Last edit by: 24left
Jan 18 2021 TC issues Airworthiness Directive for the 737 MAX
Link to post https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/32976892-post4096.html
Cabin photos
Post 976 https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/29534462-post976.html
Post 1300 https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/29780203-post1300.html
Cabin Layout
Interior Specs can be found here https://www.aircanada.com/ca/en/aco/home/fly/onboard/fleet.html
- Window seats may feel narrower to come as the armrests are placed "into" the "curvature" of the cabin.
- Seats with no windows feel even more narrower as there is no space created by the curvature of window.
- All bulkhead seats have very limited legroom.
- Seats 15A, 16A, 16F, 17A and 17F have limited windows.
- Exit rows 19 and 20 have more legroom than regular preferred seats.
Routes
The 737 MAX is designated to replace the A320-series. Based on announcements and schedule updates, the following specific routes will be operated by the 737 MAX in future:
YYZ-LAX (periodic flights)
YYZ-SNN (new route)
YUL-DUB (new route)
YYZ/YUL-KEF (replacing Rouge A319)
YYT-LHR (replacing Mainline A319)
YHZ-LHR (replacing Mainline B767)
Hawaii Routes YVR/YYC (replacing Rouge B767)
Many domestic trunk routes (YYZ, YVR, YUL, YYC) now operated by 7M8, replacing A320 family
Link to post https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/32976892-post4096.html
Cabin photos
Post 976 https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/29534462-post976.html
Post 1300 https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/29780203-post1300.html
Cabin Layout
Interior Specs can be found here https://www.aircanada.com/ca/en/aco/home/fly/onboard/fleet.html
- Window seats may feel narrower to come as the armrests are placed "into" the "curvature" of the cabin.
- Seats with no windows feel even more narrower as there is no space created by the curvature of window.
- All bulkhead seats have very limited legroom.
- Seats 15A, 16A, 16F, 17A and 17F have limited windows.
- Exit rows 19 and 20 have more legroom than regular preferred seats.
Routes
The 737 MAX is designated to replace the A320-series. Based on announcements and schedule updates, the following specific routes will be operated by the 737 MAX in future:
YYZ-LAX (periodic flights)
YYZ-SNN (new route)
YUL-DUB (new route)
YYZ/YUL-KEF (replacing Rouge A319)
YYT-LHR (replacing Mainline A319)
YHZ-LHR (replacing Mainline B767)
Hawaii Routes YVR/YYC (replacing Rouge B767)
Many domestic trunk routes (YYZ, YVR, YUL, YYC) now operated by 7M8, replacing A320 family
Air Canada Selects Boeing 737 MAX to Renew Mainline Narrowbody Fleet
#3121
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Was the MAX what airlines wanted?
the problem for Boeing was that Bombardier was launching the C-Series. Airbus recognized both a threat and an opportunity and launched the Neo at very low R&D cost. AA among others wanted that.
Boeing faced a difficult conundrum. Do they develop a clean-sheet design that would be more efficient and would leapfrog the Neo but take 4-5 years longer to design, thereby leaving the NG (Boeing’s bread and butter) severely exposed to an aircraft with far better economics or do they simply follow Airbus with an expectation of retaining same market share split.
Boeing has a very conservative corporate culture that focuses on returning cash to shareholders. The low-risk choice was to follow what Airbus was doing. A clean sheet design not only left them vulnerable for too long but would likely use the same generation of engines as the Neo, so would only be marginally more efficient unless Boeing were to go to composites, which it has never done at that kind of volume. A new composite plane would be more efficient but also far more expensive to build and amortize the development costs. I think Boeing was having a hard time making the numbers work.
What they missed (besides the MCAS problems) was the move by the market to larger narrow bodies, where the A321 has a significant advantage over the original MAX-9 and the -10.
Boeing faced a difficult conundrum. Do they develop a clean-sheet design that would be more efficient and would leapfrog the Neo but take 4-5 years longer to design, thereby leaving the NG (Boeing’s bread and butter) severely exposed to an aircraft with far better economics or do they simply follow Airbus with an expectation of retaining same market share split.
Boeing has a very conservative corporate culture that focuses on returning cash to shareholders. The low-risk choice was to follow what Airbus was doing. A clean sheet design not only left them vulnerable for too long but would likely use the same generation of engines as the Neo, so would only be marginally more efficient unless Boeing were to go to composites, which it has never done at that kind of volume. A new composite plane would be more efficient but also far more expensive to build and amortize the development costs. I think Boeing was having a hard time making the numbers work.
What they missed (besides the MCAS problems) was the move by the market to larger narrow bodies, where the A321 has a significant advantage over the original MAX-9 and the -10.
#3122
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The Airbus 320 series was designed in the 1980s with the day 1 assumption that they would be fly-by-wire, with the computers flying the plane, pilots along to make suggestions to the computer. The NEO is the second major revision (classic and CEO before).
The 737 was designed in the 60s, with virtually no electronic automation. Th MAX was to be 3rd major revision (after original, classic, next generation).
Airbus was obviously already designing the NEO when the announced it. Boeing was designing a clean sheet platform at the time.
Boeing had made a corporate decision the 737 line was over. The NEO (or at least, something) should not have surprised them, but apparently the timing did. Their "conservative" culture responded by scrapping the in-progress clean sheet design and tweaking the 737 into the MAX.
Maybe the napkin design goals of the MAX were "half a generation"? And projected to be fast and low risk? I don't know, Ive not seen that napkin. But obviously they chose to reboot the 737 program rather than finish the clean sheet design.
That choice was driven exclusively by commercial concerns.
#3123
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Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: YYC
Posts: 23,808
the problem for Boeing was that Bombardier was launching the C-Series. Airbus recognized both a threat and an opportunity and launched the Neo at very low R&D cost. AA among others wanted that.
Boeing faced a difficult conundrum. Do they develop a clean-sheet design that would be more efficient and would leapfrog the Neo but take 4-5 years longer to design, thereby leaving the NG (Boeing’s bread and butter) severely exposed to an aircraft with far better economics or do they simply follow Airbus with an expectation of retaining same market share split.
Boeing has a very conservative corporate culture that focuses on returning cash to shareholders. The low-risk choice was to follow what Airbus was doing. A clean sheet design not only left them vulnerable for too long but would likely use the same generation of engines as the Neo, so would only be marginally more efficient unless Boeing were to go to composites, which it has never done at that kind of volume. A new composite plane would be more efficient but also far more expensive to build and amortize the development costs. I think Boeing was having a hard time making the numbers work.
Boeing faced a difficult conundrum. Do they develop a clean-sheet design that would be more efficient and would leapfrog the Neo but take 4-5 years longer to design, thereby leaving the NG (Boeing’s bread and butter) severely exposed to an aircraft with far better economics or do they simply follow Airbus with an expectation of retaining same market share split.
Boeing has a very conservative corporate culture that focuses on returning cash to shareholders. The low-risk choice was to follow what Airbus was doing. A clean sheet design not only left them vulnerable for too long but would likely use the same generation of engines as the Neo, so would only be marginally more efficient unless Boeing were to go to composites, which it has never done at that kind of volume. A new composite plane would be more efficient but also far more expensive to build and amortize the development costs. I think Boeing was having a hard time making the numbers work.
No argument there. But to add, they waited too long, first about starting a clean sheet design, which they could have done in a timely manner but would have dented the 737 line. Then when they followed the AB lead, while the neo is a relatively easy and straightforward extension to the 320 line, the 737 had already been pushed way beyond what the aging design was worth. So they promised asuming they could deliver. Turned out the wishful thinking did not work.
What they missed (besides the MCAS problems) was the move by the market to larger narrow bodies, where the A321 has a significant advantage over the original MAX-9 and the -10.
Not sure that is directly related to the issue at hand though. Airbus probably was every bit as surprised albeit pleasantly one would think. But also, in the fight between Airbus and Boeing, it's starting to look like Airbus won the prize by having been able to acquire the CSeries program, which is starting to look like it will be the killer of the older relatively short single aisle models. Because it's a fresh clean sheet model, and perhaps because it's 3-2 vs. 3-3. However, coming back to Boeing, the A321XLR is more significant in relation to the MMA plan. Which it may well kill, because it's starting to look like the XLR may well be nearly ideal for around half the potential MMA market. With the other half not large enough to justify the upfront cost of a clean sheet design. So the "conservativeness" and short term perspective of the bean counters is starting to hit the Boeing bread and butter pretty bad. Precisely what the doctor ordered for the bean counters I guess. :-)
#3124
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And correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Boeing essentially facilitate (force?) this acquisition by triggering a trade dispute over Canadian government subsidies to Bombardier? In which case, serves Boeing right ...
#3125
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#3126
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Good article on the MAX and the MCAS woes that may help clarify the issues Boeing is addressing. Interestingly the author is an engineer who writes for the financial industry. About a 10-minute read
https://seekingalpha.com/article/428...ers-view?ifp=0
His conclusions are that Boeing screwed up the design of the software but that the aircraft will be fundamentally safe once the MCAS fix is finalized and approved.
https://seekingalpha.com/article/428...ers-view?ifp=0
His conclusions are that Boeing screwed up the design of the software but that the aircraft will be fundamentally safe once the MCAS fix is finalized and approved.
#3127
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7M8 test flight - FIN524 (C-GEJL)
C-GEJL took off from YUL @ 12:57 EDT today with TCCA representatives on-board.
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/CGEJL
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/CGEJL
#3128
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7M8 test flight - FIN524 (C-GEJL) cont'd
YUL - YYB section complete, now on its way to YVO.
Here's to hoping all FTPs are being executed according to plan and the expected results are achieved. ^
Here's to hoping all FTPs are being executed according to plan and the expected results are achieved. ^
#3130
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#3132
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One would assume that if Transport Canada officials are on this flight it is some sort of demonstration for them being done by Air Canada and or Boeing.
#3133
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Exactly. I can't imagine why TC would bother if nothing had been changed.
#3134
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Thanks Fiordland. I was just surprised that Boeing might install an unapproved (as yet) solution in a non Boeing-owned airframe, and would instead conduct such demonstrations in their own aircraft. Perhaps it's logistically easier to use the local aircraft in each of the jurisdictions Boeing reps visit on their travelling road (air) show.
#3135
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Rumored to take 2-3 months after fix is formally submitted to FAA for them to sign off. Plus who knows how long for other regulators. I'd say Q1 or Q2 2020.