Is this United's new business class layout?
Mar 12, 2016, 8:53 am
#166
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 3,361
Agreed, and UA will be competing with BA in terms of hard product with this layout. Having just flown the BA product on an A380, I can tell you I'll take the AA 777W product hands down. The BA seat is narrow (20"), cramped, not at all private, and if you have an aisle seat meal trays are passed over you to be handed to the passenger (through the slide up separator) in the middle or window seats.
This layout to me isn't new or novel, much like everything UA does, it's just a Johnny come lately, copy of something someone else has had for a long time.
Competing in the real world for paying business class passengers with this layout? Not bloody likely. BA is much maligned for this layout.
Anecdotal story: On that BA flight, my seat mate was a grandmother who lived in London, and flies to LA about twice a year to see the grand kids. So, not a "flyertalk" type, and not what many of us arrogant road warriors would call a savvy flier. Her comment was that it was "awkward" she didn't like facing her seat mate so intimately, she hated having trays passed over her, and she felt cramped (she was a small woman at that). It was the first time she'd flown BA on the route having previously always gone on Virgin. I asked why she didn't this time, and she said BA was $2,000 less, so she thought she'd give it a try. For a savings of $2,000 she said she'd do it again, but if the price differential is less than $1K she'd stick with Virgin.
All that said bocostephen had is most right with this: "This thread is like screaming for a box of chocolates, and then when we get it, start screaming that it isn't Godiva. We are not Godiva clientele, we are See's clientele, and for that reason, this new product is actually better than we could hope for."
For United's clientele this layout will probably do just fine, just as DL's cramped J product gets rave reviews here on flyertalk as well (why, I have no idea).
So there you have it, UA will compete with BA and other mass market See's chocolate clientele carriers in the price leader discount business class market.
This layout to me isn't new or novel, much like everything UA does, it's just a Johnny come lately, copy of something someone else has had for a long time.
Competing in the real world for paying business class passengers with this layout? Not bloody likely. BA is much maligned for this layout.
Anecdotal story: On that BA flight, my seat mate was a grandmother who lived in London, and flies to LA about twice a year to see the grand kids. So, not a "flyertalk" type, and not what many of us arrogant road warriors would call a savvy flier. Her comment was that it was "awkward" she didn't like facing her seat mate so intimately, she hated having trays passed over her, and she felt cramped (she was a small woman at that). It was the first time she'd flown BA on the route having previously always gone on Virgin. I asked why she didn't this time, and she said BA was $2,000 less, so she thought she'd give it a try. For a savings of $2,000 she said she'd do it again, but if the price differential is less than $1K she'd stick with Virgin.
All that said bocostephen had is most right with this: "This thread is like screaming for a box of chocolates, and then when we get it, start screaming that it isn't Godiva. We are not Godiva clientele, we are See's clientele, and for that reason, this new product is actually better than we could hope for."
For United's clientele this layout will probably do just fine, just as DL's cramped J product gets rave reviews here on flyertalk as well (why, I have no idea).
So there you have it, UA will compete with BA and other mass market See's chocolate clientele carriers in the price leader discount business class market.
I would point out that while VA's seat has some appealing qualities, it doesn't help the airline make more money or even survive in one of the most lucrative travel markets in the world.
Mar 12, 2016, 9:38 am
#167
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: United 1K
Posts: 360
As much as people criticize UA for having 2-4-2 seating, lie flat seating was something very few airlines had at the time when it rolled out. Back in 2008: Singapore, Lufthansa, and KLM's weggi seats were no match for UA's lie flat.
Mar 12, 2016, 9:45 am
#168
Suspended
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People always have short memories...and a complete inability to compare experiences on multiple airlines. Most people who whine about an airline tend to fly few other airlines with which to compare/contrast. Whining therefore happens in a pitiful vacuum of ignorance...or from a time long gone.
I don't love UA...but I know UA BF is a fine hard product. If I want aisle access, I simply choose one of the middle seats in the 2-2-2 cabin--not exactly a tough detail. People who whine about UA not having ALL-aisle access are the same people whining about lack of premium award/upgrade inventory for the 1-2-1 airlines with fewer business class seating.
Everyone seems to love AA's business class. I think it's fine...but I don't like it more than UA's. At 6'2", I find the AA seat to be fairly claustrophobic and tight. I'll gladly sacrifice the faux privacy of AA business for UA's more open/less private but more roomy feeling BF.
Mar 12, 2016, 10:20 am
#169
Join Date: Dec 2014
Programs: GS, Marriott Titanium LT, IHG Gold, Hilton Gold
Posts: 66
I like the layout, it is a big improvement and addresses my major concerns. We'll have to see what the exact dimensions and materials are to pass final judgement. I am cautiously optimistic. UA has been making notable improvements.
Mar 12, 2016, 10:33 am
#170
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: NYC (Primarily EWR)
Programs: UA 1K / *G, Marriott Bonvoy Gold; Avis PC
Posts: 9,010
That said, your point is well-taken and on point. What I would furthermore add is that UA clearly is moving away from GF (which is more spacious)...clearly they want to maximize the density at the front of the plane while still offering a product that provides for everything flyers want / expect when flying in J. On this, it does seem like they have delivered.
Obviously, the test will come when we can actually try the seats for ourselves. As someone who is 5'6", I won't be complaining one bit about the space, but I do hope that the footwells are a little wider than the sCO ones, which are a bit on the narrow side.
Mar 12, 2016, 10:55 am
#171
Join Date: Apr 2008
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Chances are the seats will be so narrow as to be claustrophobic. I don't understand why anyone, given the choice, would fly this configuration over American or most foreign airlines. It's not like the service and food make up for the discomfort.
Mar 12, 2016, 11:04 am
#172
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2001
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Mar 12, 2016, 11:10 am
#173
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Morris County, NJ
Programs: UA 1K/*G, Avis Pres, Marriott Plat
Posts: 2,305
United flies where I have to go, when I have to get there, non-stop almost anywhere, from a hub that's ~25 minutes from my home.
Those factors alone mean that I don't even bother considering other airlines.
I'm a domestic road warrior - for the few times a year (max) that I fly a leisure route internationally, it'll be on United.
There may be some minor nits (and, truly, the layout of the tray table is a minor nit) that I could spend hours cross-comparing, but it's just not worth the time or trouble.
United's BF product is good enough for me. I'm happy with it, happy with the service, and they give me zero reason to look elsewhere. I know what I'm getting, and it's OK with me.
Guess I'm just not sophisticated enough, but the simplicity of my life by consolidating on a single airline is worth a lot more to me than whether it's this-or-that crappy wine mid-flight.
I'm just a simpleton, I guess.
Mar 12, 2016, 11:35 am
#174
Join Date: Jul 2005
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Posts: 2,509
Also schedule and having pre-check on UA are also trade-offs I rather have than book a cook. But there are choices and everyone has their own preferences.
Mar 12, 2016, 11:49 am
#175
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: NYC / TYO / Up in the Air
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Just so you know NH and SQ have wifi now - and yes it's more expensive (but not ridiculous) than UA is now and they do limit total data - but it's really fast and works reliably. IIRC paid $12.99 from HKG to NRT and had zero issues - but I wasn't trying to stream a movie or anything...
Mar 12, 2016, 11:53 am
#176
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: NYC (Primarily EWR)
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Posts: 9,010
Do folks think that this new configuration will make it on to the 789s that were subbed in, along with 77Ws, for the 787-10 order?
Mar 12, 2016, 1:33 pm
#177
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The existing claustrophobic LFBF window seats plus the diagram of the supposed new seats would get you there.
It's hard to believe they'd continue installing the decade-old product they're doing now, but this looks like it would be very tight on a 787; even BA's much maligned config is only 7 abreast there. Also they may be resource limited on the certification side and choose to prioritize the 77W seat before the 787 seat.
Mar 12, 2016, 1:58 pm
#178
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: NYC / TYO / Up in the Air
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I guess I'd ask all the UA apologists here if the UA new J was so good why the need to defend/justify/explain why we should all be happy with what is not only an inferior product today - but will be for the next decade?
The folks here on FT are tough and demanding customers I'll give you that - but that doesn't mean they are wrong - UA has chosen its course - High density low value - just accept it for what it is and stop trying to make it seem competitive - it's clearly NOT.... So now not only is soft product inferior - so is hard product - hard to justify those facts....
The folks here on FT are tough and demanding customers I'll give you that - but that doesn't mean they are wrong - UA has chosen its course - High density low value - just accept it for what it is and stop trying to make it seem competitive - it's clearly NOT.... So now not only is soft product inferior - so is hard product - hard to justify those facts....
Mar 12, 2016, 2:10 pm
#179
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: NYC (Primarily EWR)
Programs: UA 1K / *G, Marriott Bonvoy Gold; Avis PC
Posts: 9,010
I guess I'd ask all the UA apologists here if the UA new J was so good why the need to defend/justify/explain why we should all be happy with what is not only an inferior product today - but will be for the next decade?
The folks here on FT are tough and demanding customers I'll give you that - but that doesn't mean they are wrong - UA has chosen its course - High density low value - just accept it for what it is and stop trying to make it seem competitive - it's clearly NOT.... So now not only is soft product inferior - so is hard product - hard to justify those facts....
The folks here on FT are tough and demanding customers I'll give you that - but that doesn't mean they are wrong - UA has chosen its course - High density low value - just accept it for what it is and stop trying to make it seem competitive - it's clearly NOT.... So now not only is soft product inferior - so is hard product - hard to justify those facts....
It comes down to what people are valuing from it. If you want more private space, I doubt this is going to satisfy folks. But I don't care about having an excessive/more-than-necessary amount of personal space, along with space to store every last thing...I care if it's comfortable. And I imagine that for people who are saying that it looks good now - their opinion will change if they try the hard product and it's like sleeping on wooden slats.
Mar 12, 2016, 2:14 pm
#180
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: NYC / TYO / Up in the Air
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I don't think folks are being apologists - I would venture to say that all of us here are purely speculating on a leaked FA map, as well as guesses as to what the setup will be based on publicly available schematics. As I said earlier, I don't have an issue with the layout and density, but if it's a rock-hard lie-flat? Yeah, then it would be a problem.
It comes down to what people are valuing from it. If you want more private space, I doubt this is going to satisfy folks. But I don't care about having an excessive/more-than-necessary amount of personal space, along with space to store every last thing...I care if it's comfortable.
It comes down to what people are valuing from it. If you want more private space, I doubt this is going to satisfy folks. But I don't care about having an excessive/more-than-necessary amount of personal space, along with space to store every last thing...I care if it's comfortable.