Are there rules regarding locking threads?
Apr 20, 2002 | 12:42 pm
#106
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Thank you tigertiger. I could not have said it better myself.
I think we all agree that "Flame" Threads, Attack Threads and Commercial Message Threads should be closed.
I think most would see that Randy is not going to change his mond about changing/moving Off-Topic Posts.
This only leaves the "Where is so-and-so" Thread. You will note that I did not specifically state doc. That is because Randy has in the past closed the same type of threads about other FT'ers that were not around. Here is a quote from on of those threads:
So, tigertiger has found the written rules. THANK YOU.
I think we all agree that "Flame" Threads, Attack Threads and Commercial Message Threads should be closed.
I think most would see that Randy is not going to change his mond about changing/moving Off-Topic Posts.
This only leaves the "Where is so-and-so" Thread. You will note that I did not specifically state doc. That is because Randy has in the past closed the same type of threads about other FT'ers that were not around. Here is a quote from on of those threads:
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally Posted By Randy Petersen
As members of this community, we do not talk about other members - good, bad or indifferent. We do however return to the topics of travel, miles and points when the opprtunity arrives. I think that opportunity is here now.
</font>
As members of this community, we do not talk about other members - good, bad or indifferent. We do however return to the topics of travel, miles and points when the opprtunity arrives. I think that opportunity is here now.
</font>
Apr 20, 2002 | 12:54 pm
#107
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by CameraGuy:
I think we all agree that "Flame" Threads, Attack Threads and Commercial Message Threads should be closed.
</font>
I think we all agree that "Flame" Threads, Attack Threads and Commercial Message Threads should be closed.
</font>
Apr 20, 2002 | 1:06 pm
#108
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: East Bay, CA UA1K
Posts: 813
No, no, thank you, CameraGuy. It was what you said earlier that got me thinking about it:
Just that there some inconsistancy and fuzziness, and anyone who doesn't understand that the world is not always black and white will have an easier time of it.
PG, many times, threads are not closed. I have seen lots of posts edited on the advice of other FTers, and some posts edited by managment for extremely offensive content when the poster wouldn't, but the threads themselves were left open. I have also seen threads go on and on inappropriately even after Randy has stepped in to tell people to remain on topic/ go back to posting about miles or points. Personally, I think Randy must be getting tired of moderating unresponsive posters and would rather shut down unproductive threads sooner rather than later these days.
Also, the rules only mention Actions That Will Compel FlyerTalk Intervention. They do not specifically state this one will result in a closed thread, this one will result in a personal email from Randy, this one will get you banned for life, etc. Intervention can come in many forms, and you may not know if a post has been edited at Randy's urging, rather than being locked immediately.
[This message has been edited by tigertiger (edited 04-20-2002).]
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by CameraGuy:
I will be the first to admit that some threads that SHOULD have been locked have not been. ... What I am saying is that I have not seen a locked thread that I thought should have remained open.
</font>
I will be the first to admit that some threads that SHOULD have been locked have not been. ... What I am saying is that I have not seen a locked thread that I thought should have remained open.
</font>
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by PG:
I don't think that we all agree. Many of us have said that such threads should stay open, and the persons who flame should be asked to edit their comments. This interpretation is completely consistent with the rules mentioned.</font>
I don't think that we all agree. Many of us have said that such threads should stay open, and the persons who flame should be asked to edit their comments. This interpretation is completely consistent with the rules mentioned.</font>
Also, the rules only mention Actions That Will Compel FlyerTalk Intervention. They do not specifically state this one will result in a closed thread, this one will result in a personal email from Randy, this one will get you banned for life, etc. Intervention can come in many forms, and you may not know if a post has been edited at Randy's urging, rather than being locked immediately.
[This message has been edited by tigertiger (edited 04-20-2002).]
Apr 20, 2002 | 5:14 pm
#109
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Good points by everyone. I will point out again that, in some cases, merely closing threads is not sufficient action IMHO.
FewMiles..
FewMiles..
Apr 20, 2002 | 8:06 pm
#110
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[self censured]
[This message has been edited by Gaucho100K (edited 04-21-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Gaucho100K (edited 04-21-2002).]
Apr 20, 2002 | 10:15 pm
#111
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: In protest of Flyertalk's uncalledfor censoring of my point of view, I cancelled my InsideFlyer subscription. So long, and thanks for everything.
Posts: 3,325
Gaucho100K, your continued references to me personally are uncalled for.
I stated my opinion of Moremiles in a way that none of the people who founded that board (myself included) could or did object to. I graciously apologized to you for offending you, both in public and in private, even though I only spoke the truth, and only in one post in one thread, and have received nothing but insults and abuse from you ever since. My multiple attempts at e-mailing you have gone unanswered.
What I said in that post was (In its entirety)
I still have no idea what in that statement injured you so greatly as to put you in a personal crusade against me, but in any case I can do no more than stand by it as fully truthful and stand by my apology to you if in some way the truth about a situation you had noithing to do with offended you.
Drop it already. Either that or be honorable enough to realize any punishments you receive are specifically because of your own overboard behavior.
[This message has been edited by NJDavid (edited 04-20-2002).]
I stated my opinion of Moremiles in a way that none of the people who founded that board (myself included) could or did object to. I graciously apologized to you for offending you, both in public and in private, even though I only spoke the truth, and only in one post in one thread, and have received nothing but insults and abuse from you ever since. My multiple attempts at e-mailing you have gone unanswered.
What I said in that post was (In its entirety)
Code:
And to further inform, not all of the original 25 founders of Moremiles still participate at that site. There turned out to be major disagrements on such topics as honor, equal treatment of all members, blind justice, following agreed guidelines, and keeping one's promises. I believe it is currently an active site with many members, including some who are no longer allowed to participate here on FT, some who choose not to participate on FT, and some who participate on both. That last group included a number of people who saw no conflict serving as the "directors" of both sites, but that group has been reduced significantly. I can assure you (from first hand knowledge) that despite past rumors, Moremiles was never intended to be "an elitist society" nor a "Flyertalk replacement" and there was in fact a great desire NOT to copy Flyertalk nor injure it in any way. However, it also was never intended to be a monument to broken promises and dishonor, and fills that role very well for some.
I still have no idea what in that statement injured you so greatly as to put you in a personal crusade against me, but in any case I can do no more than stand by it as fully truthful and stand by my apology to you if in some way the truth about a situation you had noithing to do with offended you.
Drop it already. Either that or be honorable enough to realize any punishments you receive are specifically because of your own overboard behavior.
[This message has been edited by NJDavid (edited 04-20-2002).]
Apr 21, 2002 | 2:00 am
#112
Join Date: May 2001
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I guess I am late in this thread and maybe I am missing something.
I also have little time usually to look at multiple threads. So I hit Buzz and then check the other pages I have not looked at most recently. I guess I do not care that threads are moved if that is the way Randy would like it. I do know that I will miss many interesting discussions. What does bother me is that in a atleast a couple of threads (this is just one example)
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/005423.html
were just posted as closed. No forwarding comments, no notice of a flame war in the offing, nothing. I just noticed yesterday that it had been actually moved and this was an old thread pulled forward. I felt the discussion and information was useful.
So while it does not seem to matter, I also think that I would prefer Punki's view of a future FT. With growth the recent five days of the old Buzz might be 15 pages but I would know that if I check quickly I will find what I want. Just my opinion.
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Robert
I also have little time usually to look at multiple threads. So I hit Buzz and then check the other pages I have not looked at most recently. I guess I do not care that threads are moved if that is the way Randy would like it. I do know that I will miss many interesting discussions. What does bother me is that in a atleast a couple of threads (this is just one example)
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/005423.html
were just posted as closed. No forwarding comments, no notice of a flame war in the offing, nothing. I just noticed yesterday that it had been actually moved and this was an old thread pulled forward. I felt the discussion and information was useful.
So while it does not seem to matter, I also think that I would prefer Punki's view of a future FT. With growth the recent five days of the old Buzz might be 15 pages but I would know that if I check quickly I will find what I want. Just my opinion.
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Robert
Apr 21, 2002 | 3:00 am
#113
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: East Bay, CA UA1K
Posts: 813
robvberg, the rules clearly state that off topic threads will be closed or moved. The post you point out has nothing to do with "Discussion of the latest frequent flyer program buzz... " The discussion would be just as useful to you had you found it under 'TravelBuzz', which is probably where it belongs. It is not useful for people looking for breaking news about miles and points programs.
I think the point is that if we follow the guidelines, there will be no reason to close or move threads. Simple.
I think the point is that if we follow the guidelines, there will be no reason to close or move threads. Simple.
Apr 21, 2002 | 4:52 am
#114
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tigertiger,
I understand what the rules are. Yet this thread was not found under another topic and could not have been found under any other topics by use of the search engine. Atleast in any way I have been able to use it.
The reason I even brought it up was that there was no indication (contrary to what people had stated in this thread) that it had been moved only that it was closed. No matter what the intention, I was upset that a topic would be just closed that had been considered OK before. I had originally brought this subject forward because significant changes had occured since last discussed. I answered by email the questions that had been posed to me prior to closure.
So tigertiger maybe you have the ability to change what topic a thread can be pulled forward to when it starts in another. Unfortunately I do not so I was not able to as you say 'follow the rules.'
I do feel that not even considering other options is a mistake and I would have thought, as I assume Punki did, that this was an appropriate place to have this discussion. Of course this is Randy's choice and after this I will not comment or argue about it any further.
I can assure you that the community loses out when things become this confrontational and dogmatic. I have watched several online communities that support bands wither because of these types of arguements and the decision not to accept input. In both main cases it was the singer or band deciding they wanted to change it for future growth that ruptured the community feel. The sad part is that neither of them were ever damaged by flame wars that stretched over months or even the discussions of homosexuality, religion or politics. Yet the attempt to regulate it destroyed one and gutted the other.
------------------
Robert
I understand what the rules are. Yet this thread was not found under another topic and could not have been found under any other topics by use of the search engine. Atleast in any way I have been able to use it.
The reason I even brought it up was that there was no indication (contrary to what people had stated in this thread) that it had been moved only that it was closed. No matter what the intention, I was upset that a topic would be just closed that had been considered OK before. I had originally brought this subject forward because significant changes had occured since last discussed. I answered by email the questions that had been posed to me prior to closure.
So tigertiger maybe you have the ability to change what topic a thread can be pulled forward to when it starts in another. Unfortunately I do not so I was not able to as you say 'follow the rules.'
I do feel that not even considering other options is a mistake and I would have thought, as I assume Punki did, that this was an appropriate place to have this discussion. Of course this is Randy's choice and after this I will not comment or argue about it any further.
I can assure you that the community loses out when things become this confrontational and dogmatic. I have watched several online communities that support bands wither because of these types of arguements and the decision not to accept input. In both main cases it was the singer or band deciding they wanted to change it for future growth that ruptured the community feel. The sad part is that neither of them were ever damaged by flame wars that stretched over months or even the discussions of homosexuality, religion or politics. Yet the attempt to regulate it destroyed one and gutted the other.
------------------
Robert
Apr 21, 2002 | 6:10 am
#115
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arturo sea thet hee es stihl aloud two postie heer.
triggertrigger sez:
or, mebe arturo jus ware "ban" dee-odor-ant.
(editd fore spileng)
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Loving, Caring, Honest, Intelligent, Empathetic, Creative, and Giving.
triggertrigger sez:
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Rules, Policies, and Disclaimers
Actions That Will Compel FlyerTalk Intervention:
Inappropriate Posts
Off topic Posts
Offensive Language/Material
Personal attacks
Condoning of Illegal Activity
Invasion of Privacy
Commercial Messages
Copyright Material
The post about 'Where's doc' probably fell into 'Inappropriate' and 'Invasion of Privacy', and you may feel that is rather arbitrary on Randy's part. But so is allowing 'Arturo' to post, strictly speaking.
(edited for clearity)</font>
Actions That Will Compel FlyerTalk Intervention:
Inappropriate Posts
Off topic Posts
Offensive Language/Material
Personal attacks
Condoning of Illegal Activity
Invasion of Privacy
Commercial Messages
Copyright Material
The post about 'Where's doc' probably fell into 'Inappropriate' and 'Invasion of Privacy', and you may feel that is rather arbitrary on Randy's part. But so is allowing 'Arturo' to post, strictly speaking.
(edited for clearity)</font>
(editd fore spileng)
------------------
Loving, Caring, Honest, Intelligent, Empathetic, Creative, and Giving.
Apr 21, 2002 | 6:28 am
#116
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: In protest of Flyertalk's uncalledfor censoring of my point of view, I cancelled my InsideFlyer subscription. So long, and thanks for everything.
Posts: 3,325
Actually, I see no rule that would not allow Arturo to post.
There is nothing in the TOS about needing ability to grasp the english language or the written word.
The only reason that Arturo would be a TOS violation is if he is an "alias" of another Flyertalker, as two or more accounts is strictly a violation.
However, Punki has made it quite clear that everyone of substance amongst Flyertalk's old timers has or is about to leave Flyertalk because of recent changes that annoy her and a vast majority of past Flyertaklers . So, logic dictates that that Arturo's other persona has left Flyertalk, finally making him legit.
But, that's just logic based upon what people have said, so don't hold me to it, as who knows who can be trusted anymore.
There is nothing in the TOS about needing ability to grasp the english language or the written word.
The only reason that Arturo would be a TOS violation is if he is an "alias" of another Flyertalker, as two or more accounts is strictly a violation.
However, Punki has made it quite clear that everyone of substance amongst Flyertalk's old timers has or is about to leave Flyertalk because of recent changes that annoy her and a vast majority of past Flyertaklers . So, logic dictates that that Arturo's other persona has left Flyertalk, finally making him legit.
But, that's just logic based upon what people have said, so don't hold me to it, as who knows who can be trusted anymore.
Apr 21, 2002 | 8:55 am
#117
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by robvberg:
...The reason I even brought it up was that there was no indication (contrary to what people had stated in this thread) that it had been moved only that it was closed... </font>
...The reason I even brought it up was that there was no indication (contrary to what people had stated in this thread) that it had been moved only that it was closed... </font>
[This message has been edited by cblaisd (edited 04-21-2002).]
Apr 21, 2002 | 11:47 am
#118
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NJDavid-- Sorry to disappoint you, but Im afraid I dont have a personal crusade against you. I like to think that principles and issues are more important than people.
Your post above shows that you are, once again, missing the point. My issues are not with you personally, but the actions that you undertook just made them suitable as an example for the point I was trying to make. I also would like you to point out where I have abused and/or insulted you, as I only have been making reference to your actions. If thats insulting to you, well who should be to blame for that...? Unless Im to blame for your posts & actions..... (???)
The post that I take issue with you about is
I would ask you to read the above words and ask yourself how some of us that post on moremiles should take the meaning of what you wrote.
Also, thanks for telling me to drop it or face punishment. I wasnt aware that you were running the show here... but, hey, congratulations on your promotion. In any event, since it seems to be so important to you, I accept your 'sincere apology' and promise to make no future reference to you and/or your posts, since it seems to trouble you so much.
Finally, are you attending the Freddies? Im thinking of attending, and if you are going to be there, I would very much like to meet you. I think that a face to face discussion of the issues would be a good way to clear up each others points of view - and then either agree or agree to disagree. Either way, I think that after meeting each other (in person) it will be easier for us to understand where we are coming from. As was posted elsewhere, it means a lot to be able to put a face to a handle.
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Gaucho100K
(edited for grammar & formatting)
[This message has been edited by Gaucho100K (edited 04-21-2002).]
Your post above shows that you are, once again, missing the point. My issues are not with you personally, but the actions that you undertook just made them suitable as an example for the point I was trying to make. I also would like you to point out where I have abused and/or insulted you, as I only have been making reference to your actions. If thats insulting to you, well who should be to blame for that...? Unless Im to blame for your posts & actions..... (???)
The post that I take issue with you about is
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">
However, it (moremiles) also was never intended to be a monument to broken promises and dishonor, and fills that role very well for some.
</font>
However, it (moremiles) also was never intended to be a monument to broken promises and dishonor, and fills that role very well for some.
</font>
Also, thanks for telling me to drop it or face punishment. I wasnt aware that you were running the show here... but, hey, congratulations on your promotion. In any event, since it seems to be so important to you, I accept your 'sincere apology' and promise to make no future reference to you and/or your posts, since it seems to trouble you so much.
Finally, are you attending the Freddies? Im thinking of attending, and if you are going to be there, I would very much like to meet you. I think that a face to face discussion of the issues would be a good way to clear up each others points of view - and then either agree or agree to disagree. Either way, I think that after meeting each other (in person) it will be easier for us to understand where we are coming from. As was posted elsewhere, it means a lot to be able to put a face to a handle.
------------------
Gaucho100K
(edited for grammar & formatting)
[This message has been edited by Gaucho100K (edited 04-21-2002).]
Apr 21, 2002 | 12:02 pm
#119
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: East Bay, CA UA1K
Posts: 813
robvberg, I know. The board is chaotic right now. And probably Randy never envisioned such strong opposition to his goals by a few flyertalkers. So at the time the post was made, it was ok to post that subject under that topic, and now it's not. Obviously the transition to enforcing the rules is going to be a little disruptive and uncomfortable. Perhaps next time someones wants to continue a discussion begun prior to the changes, they would just begin a new topic in the appropriate forum and post a link to the old discussion saying "to continue this discussion...
I do not believe that Randy's 'attempt to regulate' these boards will destroy it. I do believe that a few posters who are really unhappy about the changes will continue to try to gather support for their positions, causing more chaos and unrest in the meantime till they finally acquiesce or go elsewhere. But Randy has stated his vision, his goals, and his rules pretty clearly and I don't imagine that continued kicking and whining from what is essentially a very small percentage of registered posters will change his mind.
arturo, I should have prefaces my remarks. You are ever charming, ever gracious, always welcome. It's just that this little thing here:
"Are multiple handles permitted?
After much thought and debate we have decided that multiple handles are not in the best interest of FlyerTalk.
would terminate your existance if stricly enforced. (Which I am NOT advocating.) But I wonder if your excellent qualities (Loving, Caring, Honest, Intelligent, Empathetic, Creative, and Giving.) would be absorbed by your alter ego, or if they would go away if you do?
I do not believe that Randy's 'attempt to regulate' these boards will destroy it. I do believe that a few posters who are really unhappy about the changes will continue to try to gather support for their positions, causing more chaos and unrest in the meantime till they finally acquiesce or go elsewhere. But Randy has stated his vision, his goals, and his rules pretty clearly and I don't imagine that continued kicking and whining from what is essentially a very small percentage of registered posters will change his mind.
arturo, I should have prefaces my remarks. You are ever charming, ever gracious, always welcome. It's just that this little thing here:
"Are multiple handles permitted?
After much thought and debate we have decided that multiple handles are not in the best interest of FlyerTalk.
would terminate your existance if stricly enforced. (Which I am NOT advocating.) But I wonder if your excellent qualities (Loving, Caring, Honest, Intelligent, Empathetic, Creative, and Giving.) would be absorbed by your alter ego, or if they would go away if you do?
Apr 21, 2002 | 12:47 pm
#120
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Gaucho,
I'll be at the Freddies; and would love to meet the infamous NJDavid.
I was just thinking...
Could you imagine having these 'converstaions' with the everyday people in our lives? My wife, kids, and business associates would kill me for acting this way (just a general comment).
What is it about being online (anywhere online), that often times brings out the bad side?
Dan
I'll be at the Freddies; and would love to meet the infamous NJDavid.
I was just thinking...
Could you imagine having these 'converstaions' with the everyday people in our lives? My wife, kids, and business associates would kill me for acting this way (just a general comment).
What is it about being online (anywhere online), that often times brings out the bad side?
Dan