, access to the USAir club is not why they carry the card.
Right now, Amex is probably weighing what new benefits would target each group. I don't know what's coming, but something's coming.
Your breakdown of the broad groups of Centurion carriers is dead on. I'll bet the first group is the biggest these days. Amex gets bunches of people requesting a Centurion card. Not just in the US either. Lots of the Nouveau Riche in the third world are clamoring for the card, and apparently view the AF as just the cost of the bling. Lots of card carriers for whom the actual benefits are a secondary consideration.
The third group exists. I don't know how big it is, but I remember reading the story of the guy who had his Centurion concierge plan his daughter's entire wedding. For them, access to the USAir club is not why they carry the card.
Right now, Amex is probably weighing what new benefits would target each group. I don't know what's coming, but something's coming.
As to your reference about the wedding planning concierge, I think this suggests something else too: that Amex views different cardholders of the Centurion card very differently. People who spend millions on extravagant things probably have a dedicated concierge who will do just about anything they request. On the other hand, that first group will simply have calls routed to the first available and the concierge won't likely offer much beyond what the Platinum concierge offers its customers.
Dec 18, 2013, 12:40 am
#57
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: FL
Programs: AAdvantage Elite Plat, HH Gold, SPG Gold, Hertz Gold, BA
Posts: 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by baccarat_king
Also, don't really get the "eye-candy" aspect, as I never get a chance to hand my AMEX to anyone (when paying chip+PIN), with exception to checking into a hotel. So, that benefit, seems to be squarely US focused.
Well, in some cases, a guy walks into a bar.
In other cases, a still-single, 35-yr-old, financially-successful, socially-awkward douche bag walks into a night club and as a way to get the attention of the 22-yr-old, equally single, equally insecure, equally shallow women inside flashes his black Amex to prove that he's got $$.
Or maybe earlier in the evening, that same douche bag, who perhaps doesn't really have as much money as he wants people to think he does, is picking up drinks/dinner/etc. at a business function and wants the rest of the guys around to think he's a "big shot". I remember dealing with these when working in entertainment - guys who had black cards but didn't realize that the benefits were pretty worthless when they flew coach and could only get hotel rooms with two double beds since company partners would often share rooms...
Originally Posted by baccarat_king
Also, don't really get the "eye-candy" aspect, as I never get a chance to hand my AMEX to anyone (when paying chip+PIN), with exception to checking into a hotel. So, that benefit, seems to be squarely US focused.
Well, in some cases, a guy walks into a bar.
In other cases, a still-single, 35-yr-old, financially-successful, socially-awkward douche bag walks into a night club and as a way to get the attention of the 22-yr-old, equally single, equally insecure, equally shallow women inside flashes his black Amex to prove that he's got $$.
Or maybe earlier in the evening, that same douche bag, who perhaps doesn't really have as much money as he wants people to think he does, is picking up drinks/dinner/etc. at a business function and wants the rest of the guys around to think he's a "big shot". I remember dealing with these when working in entertainment - guys who had black cards but didn't realize that the benefits were pretty worthless when they flew coach and could only get hotel rooms with two double beds since company partners would often share rooms...
That is just Darrin and Larry of Bewitched!
Anyway, I firmly believe that the top celebs are given the card, they wont even ask for it. I am pretty sure Beyonce or Madonna get it for free
Dec 20, 2013, 9:02 am
#58
Join Date: Jul 2005
Programs: co,ba,us,starwood,ua
Posts: 44
No MO free nights for Centurion in 2014?
I just spoke to Centurion Travel with regard to booking Mo BKK and MO HKG and was told that neither property will offer comp nights in 2014. She indicated that it was her understanding that no MO property would offer this benefit in 2014. To me, this a huge devaluation of Centurion benefits.
Dec 20, 2013, 12:24 pm
#59
Join Date: Oct 2005
Programs: DL 2MM PM;VSGld;EKGld; HilDia; HrtzPC; AvisPC; PP; AmbPlt; JumeiGld; MeliaPlt; TajPlt; ShangriDia
Posts: 953
I just spoke to Centurion Travel with regard to booking Mo BKK and MO HKG and was told that neither property will offer comp nights in 2014. She indicated that it was her understanding that no MO property would offer this benefit in 2014. To me, this a huge devaluation of Centurion benefits.