Are there rules regarding locking threads?
 

In all the years that I have participated on FlyerTalk, I was always under the impression that threads would only (and should only) be locked if they developed into flame war.

Recently, however, it would appear that there are certain unknown rules governing the closing and locking of perfectly civil threads that are not published and very unclear. Is there someplace where guidelines covering thread closings are listed or are they totally capricious?

I have been trying very hard to understand and follow the new rules without much luck. Is it possible to list these new rules to help us understand this New Flyer Talk and the appropriate decorum thereon?

[This message has been edited by Punki (edited 04-15-2002).]

Hola, bonito Punki,

Arturo has a couple of "old country" sayings that he follows:

1.) How can you read the rules when the rules are not written? The person that owns the scroll and pen has/writes the rules.

2.) The person who has the Admonishistrator password can close any thread at anytime with any written or "thought-about" rule.

3.) Todas las reglas están feas y locas.

(Edited for spelling.)


------------------
Loving, Caring, Honest, Intelligent, Empathetic, Creative, and Giving.



[This message has been edited by arturo (edited 04-12-2002).]

Punki,

To me, it looks like if the moderator wants to lock or move the thread it's done. That is why I am SO AGAINST moderators-- EXCEPT-- for flame wars or poor or inflamatory language.

Talk boards have a mind and a life of their own. You want to comment you do... you dont.. you dont. If a topic becomes stagnant it dies for lack of attention.

So what if a post is inadvertantly placed in the wrong spot? Members of that thread either ignore it or suggest it be reposted. Look at Delta... we don't have some anal retentave moving, locking and otherwise messing with threads and it works!!!!!1

Gee, I wonder when or why that would ever happen! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

What a lovely thing to say about a fellow FT member who has agreed to volunteer his time so that as FT grows, the increasingly high number of misplaced topics does not get in the way of the relevant information.

Punki: We've got a bigger problem than locking of threads...someone kidnapped arturo and taught him English!!! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

SMessier, I don't believe that anyone is questioning Craig's fine moderation efforts, nor do I think that anyone has any argument with his moderation style. We all agree that Craig Rocks! I am simply referring to the random and inexplicable closing of properly placed, and civil threads for no apparent reason.

With regard to the constant movement of threads from Miles Buzz (a totally separate issue), while we all appreciate properly placed threads, this is a bothersome and ongoing problem that can only be solved by looking carefully at its source. This problem was, I believe, artificially created by the removal of a General Talk forum from the top of Flyer Talk Miles page. While some members who support the "thread movement philosophy" have put forth the rationale that it is necessary because "FlyerTalkers just need to be trained", the sad fact is that this is where new posters are (and will continue to be) most inclined to post general information.

Unfortunately, new members who can't find their posts are far more likely to simply go away than stick around long enough to be "trained". The only logical solution is to go with the flow and create an environment that is friendly, enabling and easy to navigate, rather than trying to push the elephant where it isn't going to go.

The "Move/Lock Threads Out of Miles Buzz" campaign has now been in effect for almost two months and has resulted in the movement and/or closure of 138 different topics that included in excess of 2,000 posts. While many established FlyerTalkers have been "trained" to simply not post there at all anymore, and many new posters have simply gone away, Miles Buzz continues to be loaded with General Talk posts that have little or nothing to do with earning miles: i.e, Security Will Raise the Cost of Travel, How Did Frequent FLyers Manage Before Online Everything, RTW Upgrade, Disgusting Airline Passenger Manners, What's Expected in First Class, Departure Tax, Southwest Going Beyond Peanuts, A Must Share Stupid Passenger Quote, etc.

This is one policy that bears re-evaluation, IMHO.

Punki, I have been following these discussions with interest for a while now. You have listed a number of threads that you feel do not belong in MilesBuzz and have not been moved, but can you provide me some of the threads that you say have been randomly locked? Are you sure they're not being locked prepatory to them being moved? I haven't noticed any, but I don't read every forum. I'd be interested to know if this is going on especially if there was no reason given for the locking. Thanks.

Well, I sure do wonder who mikey1003 had in mind when s/he wrote that the DL forum is free of an "anal retentive moving, locking and otherwise messing with threads ...". Perhaps you can enlighten me.

I would ask exactly what tigertiger asked -- what are these threads that were inexplicably moved/deleted/excorcised/excommunicated to which you refer? The Buzz has been a mess for some time. FT/Randy are trying to put some order in it, and Randy has already several times written to state this, explained the efforts to have threads located where they belong, etc... Indeed, I would suggest he has very specifically addressed your often stated concerns on the matter.

Given the seemingly continued growth of FT, I don't share your belief that the "new" management is driving many people away.

The problem with a friendly/enabling environment, is that -assuming such a holy grail exists- many (myself included) are often too lazy to read even the most minimal instructions, and will post anywhere it is easiest/most convenient to do so. In fact, I'd bet that even if FT had only 2 forums, some would post in the wrong one. Design an FT that even a fool can use, and only a fool will use it. There is an amazing amount of information here, and this requires, for better or for worse, a great deal of organization. You seem convinced this is futile or pointless or counterproductive. I shall have to disagree.

138 topics/2000 posts have been moved. Yes, so? Is this inherently a bad thing? Whenever I have seen a locked thread in Miles Buzz (except for the nasty ones), a new URL to the moved thread has been added. If this is not enough for someone to find their thread, what is?

tiger tiger, thank you for your inquiry. Here is the specific thread that got me wondering about the new policies. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum95/HTML/001884.html

Smeisser it is in fact true that new people have become frustrated with FLyerTalk and simply left the board entirely. I teach Frequent Flyer programs in several national forums. I always include the FlyerTalk website in both my handouts and my seminars. I also have "Punki" travel cards with the FT website that I hand out while traveling. As a result, I have recently received several calls and e-mails from people asking me travel related questions. When I referred them back to FlyerTalk (after answering their questions to the best of my ability, of course) they tell me that they have already tried that, but their post got lost so they weren't going back there.

This paragraph honestly confuses me:

Your arguments totally support my position, and then you turn around and say you disagree? Having "The Buzz" at the top of FlyerTalk Miles worked just fine for years and my bet is that it would still work just fine--an assumption supported by the fact that that is where people naturally post general travel posts. An assumption further supported by the 138 misposted threads and 2,000 misposted responses, plus the ones that I mentioned on the first page that have not yet been moved.

I absolutely do agree that we need organization and I also agree that people will always take the line of least resistance. It is for those exact reasons that it makes perfectly logical sense to set up the board in the way most people are most comfortable using it and yes, I do think it is futile and pointless and counterproductive to continue to attempt to force people to do something they are not inclined to do--especially in an environment where the real goal is to get them to volunteer to stay.

On the other side of that coin is this question: What could we possibly gain by trying to force people to post somewhere that they don't even know exists? What reason would here be for making it hard when it could be so easy?

You go on to write:

Yes, I honestly do believe that anything that drives people away or angers and frustrates them is inherently bad for FlyerTalk.

You are right that the 38 threads that have been locked and moved do carry a URL trail. There are also, however, 100 additional threads that have simply been moved to the Aisle of Lost Threads without being locked and without a trace. These are the ones that cause the serious confusion.

[This message has been edited by Punki (edited 04-12-2002).]

A number of the threads that are mentioned above subjectively could be candidates for moving. Notice the emphasis on the word “subjectively”. I can’t give anyone a firm answer on why they are still there, outside of the content doesn’t strike me as offensive for MilesBuzz.

What belongs in MilesBuzz? Well that subject (and thread) has gone on since early July, when I started moderating. Unfortunately we come back to the base word “subjective”.

I suppose I could become extremely anal and move anything that doesn’t clearly tie in to a mileage offer. This is not a palatable solution for me, for a number of reasons. The first is the amount of time it takes to be an aggressive editor. I just don’t have that available. Since October I have been out of town on business about every other week. When in town, I’m usually in my office 10-11 hours a day. My employer pays me a good living, and they should get my attention. When I’m at home, my wife deserves some face-time.

It would be great to be able to moderate while at work due to an excellent high-speed connection. Limited by my inability to do this, I’m usually relegated to FT’ing at home, which brings me to the second restraint on aggressive moderation, a lousy 28.8Kb dial up connection. To move, copy, or close a thread is very time-consuming even with a good connection, at 28.8Kb you want to scream.

The third restraint on more aggressive moderation, is that I want users to not feel that FT is under marshal law. I refer people to the threads posted elsewhere on how “biddingfortravel” treats scofflaws. This is not my idea of a fun place to participate on.

Craig


P.S. to Mikey: you and I will never completely agree on the level of moderation needed, but philosophically we’re not that far apart.

Punki,

I was suprised that thread on DOC was left open for as long as it was. I believe several people answered the question that YES they had heard from DOC. Not sure why we need to leave it open for more people to comment.

I am happy to see Randy close the thread.

William

Now, Wharvey I am even more confused than before.

Am I to infer from your post (presumably as a talkboard member with inside knowledge) that the latest philosophy/policy of FlyerTalk is that Randy's role is to personally shut down all threads once the initial question has been answered?

As I initially stated, I have for years been under the impression that threads would only be shut down if they were obscene or contained flame wars.

Again, could we please be directed to a listing of the new rules.

Haven't we (the collective FT community) discussed these types of things 'ad nauseum' already.

Remember this, this is Randy's board. All he asks is that you play by the rules. Some of those rules are in print, and some are not. That's life baby.

I question the need to constantly re-hash these conversations.

The old timers on flyertalk know the score, and the new ones will come to 'get it' over time.

HEY MODERATOR. Maybe you can move/close this thread too. Please. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Inside info! William, do you know something that I don't. Punki, as a past member of the Talk Board, you know very well there is no 'inside' info.

Originally Posted by Punki: What would the point be of having "somewhere else" if we arent going to point out the fact that it does exist?

If I ask my kids if they've washed their hands before dinner and they say "no". Do I just let them eat? Of course not. In order to make it more likely that they will remember next time, I send them back to the bathroom.

Perhaps a new user FAQ would be a good thing to have, but if the new users arent reading the forum titles to see where they should be posting, then perhaps they wont read the FAQ either.

FT is full of intelligent well travelled readers, and I'm having a hard time fathoming that people are having such a hard time finding forums. Perhaps because I spend all day in front of a computer, I forget that there are those who actually have a life http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif But regardless, I dont think the answer is to just let them post where they want. Once they find out that there is in fact a "Travel Buzz" or an OMNI, or a Hilton Forum they will not only find an appropriate place for their topic, or even the answer they were looking for already posted, but also a wealth of information they would never have happened upon if they had not been guided in that direction.

As in any case where there is growth or change, there will be some people not comfortable with it. They can choose to adapt, or not play with the big kids. I dont think its going to be beneficial to FT as a whole in the long run to cater to those who are unable to take the time to make a few extra mouse clicks

[This message has been edited by missydarlin (edited 04-12-2002).]