Missy, you are absolutely right that there is no point in having a "someplace else" for folks who don't know it exists and most of the "misposters" really don't. Those of us who have been around a while (let's face it we are FT junkies) get it. We are the ones who just don't bother to go to Miles Buzz anymore.

The real problem here is that the current format is cumbersome and inherently flawed. For those of you who disagree with my postion, would you please set forth your alternative explanation for the 138+ misposted threads and 2,000+ misposted responses?

My deep and serious concern is that new folks pop in, post, come back to read responses to their post and find that Whooosh their post has disappeared. They shrug, and go on to greener internet pastures. I do know for a fact that this happens and that makes me sad, because if it had happened to you way back at the start of your FT career, we wouldn't be friends today.

Again I will ask, is there some technical or logical reason for moving the General Travel topic from its highly successful position at the top of FT Miles? If not, is there a logical, rational reason for not putting it back to where it once belonged?

I put great effort into making certain that all of my posts are polite, logical, well thought out and clear. I would very much appreciate it if people would actually read them and think about them and respond to them directly, as I promise I will always do with yours.

We must rid ourselves of ego and emotionalism if we are to find a solution to this problem which is IMHO a threat to the continued success of FlyerTalk.


OBTW, dhammer53, I assure you that the closing down of responsible, civil discussions that just happen to touch upon controversial subjects, would be a tragic error. It would only serve to create a gestapo environment which would drive away intelligent, caring, thinking FlyerTalk contributors who would otherwise be inclined to put forth enlightening ideas which would help us all grow.



[This message has been edited by Punki (edited 04-13-2002).]

Indeed. Some simply don't like the answers they also have received ad nauseaum.

Quote:

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"> Remember this, this is Randy's board. All he asks is that you play by the rules. Some of those rules are in print, and some are not. That's life baby. I question the need to constantly re-hash these conversations.

Precisely! Thus there is no "need" for the constant re-hashing of the same themes. That's the sort of thing more likely to drive newcomers away than some very short term learning curves -- which ANY website which is worth being on has!

Punki you continue to ask the very same question in several threads which you continue to initiate. And you continue to get the same answers. What I don't understand why you persist. Take the answers you've been given on those threads, plus dhammer53's reminder that some rules are not in fact printed but are easy enough to figure out -- and you indeed have your answer to your question (again). You don't like the answers, but that's different than not "understanding," imo.

Perfect! There has not been anything said on this subject that is more rational and reasoned and correct than this. Well said missydarlin indeed!

Exactly. A number of us would be prepared to follow your lead if you will indeed show us the way in this regard.

Quote:

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"> OBTW, ...the closing down of responsible, civil discussions that just happen to touch upon controversial subjects, would be a tragic error. It would only serve to create a Gestapo...

Oh, please. Given what is happening in the Middle East (whatever anyone's attitudes) and given that Jews and many Christians were just this last week recalling Yom Ha-Shoah, the Holocaust Days of Remembrance, your "gestapo" comparison is simply off-base. This is simply not a comparison to be so lightly used, imo; it cheapens things.

(Edited for code mistakes)


[This message has been edited by cblaisd (edited 04-12-2002).]

cblaisd writes:

Yes, cblaisd this is true, I do continue to ask my questions. However, I do so only because I cannot take the answers I have received because, quite honestly, I have never seen a logical clear answer to this very simple question:

Why are we trying to force people to post general travel posts on Travel Buzz (where they are not inclined to post), rather than on FlyerTalk Miles under a "The Buzz" heading where they are inclined to post?

We know that there is a high cost to this policy, all I would like is a simple explanation as to its offsetting benefit.

While other more intelligent and enlightening answers may exist, the only answers I have seen are similar to this emotional (rather than logical) response that Dan just posted:



That IMHO is a great deal closer to Gestapo thinking (with which I am sadly quite familiar) than it is to caring, enabling logic. It saddens me that otherwise pleasant, intelligent FlyerTakers find this very offensive type of response tolerable and within the limits of decency and acceptability.



[This message has been edited by Punki (edited 04-12-2002).]

Non-emotionally, here's my guess:

Randy wants to create multiple boards for different audiences because he runs an advertiser-supported business and more boards sell more ads.

Not just by dragging us to 2 boards, but because there are thousands and thousands of people out there who care about travel, but couldn't care less about Frequent Flyer Miles.

If Randy can create another board (3 new boards at once was awfully optimistic) then it can start to attract an audience of its own, and bring new eyeballs for advertisers.

If this it, I see nothing sinister about this, as it is a wise business decision.

Of course, he may just want to keep the size of the board down and really wants a hierarchical structure. Either way, it doesn't work if traffic doesn't move over there. Clear, direct, and hopefully logical.

Back to emotional:

Whatever the reason really and truly doesn't matter, no matter how much you want it to. It's happening and it isn't going to stop. No number of your posts is going to change that; I'm sorry. You continue this heroic battle for it to change, and at some point you have to decide that the symbolic benefit of fighting the good fight can't carry you any further.

I hope that doesn't come across as a flame, because you've contributed so much to this board that it's just troubling to see you so distraught by the change. It's not a flame that is saying you're wrong, it's just an attempt to help you come to terms with the inevitable.

Again, I want to help, not hurt, so please email me or ask for clarification if any of this comes across wrong.

Ummm...Server load balancing?

Punki,

I was worried when I read your first post, envisioning random censorship. Yet you are only able to cite one post which was locked by RANDY with the following explanation:

"Time's up. Even Doc might agree that topics like this drag on without much to resolve. ... (snip)... Thanks for your comments and look forward to your similar contributions on topics of miles and points."

I think Randy made it pretty clear that he thought the continued discussion was inappropriate, and that he would appreciate us getting back to miles and cut out the gossip and speculation (yes, I posted on that thread too). Without actually saying so, I got the impression that Randy did not consider that thread 'perfectly civil' - dissenting opinions were posted - and not about anything having to do with miles, but peoples opinions about another poster here. It is rude to invite comments about other people behind their back. At any rate, I've never seen anything in the T&C stating that the only time a thread would be closed would be when had degenerated into a total flame war.

But I think the real issue is that you are unhappy with the new order, unhappy with all the changes. I think Randy has been real good about explaining that he wants things done his way, and I'm not convinced he owes any of us an explanation of 'why'. I don't know what else to say, except maybe that you're just going to have to deal with it. Yes, it was probably much much nicer for you back 'when', but this is now, and there are 1000's more posters than there used to be. The New User's Guide, the FAQs and the T&C pretty clearly slate in more than one place that posting in the correct category is a priority. Perhaps you could suggest to your seminar atendees with whom you share this valuable resource that board ettiquette requires that they familiarize themselves with the structure of FlyerTalk before jumping in. Please let's remember that we are all Randy's guests here.

We now have a direct link to both the "MilesBuzz" and a "TravelBuzz" forum on every single page here. One is for milage program related posts, the other is for general travel talk. I'm not sure what you would consider to be simpler or clearer than that, but even if the concept seems really strange and complicated to any newcomers, they will probably figure it out in no time, if we all set a good example for them.

I believe part of the objective is to direct posts where they belong so that people will become inclined to post in FT Travel too.
FewMiles..

No board, of any format, will ever please everyone. You speak of these people leaving, and of the "high cost" of the new system, yet every day I see more and more posts on FT Miles and FT Travel.

How many such people have reported back to you? Imagine how much easier it is for things to become "lost" when there is a great deal of off topic threads in many forums, with the effect of "burying" relevant threads back a page or two (or three).

Well then, let me assure you that there are plenty of people on FT who get frustrated or angered by long lists of off topic threads in forums.

Interesting. I do agree with you that people have an inclination to post wherever it is easiest. I do however disagree that they should be encouraged to do so, as you do. When I open Miles Buzz and I see a thread "What movies are playing on NW this month" (not an actual case, afaik), I don't think this is a good thing. People will "naturally" do do lots of things that are not good, against the common good, etc...

To suggest that the misposted 138 threads lend support to your position is quite a stretch. The (locked) thread "Dangerous virus warning!" from the Buzz was locked for good reason, and I am glad it was. (Instead of remaining open and becoming a magnet for the posting of any PC virus related story from the Chattanooga Daily News.)

You say you have never received a satisfactory answer to your question, but like some here I think you just don't like the answer you're getting. There are now many, many more people on FT than even when I started. In the Fall of 1999 I would keep up with FT by clicking "Click Here To View Today's Active Topics." I can't even imagine doing that now, so I have created shortcuts to the forums I do read. If every new member is sent to post every random question in a general forum, that forum will become the great trash collector of unrelated things, and I for one cannot imagine going in there that much.

The forum misposted threads does indeed hold 101 (updated) threads. And it speaks exactly to the issue of too many unrelated threads in the same forum. On the first page of this forum, here are the total number of replies each topic has received: 0, 0, 0, 5, 3, 0, 2, 2, 0, 0. I bet if you were to ask Randy, he would tell you the reasons so many are still in there is that, simply, there is little time available to move them, and he too doesn't like to send threads in Area 51.

tigertiger (agains!) states: "We now have a direct link to both the "MilesBuzz" and a "TravelBuzz" forum on every single page here. One is for milage program related posts, the other is for general travel talk. I'm not sure what you would consider to be simpler or clearer than that..."

Neither do I.

The rules of FT, which clearly outline the many cases that may lead to action on the part of FT, are outlined here:
http://www.flyertalk.com/rules.shtml
Your gestapo comments and "inside knowledge" to TB members is a bit over the top, as I would expect someone who was on TB (and remains on the AB?) would know a bit more about the operations of these bodies, and the policies of FT.

Besides the single thread you listed as evidence of these "capricious" rules, can you provide any others? You have been here long enough to know (and see from some of the comments posted) that threads having to do with doc's contribution to FT invariably become heated. Rather than allow it to become (more) so, as the answer sought had been answered, Randy closed it.

robb, thank you for your very thoughtful and intelligent post.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with Randy wanting to to create multiple boards for different audiences because he runs an advertiser-supported business and more boards sell more ads. As a matter of fact, that is precisely why I want the boards to be more user friendly and encourage greater participation. Well, ok, that and selfishly the fact that the more people who come to FlyerTalk the more opportunities there are to make new interesting friends.

I believe that the 2,000 people who have misposted at the top of FlyerTalk Miles have done so specifically because they do care a lot about miles, want to be part of a miles board and don't know where else to post a general question. These folks do not fall into the category of those thousands and thousands of people out there who care about travel, but couldn't care less about Frequent Flyer Miles and are great candidates for the Travel as opposed to Miles Board.

If that is Randy's goal, I too see nothing sinister about it, I just do not think it is a wise business decision to try to achieve that goal by making it difficult for the people who do care about miles, especially if his ultimate goal is increasing traffic all around.

You are right, he may just want to keep the size of the board down. I am not a technical type and don't understand the limitations that he may or may not face but keeping the size of the board down does not appear consistent with increasing advertising revenues.

I am unclear what specifically you mean by wanting a hierarchical structure, but I don't think there is anything that will be effective in moving new people who want to post on Miles Board over to Travel Board. You can, of course, create something new and exciting on the Travel Board that makes them want to post on the Travel Board, i.e. the Women's Forum or the GLBT Forum and I think that those are great ideas.

Your responses are indeed for the most part quite clear, direct, and very logical.

With regard to the emotional, my only serious emotion herein is a real saddness at the loss of folks who become frustrated and go away, whether they are new or old Flyer Talkers.

We know we are paying the price of lost participation. You may be right that no matter how much I want FlyerTalk to be as open and welcoming as possible and no matter how clear and logical my post and positions and ideas are, that nothing will change. I can accept that, but I feel far better about making a valiant effort and failing than I would about watching and being too timid to speak my mind. My purpose is not to "carry me any further, but to enhance FlyerTalk and make it a more welcoming, exciting, fun and intuitive place to be.

robb, your post most certainly doesn't come across as a flame and I honestly don't even see anyplace where you have disagreed with me in principle.

Please do not be troubled on my account. I am not personally distraught by this change in and of itself, I am just saddened because I know that it has discouraged and driven away folks who had the potential to become great FlyerTalk contributors and grdeat friends. I assure you that at my age I have long-since come to terms with the inevitable and am extremely grateful that I still have sufficient health, energy and interest that I still care about making new friends and protecting and enriching the vehicles that lead to new friendships.

It is very obvious that you want to help, not hurt, (as do I) and I am happy for this opportunity to learn more about you. Actually I am very impressed with your response and your attitude and sincerely hope that I will have the opportunity to get to know you better. Trust me, nothing came across wrong.

Well said. A "community" does not necessarily have to be a democracy. This board is not. It is a benevolent dictatorship, imo. Which is appropriate for this venue. If I want a different kind of board, I'll start one. Others have done the same.

Count me among that group.

Then you'll understand why your comparision seems jejune and offensive some.

Who is this "we"? As you have seen, a number of folks disagree with you. Every social situation involves "competing goods." You find it a value and a good to allow folks to post in the first topic they spy; maybe so, but it is surely in competition with the good that are host is seeking.

Quote:

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"> You may be right that no matter how much I want FlyerTalk to be as open and welcoming as possible and no matter how clear and logical my post and positions and ideas are, that nothing will change. I can accept that...

So can you now let this rest, illogical as you find it?

(Edited for spelling)

[This message has been edited by cblaisd (edited 04-13-2002).]

buenos d�as, amigos y enemigos del arturo,

arturo will post once again, as some people tend to disregard arturo's posts as something with no substance.

Arturo has a couple of "old country" sayings that he follows:

1.) How can you read the rules when the rules are not written? The person that owns the scroll and pen has/writes the rules.

2.) The person who has the Admonishistrator password can close any thread at anytime with any written or "thought-about" rule.

3.) Todas las reglas est�n feas y locas.

(Edited for spelling.)


------------------
Loving, Caring, Honest, Intelligent, Empathetic, Creative, and Giving.

[This message has been edited by arturo (edited 04-13-2002).]

Arturo,

If it's any support for you, no matter what language it is you write in, I find your posts are usually the smartest and well thought through in our threads

Arturo thanks you ScottC. Arturo does not want/need support. I just think that the bottom line of this whole thread is that He who OWNS the scroll and pen writes/enforces the rules, written or unwritten.

If this were Arturo's FlyerTalk Board, and Arturo had time, he would lock, close, move threads that he thought were "dead horsed", off topic, and unintelligent/unnecessary flames.

Short and simple, the answer to the question posed to start this thread is..........He who OWNS the scroll............

------------------
Loving, Caring, Honest, Intelligent, Empathetic, Creative, and Giving.

1st and formost Mikey 1003 is a he.... I just looked and was reasshured that I have all of my equipment in the right place

As to Delta....No moderators... if we want to discuss an issue we do.. if not it dies. If placed wrong, someone politely suggests that poster might repost.

Again, dear Punki is right. Something is rotten in Denmark. We dont need no stinkin moderators.... EXCEPT to stop flames, bad language or other just plain bad stuff.

arturo, PLEASE stop freaking us out with your English!! It's just not right...