Covid19: Swiss refunds after cancellation
May 24, 2020, 3:02 am
#361
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: GVA
Programs: A3 *G, LX *G, AF *S
Posts: 761
I conclude there is nothing to do but wait. It's wrong and unlawful, and even the Airlines admit it.
Nevertheless credit companies and governments have sided with airlines to keep them alive.
Passenger options are limited. Lawsuits will take months or years, and enforcing the 7 day refund rule in court is pointless. After many months, just before the hearing, they would just refund and the case is out. Or they go bankrupt before... And you can get in line.
Below an email I got from BAZL in Switzerland, the federal office enforcing the EU rules. Hopeless. They say: Wait 2 months then write again or sue them.
---------- Forwarded message ---------Von: <[email protected]>Date: Do., DD. Apr. 2020, HH.MMSubject: AW: (ARILINE) verweigert Rückerstattung Sehr geehrter Herr f4free Wir nehmen Ihre Meldung zur Kenntnis. Die Verordnung (EG) Nr. 261/2004 gibt dem Passagier die Möglichkeit, bei annulliertem Flug eine Ticketkostenrückerstattung zu verlangen. Aufgrund der durch Covid-19 verursachten aussergewöhnlichen Situation bieten die Fluggesellschaften als weitere Option Fluggutscheine an. Der Passagier kann sich für diese Option entscheiden. Zurzeit sind auf europäischer Ebene Gespräche im Gang, ob anstelle der Ticketkostenrückerstattung auch Gutscheine ausgegeben werden können. Eine Anpassung der Verordnung in diesem Punkt wird diskutiert und die Schweiz wird die neue Regelung im Rahmen des bilateralen Luftverkehrsabkommens auf dem hierfür vorgesehenen Weg über den Gemischten Ausschuss übernehmen. Ungeachtet dessen können Sie eine Anzeige beim BAZL einreichen. Bis zur Klärung der rechtlichen Situation auf europäischer Ebene setzt das BAZL jedoch momentan Sanktionsverfahren betreffend Ticketkostenrückerstattung aus. Wir weisen an dieser Stelle darauf hin, dass Sie ihre Forderungen gegen Fluggesellschaften, wozu auch die Rückerstattung der Ticketkosten gehört, bei den Zivilgerichten einklagen können. Bitte kontaktieren Sie zuerst die Fluggesellschaft, um die Wahlmöglichkeiten zu prüfen. Aufgrund der besonderen Situation gehen zurzeit ausserordentlich viele Anfragen bei den Fluggesellschaften ein, weshalb die Bearbeitungsdauer länger als üblicherweise sein kann. Falls Sie mit dem Angebot der Fluggesellschaft nicht zufrieden sind oder innerhalb von 2 Monaten keine Antwort von der Fluggesellschaft erhalten, können Sie das BAZL-Meldeformular unter folgendem Link ausfüllen: http://www.bazl.admin.ch/pax-onlineformular Mit freundlichen Grüssen Bundesamt für Zivilluftfahrt Team Passenger RightsSection Economic Affairs Federal Department of the Environment,Transport, Energy and Communications DETECFederal Office of Civil Aviation FOCAAviation Policy and Strategy Mühlestrasse 2, CH-3063 Ittigen, Postal address: CH-3003 BernTel: +41 (0)58 465 95 96 mailto
[email protected] dmin.ch
Nevertheless credit companies and governments have sided with airlines to keep them alive.
Passenger options are limited. Lawsuits will take months or years, and enforcing the 7 day refund rule in court is pointless. After many months, just before the hearing, they would just refund and the case is out. Or they go bankrupt before... And you can get in line.
Below an email I got from BAZL in Switzerland, the federal office enforcing the EU rules. Hopeless. They say: Wait 2 months then write again or sue them.
---------- Forwarded message ---------Von: <[email protected]>Date: Do., DD. Apr. 2020, HH.MMSubject: AW: (ARILINE) verweigert Rückerstattung Sehr geehrter Herr f4free Wir nehmen Ihre Meldung zur Kenntnis. Die Verordnung (EG) Nr. 261/2004 gibt dem Passagier die Möglichkeit, bei annulliertem Flug eine Ticketkostenrückerstattung zu verlangen. Aufgrund der durch Covid-19 verursachten aussergewöhnlichen Situation bieten die Fluggesellschaften als weitere Option Fluggutscheine an. Der Passagier kann sich für diese Option entscheiden. Zurzeit sind auf europäischer Ebene Gespräche im Gang, ob anstelle der Ticketkostenrückerstattung auch Gutscheine ausgegeben werden können. Eine Anpassung der Verordnung in diesem Punkt wird diskutiert und die Schweiz wird die neue Regelung im Rahmen des bilateralen Luftverkehrsabkommens auf dem hierfür vorgesehenen Weg über den Gemischten Ausschuss übernehmen. Ungeachtet dessen können Sie eine Anzeige beim BAZL einreichen. Bis zur Klärung der rechtlichen Situation auf europäischer Ebene setzt das BAZL jedoch momentan Sanktionsverfahren betreffend Ticketkostenrückerstattung aus. Wir weisen an dieser Stelle darauf hin, dass Sie ihre Forderungen gegen Fluggesellschaften, wozu auch die Rückerstattung der Ticketkosten gehört, bei den Zivilgerichten einklagen können. Bitte kontaktieren Sie zuerst die Fluggesellschaft, um die Wahlmöglichkeiten zu prüfen. Aufgrund der besonderen Situation gehen zurzeit ausserordentlich viele Anfragen bei den Fluggesellschaften ein, weshalb die Bearbeitungsdauer länger als üblicherweise sein kann. Falls Sie mit dem Angebot der Fluggesellschaft nicht zufrieden sind oder innerhalb von 2 Monaten keine Antwort von der Fluggesellschaft erhalten, können Sie das BAZL-Meldeformular unter folgendem Link ausfüllen: http://www.bazl.admin.ch/pax-onlineformular Mit freundlichen Grüssen Bundesamt für Zivilluftfahrt Team Passenger RightsSection Economic Affairs Federal Department of the Environment,Transport, Energy and Communications DETECFederal Office of Civil Aviation FOCAAviation Policy and Strategy Mühlestrasse 2, CH-3063 Ittigen, Postal address: CH-3003 BernTel: +41 (0)58 465 95 96 mailto
[email protected] dmin.chWell, if it's as corrupted as this, then there is indeed no chance.
The only thing you could do in my opinion is to demand interest as of day 7 (in Swiss legal matters, it's normally 5% p.a.) - but for that you would need a lawyer to write to them.
May 24, 2020, 5:34 am
#362
Join Date: Feb 2014
Programs: Star Alliance Gold, AS MVP
Posts: 990
May 24, 2020, 6:06 am
#363
Join Date: Dec 2010
Programs: HHonorsGold, MarriottPlat, BAEC Gold, FlyingBlue Silver
Posts: 111
Ok so Swiss strikes back. Somehow they've managed to justify there is no ground for a chargeback as the flight was cancelled due to government restrictions thus there are no dispute rights according to Visa. I'll try to fight back, I don't see 261/2004 makes any distinction on reason for cancellation regarding cash refund, which they have refused to provide in the given 7 days.
May 24, 2020, 7:14 am
#364
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 495
Ok so Swiss strikes back. Somehow they've managed to justify there is no ground for a chargeback as the flight was cancelled due to government restrictions thus there are no dispute rights according to Visa. I'll try to fight back, I don't see 261/2004 makes any distinction on reason for cancellation regarding cash refund, which they have refused to provide in the given 7 days.
Been very disappointed with AMEX Platinum through all of this (Canadian). Insurance side is pathetic as well.
May 24, 2020, 12:12 pm
#365
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,553
Same for me. A week within the period to resolve the charge reappeared and Amex closed the dispute. I am pissed with both Swiss and AMEX. Note, I have never had a single email or message or anything from Swiss. Why either of them think I am paying $5 for a business ticket that was non-existent is beyond belief. Not quite sure what to do next and with whom.
Been very disappointed with AMEX Platinum through all of this (Canadian). Insurance side is pathetic as well.
Been very disappointed with AMEX Platinum through all of this (Canadian). Insurance side is pathetic as well.
I have several chargebacks in progress both with amex and MasterCard and the posts above make me nervous.
If a chargeback is rejected does the refund continue as normal anyway but just under the ridiculous timetables airlines have offered of multiple months?
Last edited by Dan1113; May 24, 2020 at 12:28 pm
May 24, 2020, 12:58 pm
#366
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: ZRH
Posts: 28
sorry to hear that they have come struck back, but not really a surprise. I had a chargeback approved last week so I guess its just a matter of time...
How long did it take for them to hit back? (from the time you got the letter of approval of your chargeback to the time that you were notified that they don't agree)
How long did it take for them to hit back? (from the time you got the letter of approval of your chargeback to the time that you were notified that they don't agree)
You are correct. The airline cancelled. One of your legal remedies is a full refund within 7 days. This is regardless of underlying reason and not subject to the extraordinary circumstances rule which only affects additional monetary compensation.
Did you not get a cancellation confirmation after you requested a refund?
My cancellation confirmation for my cancelled Swiss AMS-ZRH-HKG-AKL flight, which surprisingly was sent by Lufthansa despite ticket andbooking being on Swiss, contained the following text:
This reflects IMHO the recognition that a refund is due. Therefore, chargeback is justified if this refund does not appear within 7 days.
In your case, I would insist on the CC company rejecting Swiss’ arguments. If that fails then use all legal remedies in your juresdiction. Perhaps a legal claim against both the airline and your CC company might get their attention.
Did you not get a cancellation confirmation after you requested a refund?
My cancellation confirmation for my cancelled Swiss AMS-ZRH-HKG-AKL flight, which surprisingly was sent by Lufthansa despite ticket andbooking being on Swiss, contained the following text:
This reflects IMHO the recognition that a refund is due. Therefore, chargeback is justified if this refund does not appear within 7 days.
In your case, I would insist on the CC company rejecting Swiss’ arguments. If that fails then use all legal remedies in your juresdiction. Perhaps a legal claim against both the airline and your CC company might get their attention.
Yes I got the cancellation mail, sent it as part of the original chargeback documentation. Will try again!
Same for me. A week within the period to resolve the charge reappeared and Amex closed the dispute. I am pissed with both Swiss and AMEX. Note, I have never had a single email or message or anything from Swiss. Why either of them think I am paying $5 for a business ticket that was non-existent is beyond belief. Not quite sure what to do next and with whom.
Been very disappointed with AMEX Platinum through all of this (Canadian). Insurance side is pathetic as well.
Been very disappointed with AMEX Platinum through all of this (Canadian). Insurance side is pathetic as well.
May 24, 2020, 5:38 pm
#367
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Munich, Algarve, Sussex or S.F Bay Area
Programs: Mucci, BA Gold, A3*Gold, AA Plat, HH Gold, IHG Plat Amb, Marriott Plat
Posts: 4,163
I only received it after I called them the 2nd time to request they refund the flight they cancelled. 7 days after the confirmation that the ticket was sent to the “refund department”, I filed the chargeback request. Amex Germany immediately put a temporary refund on my account pending a response from Swiss. If no or inadequate response within 6 weeks the refund becomes final.
If Amex accept any BS response from Swiss to refuse the chargeback, they will be sued by me as jointly liable with their merchant for the refund under German consumer right laws. There are plenty if lawyers here who love to sue Lufthansa Group airlines and have got quite good at it.
If Amex accept any BS response from Swiss to refuse the chargeback, they will be sued by me as jointly liable with their merchant for the refund under German consumer right laws. There are plenty if lawyers here who love to sue Lufthansa Group airlines and have got quite good at it.
May 24, 2020, 7:16 pm
#368
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 495
I only received it after I called them the 2nd time to request they refund the flight they cancelled. 7 days after the confirmation that the ticket was sent to the “refund department”, I filed the chargeback request. Amex Germany immediately put a temporary refund on my account pending a response from Swiss. If no or inadequate response within 6 weeks the refund becomes final.
If Amex accept any BS response from Swiss to refuse the chargeback, they will be sued by me as jointly liable with their merchant for the refund under German consumer right laws. There are plenty if lawyers here who love to sue Lufthansa Group airlines and have got quite good at it.
If Amex accept any BS response from Swiss to refuse the chargeback, they will be sued by me as jointly liable with their merchant for the refund under German consumer right laws. There are plenty if lawyers here who love to sue Lufthansa Group airlines and have got quite good at it.
My account now shows $4800 for a business class flight that never operated. Incredible. I can't even see how Swiss consider it reasonable to represent this and AMEX to accept it. They had proof of the cancelled flights. When AMEX opens properly tomorrow I will be calling and asking W.T.F. they think I got for $4800. I will not pay a cent to AMEX.
May 24, 2020, 8:10 pm
#369
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: MEX
Programs: AC E75K
Posts: 4,171
Here’s a question for folks like @MaxFlyer, @Tafflyer, @citricut, @rosenkavalier, and others who have pursued the chargeback route:
Any idea what would happen if you cancel your credit card after the initial credit has been granted and before the 45/60/90 day response period expires?
Any idea what would happen if you cancel your credit card after the initial credit has been granted and before the 45/60/90 day response period expires?
May 24, 2020, 8:12 pm
#370
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2015
Location: BOS, YVR, ZRH
Programs: *G
Posts: 17,399
Here’s a question for folks like @MaxFlyer, @Tafflyer, @citricut, @rosenkavalier, and others who have pursued the chargeback route:
Any idea what would happen if you cancel your credit card after the initial credit has been granted and before the 45/60/90 day response period expires?
Any idea what would happen if you cancel your credit card after the initial credit has been granted and before the 45/60/90 day response period expires?
May 24, 2020, 10:52 pm
#372
Suspended
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: PVG, FRA, SEA, HEL
Programs: UA Premier Gold
Posts: 4,783
charges can still be issued to already-cancelled card - you'd still owe them.
May 24, 2020, 11:58 pm
#373
Join Date: Dec 2010
Programs: HHonorsGold, MarriottPlat, BAEC Gold, FlyingBlue Silver
Posts: 111
Expect Swiss to reply at 5 weeks and AMEX to accept.
My account now shows $4800 for a business class flight that never operated. Incredible. I can't even see how Swiss consider it reasonable to represent this and AMEX to accept it. They had proof of the cancelled flights. When AMEX opens properly tomorrow I will be calling and asking W.T.F. they think I got for $4800. I will not pay a cent to AMEX.
My account now shows $4800 for a business class flight that never operated. Incredible. I can't even see how Swiss consider it reasonable to represent this and AMEX to accept it. They had proof of the cancelled flights. When AMEX opens properly tomorrow I will be calling and asking W.T.F. they think I got for $4800. I will not pay a cent to AMEX.
My chargeback was confirmed 4 May, after there was some initial confusion whether Amex should follow this route as initially they thought Swiss doesn’t fall under EC261/2004 (I departed from an EU country). Once that was clarified, Amex approved a direct chargeback back to my account, rather than going into an inquiry first. So, no inquiry was sent to Swiss and it wasn’t a temporary placement of funds awaiting their response.
This means though that Swiss can still dispute with Amex, but my understanding is that’s harder for them than with an inquiry and time for them to respond apparently is shorter. Amex told me they will have to reopen investigation, in case they Swiss might come back.
Our national aviation authorities have already confirmed on their site that they will investigate and sanction valid complaints around this, even though it might be covid related. I have already filed a complaint and will be happy to forward additional documents to them, in case Swiss decides to dispute my chargeback.
Fingers crossed!
May 25, 2020, 12:12 am
#374
Suspended
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Gringolandia y LatinoAmerica a veces EU y Asia
Programs: AV, AA, BA, CM, UA, Hertz, Marriott, Hilton
Posts: 153
Our national aviation authorities have already confirmed on their site that they will investigate and sanction valid complaints around this, even though it might be covid related. I have already filed a complaint and will be happy to forward additional documents to them, in case Swiss decides to dispute my chargeback.
Fingers crossed!
Fingers crossed!
En verdad I know of these "gnomes." Years ago I had LX cancel a ticket on me prior to departure for no valid reason and I had to file against them in court. It is their "way of business" and it is why I have not booked with this airline since that time. I did obtain refund finally but with no other airline do I have to file court case to compel them to respect law. These current tactics do not surprise me.
I think if all customers hold the line and chargeback in addition file complaints with EU and their national enforcement bodies, thousands of them, then it will be more effective than only a small percentage.
I hope they go out of business. Si. If necessary to go to ZRH/GVA then I would prefer to fly FR to Suisse than LX. Porque FR is honest about what they do and do not do and yes, FR even refunds me before LX refunds you! AMazing!
May 25, 2020, 5:10 am
#375
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: GVA
Programs: A3 *G, LX *G, AF *S
Posts: 761
Swiss has once again changed their website:
while it stated clearly before, that you can also have a refund in case of a cancelled flight (but please do not call now, as we need to serve customers that have flights in the next 3 days), this information is now gone and only vouchers and rebookings are mentioned.
Does anyone still have a screenshot of the previous info ? I am asking since I still have a about 5 cancelled trips for which i wanted refunds, but I haven't called in yet due to the info on the webpage.
while it stated clearly before, that you can also have a refund in case of a cancelled flight (but please do not call now, as we need to serve customers that have flights in the next 3 days), this information is now gone and only vouchers and rebookings are mentioned.
Does anyone still have a screenshot of the previous info ? I am asking since I still have a about 5 cancelled trips for which i wanted refunds, but I haven't called in yet due to the info on the webpage.