No offense intended, as I too agree that Craig does a good job, but what sense does it make to appoint someone who's main access to FT is a 28.8K dial up and who by his own admission barely has the time to get to FT. Frankly Craig, you deserve a medal for doing the job with a 28.8 connection. Personally I would like to see some additional moderators (take some of the burden off people like Craig too). Punki and Pam have offered to volunteer in the past and I can't think of a better duo.

I also think that FT has improved of late without all the flame wars(then again I usually confine my visits to the Milesbuzz and the AA forums so don't know what is going on in the other forums) but that at times even the hint of a flame war is enough to shut down an otherwise interesting thread. While there are instances of people acting like babies I think the moderators need to be careful about just assuming that people will not be able to exert some self control and that a flame war will eventually develop.

FWIW I have referred over 100 people to FT since the beginning of the Inside Flyer *woods promo and many have e-mailed me to let me know what an awesome site they have found FT to be, so while things may not be perfect for all they are still pretty **** good for most

Umm, no offense intened, and not to minimize Punki's immense contributions to FlyerTalk, but given her continued opposition to Randy's desire for a more structured FT in favor of a more 'organic' approach, I can't see Punki being given the job of moderating anytime soon...

You're right, tho, the flaming seems to be limited to this forum almost exclusively now, so it looks like 90% of Craig's job these days is moving inappropriatly-placed posts. Maybe we should chip in for cable?

Thanks for the offer of chipping in for cable. The issue isn't affordability, I'd pay for it in a second if my idiot cable supplier (Adelphia) would offer broadband in my neighborhood. They digitized the cable system well over a year ago, but they can't seem to commit to when they will give us internet access. It's a comedy of errors, exaggerated by the fact the cable company now is in a cash crunch.

DSL is also not an option. Pacific "H"ell says we live too far away from the switching station (27,000 feet). Maximum distance we can be is 19,500 feet.

My next door neighbor has satellite internet access (Dish Network?) for business purposes. It is outrageously expensive (about $100/month) for what is essentially a 200K download, and 28K upload.
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...and now back to our regularly scheduled mud-slinging...

tigertiger writes:

This statement both surprises and baffles me as I most assuredly do not oppose a more structured FT. If you go back again and carefully read my posts I hope you will find that what I have said is that I feel the process of structuring FlyerTalk will be far more effective if it works with, not against posters natural inclinations. If you do find anything (that I wrote) that would give you a different impression, would you please be so kind as to point it out to me so that I may edit it for clarity?

While I firmly do believe that an alternative forum positioning scheme would be more effective, I fail to see how that would affect my moderation abilities. If you feel that it would, could you please explain how?

I believe you will also find that I have asked for a clarification of the rules and regulations regarding temporary bans and locked threads and indicated that I feel that all rules and regulations should be evenly applied to all. This information I believe should be clear to all, but most especially to anyone interested in the possibility of serving as a moderator.

Do you perhaps believe that all moderators must agree with Randy on all things? If this is the case, I doubt that anyone, including our most esteemed Craig would qualify. I pesonally believe that moderation of such a broad group of people will be far more effective if handled by a moderation team that contains several points of view.

IMHO, good moderation requires above all objectivity and I most certainly feel that I bring that to the table. I also have the habit of separating myself from my emotions and carefully reading and, trying to the very best of my ability to make sure I understand what people are really trying to say, before I respond, as politely as possible, to their posts--more traits which I think well serve an effective moderator. I am also naturally inclined to seek clarification when I am unsure about a given poster's intent, rather than jumping to conclusions based upon incomplete information.




[This message has been edited by Punki (edited 04-15-2002).]

Sorry, my mistake. Randy will certainly be happy to hear this.


And yes, I do think moderators need to be in harmony with Randy's desires, particularly during this transition phase when people are being trained to post in the correct forum. If a moderator's job is to move posts, then I think an effective moderator will be one who believes that the posts need to be moved. If Randy wanted to let people post where ever they were 'inclined' to, there wouldn't be 100 threads waiting to move into their new home.


[This message has been edited by tigertiger (edited 04-15-2002).]

Camera Guy. I read somewhere here posted by Randy that you received a lifetime ban from Flyertalk, so that was 'published' surely?

It is true that the job would require clear definition before I would accept it. I would not, for instance, be willing to move a post without a tracer because I think that causes far more harm than good, but I do not believe that our sole remaining appointed Moderator, Craig actually does this. I am under the impression, and please correct me if I am wrong, that Craig always locks threads that he plans to move, and leaves an explanation and a forwarding URL. I have no problem with that method of moving threads.

IMHO, a truly effective moderator's job includes far more significant tasks that moving threads. The most important of which is assisting in developing and maintaining a civil exchange of ideas--even very controversial ideas. I believe that the one of the most significant contributions a Moderator can make is to alert posters ASAP when their posts have gone over the line (i.e. made a personal attack upon another poster) and give him/her an opportunity to immediately edit his/her post. Then, if the moderator cannot contact the poster, or the poster is unwilling to edit his/her own post, I believe the moderator should edit that individual post.

I truly do think this method is far more effective in the long run and far less disruptive than allowing threads to turn into flame wars and then locking down the entire thread and/or banning participants. Naturally obscene threads should be removed immediately.

If the underlying moderation philosophy of FlyerTalk Moderation were very disparate, I obviously would not be able to accept the appointment.

There is IMHO, tigertiger a large gap between harmony and complete agreement. Actually I prefer to talk with people who can politely share ideas that are different from mine. (The emphasis, of course, must be on polite for it is vry difficult to hear people who attempt to converse in an obstreperous, confrontational tone.)

To quote my older brother, for whom I have the utmost respect and admiration, "I will never learn anything from someone who always agrees with me".

[This message has been edited by Punki (edited 04-15-2002).]

The danger in doing this kind of "forceful moderation" is that some FTers can effectively hijack an existing thread which has no flame wars. So lets say that there is a thread with no flames, and then someone interjects. Shoudn't that person be restrained (and the thread kept open)?

I'd rather read Randy's directives, than some 3rd party's interpretations of what they are.

I doubt if you've been avoiding the minefield. Referring to doc as "brooding" - (how do you know that he is?) does not appear to be avoiding the minefield.




[This message has been edited by PG (edited 04-15-2002).]

Yeah! And I bet my punctuaction stunk too.

PG writes:

Precisely, PG. A most excellent observation.

I also thank you NJDavid for clearly setting forth your ideas on moderation. It is through this type of non judgmental and unemotional exchange of ideas, that we grow in our understandings.

[This message has been edited by Punki (edited 04-15-2002).]

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[This message has been edited by chexfan (edited 04-16-2002).]

I just don't understand how some threads with seemingly harmless replies (i.e. ) get shut down, but a trip report with threatened flame wars rage on...

I just posted the same question within the "Should I continue to post trip reports?" thread over there... I find it completely illogical that those threads are allowed to smolder and burn if the objective is to step in front of threads that show potential for conflict??

I know that Trip Reports is unmoderated, and that poor Randy is only one guy..

We need more moderators.