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UA Orders Boeing 777-300ERs / 77Ws w/ 1-2-1 Polaris Business, 3-4-3 Economy

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Old Dec 9, 2016, 11:15 am
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UA Orders Boeing 777-300ERs / 77Ws w/ 1-2-1 Polaris Business, 3-4-3 Economy

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Old Apr 27, 2015, 10:17 am
  #301  
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Originally Posted by andrewwm
It is only 10 772s being converted. The 747 retirement schedule was already fixed before the 777-300ER decision was made, so I don't think they are filling in for them. Especially since they will likely be based at EWR, which currently has no 747 ops.

The A35J is the plane that will fill in for the 747 retirements, those start to come on property in 2018.
But presumably the 77Ws will replace (either directly or indirectly) sUA 772s, which can then be shifted to ORD or SFO to replace the departing 744s.
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Old Apr 27, 2015, 10:27 am
  #302  
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Originally Posted by Kacee
But presumably the 77Ws will replace (either directly or indirectly) sUA 772s, which can then be shifted to ORD or SFO to replace the departing 744s.
It doesn't sound like that to me. It sounds like they want to use the planes to actually increase domestic capacity on heavily traveled routes.
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Old Apr 27, 2015, 10:46 am
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Originally Posted by Kacee
But presumably the 77Ws will replace (either directly or indirectly) sUA 772s, which can then be shifted to ORD or SFO to replace the departing 744s.
Why would they do that? The 772s have way less capacity than the 747s and even less than the 787-9s. Not to mention the route holes that develop from referring/moving to domestic the 772 non ER frames.

Simplest explanation: remove 10 772s to domestic, replace with 10 773s, using in places that could use the increased capacity over a 772.
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Old Apr 27, 2015, 10:51 am
  #304  
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Originally Posted by Kacee
But presumably the 77Ws will replace (either directly or indirectly) sUA 772s, which can then be shifted to ORD or SFO to replace the departing 744s.
But there's no sUA 772 at EWR, where the 77W are reportedly going. So they'd shift some sCO 772 out of EWR, maybe to the lower yielding markets from SFO/LAX/DEN/ORD/IAD.
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Old Apr 27, 2015, 10:57 am
  #305  
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Originally Posted by mduell
But there's no sUA 772 at EWR, where the 77W are reportedly going. So they'd shift some sCO 772 out of EWR, maybe to the lower yielding markets from SFO/LAX/DEN/ORD/IAD.
Yes there is - BRU. And FRA has gone up and down from the 764 to the 772 (both UA and CO).
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Old Apr 27, 2015, 11:03 am
  #306  
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Originally Posted by andrewwm
Why would they do that? The 772s have way less capacity than the 747s and even less than the 787-9s. Not to mention the route holes that develop from referring/moving to domestic the 772 non ER frames.
Are you saying they are simply going to drop routes altogether when they start retiring 744s before the 350s come on line?

Also, your math is off. The 789 carries 252 pax; the sUA 772s carry 266 or 269 pax.

Originally Posted by mduell
But there's no sUA 772 at EWR, where the 77W are reportedly going. So they'd shift some sCO 772 out of EWR, maybe to the lower yielding markets from SFO/LAX/DEN/ORD/IAD.
But they do fly the sUA 772s ex-EWR; presumably those could be shifted to fly routes ex-SFO or ORD? Or (as you suggest) they shift the sCO 772s to other hubs, thus freeing up sUA 772s? Basic idea is they would somehow free up sUA 772s so they don't have to cancel routes when they start pulling the 744s from service.
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Old Apr 27, 2015, 11:10 am
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Originally Posted by Kacee
Are you saying they are simply going to drop routes altogether when they start retiring 744s before the 350s come on line?
The 747 fleet already has a lot of slack scheduled into it. If they retire 3-4 747s before the first A350 come online, they'll probably have to convert one route to some combination of 787-9, 773, or 772.

But they do fly the sUA 772s ex-EWR; presumably those could be shifted to fly routes ex-SFO or ORD? Or (as you suggest) they shift the sCO 772s to other hubs, thus freeing up sUA 772s? Basic idea is they would somehow free up sUA 772s so they don't have to cancel routes when they start pulling the 744s from service.
Whichever way you look at it, removing 772s from international service as a 1 for 1 swap with 773s does nothing to overall fleet size. It's the 787-9s where the international fleet growth is happening, UA is scheduled to get another 5 of those, I believe, this year plus another 5 next year.
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Old Apr 27, 2015, 11:30 am
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Originally Posted by Kacee
But presumably the 77Ws will replace (either directly or indirectly) sUA 772s, which can then be shifted to ORD or SFO to replace the departing 744s.
The 77Ws appear to be replacing non-ER pmUA 772s, which won't be able to replace 744s because they lack the range.

If your point is they can take the pmCO 772s now used out of EWR to replace 744s, perhaps, but that would be using pmCO planes on UA routes, and would be a downguage.
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Old Apr 27, 2015, 11:39 am
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Originally Posted by drewguy
If your point is they can take the pmCO 772s now used out of EWR to replace 744s, perhaps, but that would be using pmCO planes on UA routes, and would be a downguage.
Technically it's still PMUA planes, but UA still replace 744s with 77Es on SFO/LAX-SYD. That capacity loss was only backfilled when LAX-MEL nonstop was introduced. SFO-KIX was even more drastic - went from 744 to 788 overnight.

As much as LAX-SYD is begging for the capability of the 77W over the 77E, I think UA would keep it as a 3-class 77E just to keep Mr. UA1FLYER happy.
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Old Apr 27, 2015, 12:33 pm
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Originally Posted by SFOflyer33
Technically it's still PMUA planes, but UA still replace 744s with 77Es on SFO/LAX-SYD. That capacity loss was only backfilled when LAX-MEL nonstop was introduced. SFO-KIX was even more drastic - went from 744 to 788 overnight.

As much as LAX-SYD is begging for the capability of the 77W over the 77E, I think UA would keep it as a 3-class 77E just to keep Mr. UA1FLYER happy.
Where would the pmUA 772-ER planes come from? They're already on routes - this purchase won't make any more 3-class 772ER planes or free any up.
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Old Apr 27, 2015, 12:40 pm
  #311  
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Originally Posted by drewguy
Where would the pmUA 772-ER planes come from? They're already on routes - this purchase won't make any more 3-class 772ER planes or free any up.
I was responding to your previous comment that implied a negative connotation when transitioning from a 744 to a 77E. I was providing examples that it has been done before.

Another possibility would be 2-class 77W going on EWR-HKG, freeing up 2-class PMCO 77E to be placed on either ORD-HKG or SFO-SYD.
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Old Apr 27, 2015, 12:43 pm
  #312  
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Originally Posted by drewguy
Where would the pmUA 772-ER planes come from? They're already on routes - this purchase won't make any more 3-class 772ER planes or free any up.
Fleet management is obviously a complex business, but they could, for example, shift sCO 772s onto routes currently served by sUA 772ERs, thus freeing up the sUA aircraft for redeployment. They're already using sCO widebodies for many long-haul routes out of the pmUA hubs.
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Old Apr 27, 2015, 1:07 pm
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Originally Posted by SFOflyer33
I was responding to your previous comment that implied a negative connotation when transitioning from a 744 to a 77E. I was providing examples that it has been done before.

Another possibility would be 2-class 77W going on EWR-HKG, freeing up 2-class PMCO 77E to be placed on either ORD-HKG or SFO-SYD.
Due to the continuing struggles of the sUA PW 777s on routes such as ORD-HKG, SFO/LAX-SYD, it would be reasonable to think these routes will shift to sCO GE 777s. The 77W, especially with the new PIP, is still a much better aircraft for these routes than sCO 777s but management seems content with waiting for the A350-1000. EWR-HKG is a given for the new 77W as its the world's longest 772 flight. The new 77W will have an additional 400 miles or so of range over the sCO 777s.
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Old Apr 27, 2015, 1:13 pm
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Originally Posted by Kacee
Fleet management is obviously a complex business, but they could, for example, shift sCO 772s onto routes currently served by sUA 772ERs, thus freeing up the sUA aircraft for redeployment. They're already using sCO widebodies for many long-haul routes out of the pmUA hubs.
Whatever happens highlights a couple of things:

1) Having two fleets and two seating plans (well, 3, but you know) creates a lack of flexibility

2) That flexibility complicates putting the 77Ws on a range of routes - presumably those that are in need of more capacity but not enough to justify a second daily flight. On this count, I'd suggest that ORD-HKG and perhaps EWR-HKG both qualify.
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Old Apr 27, 2015, 1:16 pm
  #315  
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It's funny that no one is even bothering to speculate that the sCO and sUA fleet could be merged within this time period. It's too farfetched even to consider.
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