hoipolloi

How dare Air Canada decide to stop issuing refunds for the same issue (covid-19) overnight and refuse issuing rightful refunds?. Consumers are entitled to the refunds for flight cancelled by Air Canada, no matter what.

I say it's time to hit Air Canada hard and demand refunds by any means (charge back, small claims, ...) and punish it for its arrogance, nickle and diming and bad treatment of the average traveller during the years of travelling plenty.

mathemagic

That's going to be quite difficult with the courts closed for the time being. Unfortunately.

capedreamer

Not that I'm happy about the policy, but what if 'hitting them hard' just bankrupts the airline? All airlines are trying to conserve cash flow at this point to avert a liquidity (as opposed to solvency) crisis. Not customer friendly, but not reasonable from a business continuity perspective.

hoipolloi

Let them go bankrupt. Hopefully we'll end up with a few more smaller airlines competing for the benfit of consumers.

Plus, many consumers are losing their jobs and could use the money back from refunds to put food on the table.

EDIT: It still says here that one can request a refund:
https://www.aircanada.com/ca/en/aco/...ncelled-flight

supatight80

And many more people are going or will be bankrupt as well if this pandemic continues for months and months.

Any refund not given back to the customer for a cancelled flight is pretty much an interest free loan to the airline. A loan that could have been used to pay rent, bills, etc.

Imagine if it was a restaurant employee who spent his savings to buy a ticket to Europe and ended up being temporarily laid off. He definitely needs that money to pay off rent/food. But is told he can't have a refund for a flight that the airline cancelled.

capedreamer

I don't disagree with either of you. There are downstream implications on every part of the economy from this crisis. Many many companies and people will be hurt. Very few winners if any. So yes, if you take that attitude, then so be it, everyone for themselves and we'll see who can last the longest. I say this with no judgment.

supatight80

Well I don't think AC is having your best interests either.

Look at the new rules. AC cancels your flight. Flight purchased is 2000$. AC tells you you can use that credit for future use. But if your future flight is 1300$, you lose 700$.

At least they should have made it as a travelfund. Where any residual amount could be used for another ticket. But no...

tcook052

Let's please refrain from widening the discussion in this thread to all of the outbreak impacts rippling through our society and keep it focused on AC, it's operations or suspensions and effects to passengers.

tcook052
AC forum mod.

BML87

YVR-DEL and YYZ-DEL were added to the route suspension page. Last flights are today.

dkc192

Supervisor called back and was wholly unsympathetic and unhelpful. Apparently AC's interpretation of EC261 only covers AC flights; as my AC TATL flight hasn't yet been cancelled, she was unwilling to do anything.

FWIW, EC261 policies are on AC's site here: https://www.aircanada.com/ca/en/aco/...er-rights.html

Adam Smith

The second part of my post that you quoted wasn't in response to your post. EU261 clearly entitles you to a refund. My only advice to you was that I think it will be resolved more quickly by escalating it with AC than a chargeback. But you would have pretty legitimate grounds for a chargeback.

EDIT: I see that while I was typing this long post, you updated on your situation. What exactly was your itinerary? I'm pretty sure they're wrong, since I find it hard to envision how an LH flight wasn't covered by EU261, but would you mind giving the details?

The only person who's twisting words here is you. You said "I always thought people buy airline tickets for the service of being flown from point A to B at a specific date and time..."

I said nothing about a 5-minute delay. I asked about a 5-minute schedule change. If the airline changes the schedule by 5 minutes, you're no longer being flown "at a specific date and time". So, does that entitle you to a refund? By your rationale, it would, even though I think that we would all agree that isn't reasonable. What about if the airline was supposed to fly you from A to B via C, then changes the connection so that you're flying A to B via D, although still departing and arriving at the same date and time? I would argue that's a pretty meaningful change and should entitle one to change or potentially refund the booking, but under your "point A to B at a specific date and time" statement, they're still compliant with their obligation to you. You say that change of aircraft type doesn't matter, but what if it's mainline to regional (or vice versa), with the same times?

You're trying to take a very black-and-white approach to an issue that's more complex. As ​​​YEG USER has pointed out, schedule is not guaranteed, and that has been well argued over the years, because it's too complex a business. The question is what are the terms governing schedule changes and how they impact a passenger's rights. A detailed document is required to set that out, and that's where the tariff comes in. That's what spells out what you've actually bought when you purchased that flight, and whether or not the airline has failed "to deliver service".

Let's game this out. You initiate a chargeback with Amex, hypothetically, claiming they've failed to deliver the service because they cancelled the flight. AC believes the new policy is in accordance to the tariff, which you agreed to when you purchased the flight, and pushes back. They claim that they've offered you a travel credit, in accordance with the tariff, and that the chargeback is illegitimate. Now you've put Amex in the position of having to choose sides. Will they take the customer's side? Maybe. Or maybe their lawyers will look hard at it, especially if thousands of people are doing this all at once, and they decide the travel credit is in accordance with what you've purchased and deny the chargeback.

Are there other possible outcomes? Absolutely. AC might know that the new policy isn't something that holds no water, legally, and simply accept the chargeback. Or Amex could come down on the customer's side. But it's not a guaranteed success. And if Amex decides the chargeback was illegitimate, there could be negative consequences for the person initiating it (not terribly likely, but it's possible).

Nor does Canada have a law like EU261 that would help out the consumer in this case. APPR is primarily aimed at issues day of travel and is useless on this issue.

You've leapt to a conclusion about what I think of the policy. I don't like it and I don't think it's right.

Emotions are clearly running very high right now, with posts like yours and people talking about "hit[ting] Air Canada hard", but emotions are often not helpful when it comes to business matters. I've simply tried to approach this matter with logic and facts, because it's not always about what's "right" or "wrong", it's about the terms of the agreement and how best to resolve the dispute. I'm considering filing a claim with the Canadian Transportation Agency, which regulates AC and would be the primary arbiter of whether AC's tariff (or a policy deriving therefrom, such as the refunds vs credits issue) is reasonable or not, but thus far I've not been affected by it, and I'm not sure whether I have standing or not. But that's what I believe is likely the best way to get this mess sorted and get AC back to giving people refunds like it should.

If your preferred method is to file a chargeback, as I've stated above, you and anyone else who wants to do that is more than free to do so, and I actually wish you luck. I just don't think it's the sure thing that people around FT often think it is.

YYJMSP

But why is AC still happily selling tickets for those routes?

Stranger

Because they need the cash?

Seriously, silos. Left hand does not know what the right hand is doing. Just like the amadeus migration. Which worked wonderfully well. But left all the tools hanging on RES-III boken. Of course no one had thought about that. Nor that call centers would get flooded. Different people in charge, each of whom optimizes his own little word without looking at the bigger picture.

dkc192

Sure. It was LAX-YYZ-FRA-BRU; PMI-MUC-YYZ-LAX. PMI-MUC has been cancelled according to the AC PNR. MUC-YYZ is no longer showing up in the GDS but the cancellation hasn't been reflected in the PNR yet. LAX-YYZ and YYZ-LAX have had schedule changes that show in the GDS but not the PNR.

How would you recommend I "escalate" at AC? The supervisor did seem familiar with AC's internal EC261 policy (per my web link a few posts up), but she also directed me to contact customer relations, implying that reservations agents do not handle matters to do with EC261. But maybe this stance will change with a different agent and/or once the AC PNR actually reflects the cancelled MUC-YYZ.

Stranger

I suspect f the PNR has not been updated these folks whom you sleak to go by the rule that the flights still exists. They are not in the GDS is not relevant from their perspective. Anyway, waiting for a couple of days might help.