Old Timer's Airline Quiz and Discussion.
Sep 3, 2017, 2:11 am
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9. Correct! Air California had been operating Douglas DC-9-10 and Lockheed L-188 Electra aircraft. The 737s replaced the DC9s and the Electras were retired. Then Air California subsequently brought the Electra back into the fleet in order to serve Lake Tahoe (TVL).
Sep 3, 2017, 8:03 am
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Air California got lucky. They were getting going from Orange County with Electras, and a couple of secondhand DC9-10s which had originally been run by Continental, but had been traded back to Douglas for improved DC9-30s. Meanwhile Pacific Airlines had ordered five of the first 737-200s, but when they were merged into Air West, who decided to standardise on the DC9, there was an inadequately worded contract with the 737s financier, GATX-Booth, who then ended up with them new but unwanted. They were one of the first which appeared in new airliner order lists under the lessors name rather than an actual airline. Air California got them at a keen price on just a by-the-month rental, they were actually registered to the lessor with -GB suffix registrations. And they built from there.
Sep 4, 2017, 4:21 am
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Quote:
I really feel that's probably a question too far
Laker Airways went bankrupt in February 1982 (gosh, 35 years ago) and longstanding chief pilot (in fact their chief pilot from day 1 in 1966) Alan Hellary lost his job. Right at the end of Laker's Skytrain they introduced a First Class, where wealthy but exuberant insurance exec Randolph Fields suddenly became a weekly regular on LGW-JFK, and had become mates with Hellary. A few weeks after the bankruptcy, the Falklands War started, following which the UK government started a rapid programme to build a full intercontinental airport in the Falklands for supply from Britain. None of the main international airlines were interested in operating this, so Hellary and Fields hatched a plan, for an operator called British Atlantic Airways.
Randolph Fields had a twin brother, Robbie Fields, a mainstream record label owner (Posh Boy Records) in the music industry at the time. Fields couldn't pull the financing together, but his twin brother knew well someone in the industry who had substantial funds by then - fellow record label owner Richard Branson, of Virgin Records.
And why would he be interested ? Here's the connection. Richard Branson's mother, Eve Branson, had been a pioneering flight attendant for British South American Airways, founded 1946, and flew the old Avros (Lancastrian, York and Tudor), so aviation was in the blood. We've covered BSAA in the past here. Richard Branson identified that The Falklands, even under government contract, were a poor business proposition with little scope for expansion, but Laker's departure from London to JFK had never been filled as expected by British Caledonian, so there was a prospect there under the old Bermuda Agreement, which allowed two airlines from each side (Pan Am, TWA, BA, and a vacancy). And so it grew.
Richard Branson and Randolph Fields were the two initial major backers of Virgin Atlantic, but fell out, and Branson eventually bought Fields out. Part of this gave Fields free lifetime Upper Class flights on Virgin, which he used every week between his London and New York offices, where his over-the-top but sharp and amusing personality apparently enlivened any flight he happened to be on for all around. It had been Fields who had the idea for the elaborate bar in the aircraft's Upper Class, of course. The pioneer Virgin Atlantic flight from Gatwick to JFK had Branson and Fields vying for pole position for the press interest (Fields would undoubtedly have won, but Branson was far better known). Hellary was of course the flight's captain, while Richard Branson's mum turned out her old BSAA flight attendant's uniform and got stuck in as well. Freddie Laker had been invited, but turned them down, saying he would show up when they were a substantial success.
And why is it called "Virgin Atlantic Airways", when they now fly to plenty of non-Atlantic destinations ? A further part of the agreement, it recognises the old British Atlantic Airways, and its initial joint ownership with Virgin Group.
Randolph Fields spent most of the money he got from Branson buying his share of Virgin Atlantic on starting Highland Express - and thereby lost it.
Now for a real Obscure Bonus Question. Tie together my two responses above. What is the connection between routes from the UK to South America (which Virgin Atlantic never even contemplated) and the Sir Richard / Randolph Fields tie-up.
Laker Airways went bankrupt in February 1982 (gosh, 35 years ago) and longstanding chief pilot (in fact their chief pilot from day 1 in 1966) Alan Hellary lost his job. Right at the end of Laker's Skytrain they introduced a First Class, where wealthy but exuberant insurance exec Randolph Fields suddenly became a weekly regular on LGW-JFK, and had become mates with Hellary. A few weeks after the bankruptcy, the Falklands War started, following which the UK government started a rapid programme to build a full intercontinental airport in the Falklands for supply from Britain. None of the main international airlines were interested in operating this, so Hellary and Fields hatched a plan, for an operator called British Atlantic Airways.
Randolph Fields had a twin brother, Robbie Fields, a mainstream record label owner (Posh Boy Records) in the music industry at the time. Fields couldn't pull the financing together, but his twin brother knew well someone in the industry who had substantial funds by then - fellow record label owner Richard Branson, of Virgin Records.
And why would he be interested ? Here's the connection. Richard Branson's mother, Eve Branson, had been a pioneering flight attendant for British South American Airways, founded 1946, and flew the old Avros (Lancastrian, York and Tudor), so aviation was in the blood. We've covered BSAA in the past here. Richard Branson identified that The Falklands, even under government contract, were a poor business proposition with little scope for expansion, but Laker's departure from London to JFK had never been filled as expected by British Caledonian, so there was a prospect there under the old Bermuda Agreement, which allowed two airlines from each side (Pan Am, TWA, BA, and a vacancy). And so it grew.
Richard Branson and Randolph Fields were the two initial major backers of Virgin Atlantic, but fell out, and Branson eventually bought Fields out. Part of this gave Fields free lifetime Upper Class flights on Virgin, which he used every week between his London and New York offices, where his over-the-top but sharp and amusing personality apparently enlivened any flight he happened to be on for all around. It had been Fields who had the idea for the elaborate bar in the aircraft's Upper Class, of course. The pioneer Virgin Atlantic flight from Gatwick to JFK had Branson and Fields vying for pole position for the press interest (Fields would undoubtedly have won, but Branson was far better known). Hellary was of course the flight's captain, while Richard Branson's mum turned out her old BSAA flight attendant's uniform and got stuck in as well. Freddie Laker had been invited, but turned them down, saying he would show up when they were a substantial success.
And why is it called "Virgin Atlantic Airways", when they now fly to plenty of non-Atlantic destinations ? A further part of the agreement, it recognises the old British Atlantic Airways, and its initial joint ownership with Virgin Group.
Randolph Fields spent most of the money he got from Branson buying his share of Virgin Atlantic on starting Highland Express - and thereby lost it.
Sep 4, 2017, 6:59 am
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Quote:
I really feel that's probably a question too far
Laker Airways went bankrupt in February 1982 (gosh, 35 years ago) and longstanding chief pilot (in fact their chief pilot from day 1 in 1966) Alan Hellary lost his job. Right at the end of Laker's Skytrain they introduced a First Class, where wealthy but exuberant insurance exec Randolph Fields suddenly became a weekly regular on LGW-JFK, and had become mates with Hellary. A few weeks after the bankruptcy, the Falklands War started, following which the UK government started a rapid programme to build a full intercontinental airport in the Falklands for supply from Britain. None of the main international airlines were interested in operating this, so Hellary and Fields hatched a plan, for an operator called British Atlantic Airways.
Randolph Fields had a twin brother, Robbie Fields, a mainstream record label owner (Posh Boy Records) in the music industry at the time. Fields couldn't pull the financing together, but his twin brother knew well someone in the industry who had substantial funds by then - fellow record label owner Richard Branson, of Virgin Records.
And why would he be interested ? Here's the connection. Richard Branson's mother, Eve Branson, had been a pioneering flight attendant for British South American Airways, founded 1946, and flew the old Avros (Lancastrian, York and Tudor), so aviation was in the blood. We've covered BSAA in the past here. Richard Branson identified that The Falklands, even under government contract, were a poor business proposition with little scope for expansion, but Laker's departure from London to JFK had never been filled as expected by British Caledonian, so there was a prospect there under the old Bermuda Agreement, which allowed two airlines from each side (Pan Am, TWA, BA, and a vacancy). And so it grew.
Richard Branson and Randolph Fields were the two initial major backers of Virgin Atlantic, but fell out, and Branson eventually bought Fields out. Part of this gave Fields free lifetime Upper Class flights on Virgin, which he used every week between his London and New York offices, where his over-the-top but sharp and amusing personality apparently enlivened any flight he happened to be on for all around. It had been Fields who had the idea for the elaborate bar in the aircraft's Upper Class, of course. The pioneer Virgin Atlantic flight from Gatwick to JFK had Branson and Fields vying for pole position for the press interest (Fields would undoubtedly have won, but Branson was far better known). Hellary was of course the flight's captain, while Richard Branson's mum turned out her old BSAA flight attendant's uniform and got stuck in as well. Freddie Laker had been invited, but turned them down, saying he would show up when they were a substantial success.
And why is it called "Virgin Atlantic Airways", when they now fly to plenty of non-Atlantic destinations ? A further part of the agreement, it recognises the old British Atlantic Airways, and its initial joint ownership with Virgin Group.
Randolph Fields spent most of the money he got from Branson buying his share of Virgin Atlantic on starting Highland Express - and thereby lost it.
I really feel that's probably a question too far
Laker Airways went bankrupt in February 1982 (gosh, 35 years ago) and longstanding chief pilot (in fact their chief pilot from day 1 in 1966) Alan Hellary lost his job. Right at the end of Laker's Skytrain they introduced a First Class, where wealthy but exuberant insurance exec Randolph Fields suddenly became a weekly regular on LGW-JFK, and had become mates with Hellary. A few weeks after the bankruptcy, the Falklands War started, following which the UK government started a rapid programme to build a full intercontinental airport in the Falklands for supply from Britain. None of the main international airlines were interested in operating this, so Hellary and Fields hatched a plan, for an operator called British Atlantic Airways.
Randolph Fields had a twin brother, Robbie Fields, a mainstream record label owner (Posh Boy Records) in the music industry at the time. Fields couldn't pull the financing together, but his twin brother knew well someone in the industry who had substantial funds by then - fellow record label owner Richard Branson, of Virgin Records.
And why would he be interested ? Here's the connection. Richard Branson's mother, Eve Branson, had been a pioneering flight attendant for British South American Airways, founded 1946, and flew the old Avros (Lancastrian, York and Tudor), so aviation was in the blood. We've covered BSAA in the past here. Richard Branson identified that The Falklands, even under government contract, were a poor business proposition with little scope for expansion, but Laker's departure from London to JFK had never been filled as expected by British Caledonian, so there was a prospect there under the old Bermuda Agreement, which allowed two airlines from each side (Pan Am, TWA, BA, and a vacancy). And so it grew.
Richard Branson and Randolph Fields were the two initial major backers of Virgin Atlantic, but fell out, and Branson eventually bought Fields out. Part of this gave Fields free lifetime Upper Class flights on Virgin, which he used every week between his London and New York offices, where his over-the-top but sharp and amusing personality apparently enlivened any flight he happened to be on for all around. It had been Fields who had the idea for the elaborate bar in the aircraft's Upper Class, of course. The pioneer Virgin Atlantic flight from Gatwick to JFK had Branson and Fields vying for pole position for the press interest (Fields would undoubtedly have won, but Branson was far better known). Hellary was of course the flight's captain, while Richard Branson's mum turned out her old BSAA flight attendant's uniform and got stuck in as well. Freddie Laker had been invited, but turned them down, saying he would show up when they were a substantial success.
And why is it called "Virgin Atlantic Airways", when they now fly to plenty of non-Atlantic destinations ? A further part of the agreement, it recognises the old British Atlantic Airways, and its initial joint ownership with Virgin Group.
Randolph Fields spent most of the money he got from Branson buying his share of Virgin Atlantic on starting Highland Express - and thereby lost it.
The airline business certainly attracts some colorful (and in this case perhaps we should say colourful) characters. I've worked for three commuters and one major air carrier during my career in aviation, being Pacific Coast Airlines based at SBA, Dash Air based at SNA and Mahalo Air based at HNL plus Alaska Airlines. My time with Era Aviation was primarily spent on the helicopter side of their business; however, Era was operating scheduled passenger services in Alaska at the time via a code share agreement with Alaska Airlines flying Convair 580, de Havilland Canada DHC-6 Twin Otter and de Havilland DHC-8 Dash 8 equipment. The firm I'm currently with has a controlling interest in two regional air carriers with one based in the U.K. and the other based in Australia. In fact, I've been working lately with my fixed wing counterpart in the U.K. concerning a possible turboprop shuttle service for a certain major oil & gas company between two non-U.S. destinations. The bulk of my time is currently spent in the Part 135 helicopter world specifically for offshore oil & gas support. And once upon a time, I was part of an effort to possibly set up scheduled helicopter airline service for Continental linking Newark with several destinations on the New York side of the river. I got to meet Gordon Bethune during this effort (which never came to fruition) who I believe certainly qualifies as a colorful character.
And so, back to business: there are plenty of unanswered quiz items left if anyone is interested. Please see posts #11399 and #11407 .
Sep 4, 2017, 9:19 am
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3- the majority of AA's 1961 jet fleet was the Boeing 707 -- but for purposes of this question, the more likely suspect is the Convair 990
Sep 4, 2017, 12:59 pm
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So you may have to really think outside of the box on this one..... @:-)
Sep 4, 2017, 11:24 pm
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the only other Western jetliners extant at that time were the 880, Caravelle, Comet, and DC-8; the only one of those that to me seems to have even an iota of feasibility would be an 880 (probably on a short-term lease from Convair, in compensation for late delivery of the first 990s), but it seems rather remarkable that, in 11,400-some prior posts in this thread, we hadn't yet addressed that subject
Sep 5, 2017, 3:35 am
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3- AA jets in 1961, NOT the 707/720/720B/990
the only other Western jetliners extant at that time were the 880, Caravelle, Comet, and DC-8; the only one of those that to me seems to have even an iota of feasibility would be an 880 (probably on a short-term lease from Convair, in compensation for late delivery of the first 990s), but it seems rather remarkable that, in 11,400-some prior posts in this thread, we hadn't yet addressed that subject
the only other Western jetliners extant at that time were the 880, Caravelle, Comet, and DC-8; the only one of those that to me seems to have even an iota of feasibility would be an 880 (probably on a short-term lease from Convair, in compensation for late delivery of the first 990s), but it seems rather remarkable that, in 11,400-some prior posts in this thread, we hadn't yet addressed that subject
Cv880 or DC8 ? I'll go for a DC8.
Last edited by WHBM; Sep 5, 2017 at 3:51 am
Sep 5, 2017, 7:04 am
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3- AA jets in 1961, NOT the 707/720/720B/990
the only other Western jetliners extant at that time were the 880, Caravelle, Comet, and DC-8; the only one of those that to me seems to have even an iota of feasibility would be an 880 (probably on a short-term lease from Convair, in compensation for late delivery of the first 990s), but it seems rather remarkable that, in 11,400-some prior posts in this thread, we hadn't yet addressed that subject
the only other Western jetliners extant at that time were the 880, Caravelle, Comet, and DC-8; the only one of those that to me seems to have even an iota of feasibility would be an 880 (probably on a short-term lease from Convair, in compensation for late delivery of the first 990s), but it seems rather remarkable that, in 11,400-some prior posts in this thread, we hadn't yet addressed that subject
Ah, I see that WHBM has weighed in concerning this conundrum.....
BTW, I also found an American operated Electra flight that originated in El Paso back at this same time in 1961. Routing was ELP-DAL-GSW-LIT-MEM-IDL-BDL.
Last edited by jlemon; Sep 5, 2017 at 8:29 am Reason: AA Electra service from ELP
Sep 5, 2017, 8:20 am
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I reckon it's an Interchange Flight. Of the candidates Delta is probably the most likely, as their 1961 routes didn't really compete at all, and I don't think Delta got authority to go through to California until a bit later; there were several east-west Interchanges that did the changeover at the midpoint. If I recall correctly, there actually wasn't any direct Atlanta to California operator at this time.
Cv880 or DC8 ? I'll go for a DC8.
Cv880 or DC8 ? I'll go for a DC8.
DL/AA 921: Atlanta (ATL) 5:35p - 6:26p Fort Worth (GSW) 7:15p - 9:15p Los Angeles (LAX)
Op: Daily
Equip: DC8
It appears this was the only direct flight from ATL to LAX at the time. The return AA-DL interchange flight operated with a DC8 was a red eye that routed via DAL.
Delta and American were also operating a westbound interchange flight at this same time with a routing of ATL-BHM-DAL-ELP-TUS-PHX-SFO. Equipment was a DC6.
In addition, National, Delta and American were together operating interchange flights between Miami and Los Angeles in 1961. The interchange points were MSY and DAL.
And another interchange service operated by American at this time involved Continental with a routing of HOU-ELP-LAX. Aircraft was a Boeing 720B.
Last edited by jlemon; Sep 5, 2017 at 8:42 am Reason: Added AA-CO interchange flight
Sep 5, 2017, 3:06 pm
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By 1986 the Qantas DC4 which operated Sydney-Norfolk Island-Auckland had finally gone. it lasted to the mid-1970s and was the last 4-engined piston operation by a major airline anywhere in the world. The runway was finally extended. I think that Air New Zealand and Ansett then operated F27s, under charter to Qantas, and maybe some operated a 737 as well. Both airlines had both types.
Sep 6, 2017, 2:39 am
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Actually on a world map made in Britain Norfolk Island is very much right of centre
By 1986 the Qantas DC4 which operated Sydney-Norfolk Island-Auckland had finally gone. it lasted to the mid-1970s and was the last 4-engined piston operation by a major airline anywhere in the world. The runway was finally extended. I think that Air New Zealand and Ansett then operated F27s, under charter to Qantas, and maybe some operated a 737 as well. Both airlines had both types.
By 1986 the Qantas DC4 which operated Sydney-Norfolk Island-Auckland had finally gone. it lasted to the mid-1970s and was the last 4-engined piston operation by a major airline anywhere in the world. The runway was finally extended. I think that Air New Zealand and Ansett then operated F27s, under charter to Qantas, and maybe some operated a 737 as well. Both airlines had both types.
Sep 6, 2017, 11:27 am
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Thanks for posting some new quiz items. Here are my guesses:
5: Pakistan International used Sikorsky S-61s from a hub in Dacca, in what was once East Pakistan and is now Bangladesh.
11: Delta, with DC-8-51s KIN-MSY-DAL-LAX.
15. I think this would have been United's short lived service out of JFK, using DC-8-61s.
5: Pakistan International used Sikorsky S-61s from a hub in Dacca, in what was once East Pakistan and is now Bangladesh.
11: Delta, with DC-8-51s KIN-MSY-DAL-LAX.
15. I think this would have been United's short lived service out of JFK, using DC-8-61s.
Sep 6, 2017, 2:27 pm
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Quote:
Richard Branson and Randolph Fields were the two initial major backers of Virgin Atlantic, but fell out, and Branson eventually bought Fields out....
And why is it called "Virgin Atlantic Airways", when they now fly to plenty of non-Atlantic destinations ? A further part of the agreement, it recognises the old British Atlantic Airways, and its initial joint ownership with Virgin Group....
Richard Branson and Randolph Fields were the two initial major backers of Virgin Atlantic, but fell out, and Branson eventually bought Fields out....
And why is it called "Virgin Atlantic Airways", when they now fly to plenty of non-Atlantic destinations ? A further part of the agreement, it recognises the old British Atlantic Airways, and its initial joint ownership with Virgin Group....
It appears that Mr. Branson was on Necker Island, his private isle in the British Virgin Islands (BVI) located just north of Virgin Gorda, when Hurricane Irma, a Category 5 storm with 185 mph maximum sustained winds, passed over. It also appears the eye of Irma passed directly over Necker Island earlier today. Irma is one of the strongest hurricanes ever to have struck the BVI. Sir Richard is reported to have taken shelter in his wine cellar on Necker with other folks on his team who were there to assist him during the storm. He also reportedly sent the following message prior to the arrival of Irma: "We are expecting to get the full force of the hurricane in around five hours time, when we will retreat to a concrete wine cellar under the Great House. Knowing our wonderful team as I do, I expect there will be little wine left in the cellar when we all emerge."
Last edited by jlemon; Sep 6, 2017 at 3:40 pm