Covid19: Swiss refunds after cancellation
May 26, 2020, 9:25 am
#391
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Canada, USA, Europe
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It just escalates. Amex sends you a demand to pay, you refuse. You get a debt collection agency hounding you. You refuse. Eventually you find that Amex has filed a claim in your local jurisdiction. You may be happy for this to play out because you think you're going to win, but there's a good chance you'll lose. Amex will claim that it is just a middleman, passing money from you to Swiss, and that you need to pay because it has paid Swiss. That Swiss won't give Amex the money back is not Amex's problem, it is your problem. You're likely going to lose, after which you can try to recover the money from Swiss. And that's another court case. I agree you have a case with Swiss, but not with Amex.
May 26, 2020, 10:19 am
#392
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May 26, 2020, 10:20 am
#393
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Amex will claim that it is just a middleman, passing money from you to Swiss, and that you need to pay because it has paid Swiss. That Swiss won't give Amex the money back is not Amex's problem, it is your problem.
In the UK there is Section 75.
Just a "middlemen" has already initiated a chargeback, which Swiss is fighting with a bogus argument. And after that AMEX is just claiming it has paid Swiss?
If I were AMEX, I would be nervous.
May 26, 2020, 12:59 pm
#394
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: LHR
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I had a charge back done with Amex for a Swiss flight. They did say that after paying me out that Swiss could still claim however as of today there is nothing heard.
May 26, 2020, 1:32 pm
#396
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 5
Hello everyone. (I think I've post this message wrongly in two other sub-forum, sorry if you read my message in other sub-forum) :/
As many here I got my flight with Swiss airlines cancelled in middle of April. My flight was BERLIN-ZURICH ZURICH-BERLIN
As soon as I got the email I request the refund and I patiently wait for 7 days.
On 8th day, I contacted my bank and started the chargeback process, wait for another 30 days and got I reply that my chargeback os denied because of. Swiss airlines send some receipts, including one that I agreed with terms and conditions, and based on their my request didn`t make any sense. And after telling my bank that I had nothing to do with the cancellation they replied me that a recent VISA policy change didn't allow them to continue with the chargeback and they close the case:
So I thought, OK, I might use this money travelling anyway, let's get the voucher. Easy, right? no:
After discussing this with Swiss airlines for sometime I got the following messages
Anyway, I've sent a message to my bank, let's see what is their reply. I just wanted to know if there's anyone in a similar situation and what was the outcome.
As many here I got my flight with Swiss airlines cancelled in middle of April. My flight was BERLIN-ZURICH ZURICH-BERLIN
As soon as I got the email I request the refund and I patiently wait for 7 days.
On 8th day, I contacted my bank and started the chargeback process, wait for another 30 days and got I reply that my chargeback os denied because of. Swiss airlines send some receipts, including one that I agreed with terms and conditions, and based on their my request didn`t make any sense. And after telling my bank that I had nothing to do with the cancellation they replied me that a recent VISA policy change didn't allow them to continue with the chargeback and they close the case:
Unfortunately, there was a recent update in the regulations Visa, which expresses that if one service was cancelled due to one governmental law, restriction or prohibition and the Merchant is providing a Voucher, Credit or reasonable alternative, then, we do not have chargeback rights in order to go further with the claim in Visa. As a consequence of this, regrettably, we cannot continue pursuing the claim further for those charges because we do not have chargeback rights to continue the process in Visa.
Partially used ticket
Your ticket cannot be processed online but remains valid. Please contact our Service Center to change your booking if you know your new travel requirements.
Your ticket cannot be processed online but remains valid. Please contact our Service Center to change your booking if you know your new travel requirements.
Hi, thank you for your inquiry and patience. After reviewing the details of your reservation, it seems that a chargeback request was made directly with your bank regarding the booking number A1B2C3D4. Therefore, the ticket status is not showing an open segment. We hope this clarifies. Kind regards, ...
Hi, apologies for the late response.Please contact your Bank as the transaction has been cancelled. Regards, ...
Hi, please note that the ticket was suspended as per previous advise. In this case, then the last say will be with your bank .You will need to contact them for further information regarding your refund. Hope that this clarify. Kind regards, ....
May 26, 2020, 2:20 pm
#397
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: CH, D, USA
Posts: 1,729
I think they are trying to create as many problems for people doing chargebacks, as they possibly can, hoping that those people like yourself will go to forums like this one and post about it - this way they can deter people from doing chargebacks, and force them to take the voucher and give them the free loan.
Very very wrong. But the bullying and scare tactic is certainly working with me. I decided not to do chargebacks against Swiss, after headaches with other airlines. I requested a refund from them and might still take the voucher when I can use it before they pay me.
Very very wrong. But the bullying and scare tactic is certainly working with me. I decided not to do chargebacks against Swiss, after headaches with other airlines. I requested a refund from them and might still take the voucher when I can use it before they pay me.
May 26, 2020, 2:22 pm
#398
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: CH, D, USA
Posts: 1,729
PS - the refunds games are just another drop in the full barrel. They already lost much of my business, and they are losing every single flight where I have a choice to not fly them. I was a SEN / TC Gold since the 90ies. And I am now FTL only by accident. The stupid kind that requalified 2019 and got nothing now. Many airlines are bad, but this one is ethically by far the worst, in my humble opinion.
May 26, 2020, 2:39 pm
#399
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: MEX
Programs: AC E75K
Posts: 4,171
If only there were a consumer advocacy agency who could represent and protect the interests of individual customers like us. Oh wait, the EU has one but is apparently powerless...
May 26, 2020, 11:52 pm
#402
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: CH, D, USA
Posts: 1,729
Swiss BAZL changed its position. If you have the time I think it now makes sense to file a complaint. Still they seem to sympathise with long processing times.
Wenn Sie mit der Antwort der Fluggesellschaft nicht zufrieden sind oder innerhalb von 2 Monaten keine Antwort von der Fluggesellschaft erhalten, können Sie eine Anzeige beim BAZL einreichen. Gestützt auf Ihre Anzeige werden wir Ihren Fall evaluieren und eine Stellungnahme bei der Fluggesellschaft einholen. Wir weisen in diesem Zusammenhang darauf hin, dass wir Anzeigen nach ihrem Eingang bearbeiten. Die Gespräche auf EU Ebene haben ergeben, dass der Passagier auch in der Covid-19 Situation die Rückerstattung der Ticketkosten gemäss Art. 8 der Verordnung verlangen kann. Entsprechend muss Ihnen die Fluggesellschaft die Ticketkosten zurückerstatten, wenn Sie keinen Gutschein möchten. Zurzeit sind aufgrund der ausserordentlichen Situation sehr viele Anfragen bei den Fluggesellschaften hängig, was zu einer längeren Bearbeitungszeit führt. Sie finden das BAZL-Meldeformular unter folgendem Link: http://www.bazl.admin.ch/pax-onlineformular
Wenn Sie mit der Antwort der Fluggesellschaft nicht zufrieden sind oder innerhalb von 2 Monaten keine Antwort von der Fluggesellschaft erhalten, können Sie eine Anzeige beim BAZL einreichen. Gestützt auf Ihre Anzeige werden wir Ihren Fall evaluieren und eine Stellungnahme bei der Fluggesellschaft einholen. Wir weisen in diesem Zusammenhang darauf hin, dass wir Anzeigen nach ihrem Eingang bearbeiten. Die Gespräche auf EU Ebene haben ergeben, dass der Passagier auch in der Covid-19 Situation die Rückerstattung der Ticketkosten gemäss Art. 8 der Verordnung verlangen kann. Entsprechend muss Ihnen die Fluggesellschaft die Ticketkosten zurückerstatten, wenn Sie keinen Gutschein möchten. Zurzeit sind aufgrund der ausserordentlichen Situation sehr viele Anfragen bei den Fluggesellschaften hängig, was zu einer längeren Bearbeitungszeit führt. Sie finden das BAZL-Meldeformular unter folgendem Link: http://www.bazl.admin.ch/pax-onlineformular
I conclude there is nothing to do but wait. It's wrong and unlawful, and even the Airlines admit it.
Nevertheless credit companies and governments have sided with airlines to keep them alive.
Passenger options are limited. Lawsuits will take months or years, and enforcing the 7 day refund rule in court is pointless. After many months, just before the hearing, they would just refund and the case is out. Or they go bankrupt before... And you can get in line.
Below an email I got from BAZL in Switzerland, the federal office enforcing the EU rules. Hopeless. They say: Wait 2 months then write again or sue them.
---------- Forwarded message ---------Von: <[email protected]>Date: Do., DD. Apr. 2020, HH.MMSubject: AW: (ARILINE) verweigert Rückerstattung Sehr geehrter Herr f4free Wir nehmen Ihre Meldung zur Kenntnis. Die Verordnung (EG) Nr. 261/2004 gibt dem Passagier die Möglichkeit, bei annulliertem Flug eine Ticketkostenrückerstattung zu verlangen. Aufgrund der durch Covid-19 verursachten aussergewöhnlichen Situation bieten die Fluggesellschaften als weitere Option Fluggutscheine an. Der Passagier kann sich für diese Option entscheiden. Zurzeit sind auf europäischer Ebene Gespräche im Gang, ob anstelle der Ticketkostenrückerstattung auch Gutscheine ausgegeben werden können. Eine Anpassung der Verordnung in diesem Punkt wird diskutiert und die Schweiz wird die neue Regelung im Rahmen des bilateralen Luftverkehrsabkommens auf dem hierfür vorgesehenen Weg über den Gemischten Ausschuss übernehmen. Ungeachtet dessen können Sie eine Anzeige beim BAZL einreichen. Bis zur Klärung der rechtlichen Situation auf europäischer Ebene setzt das BAZL jedoch momentan Sanktionsverfahren betreffend Ticketkostenrückerstattung aus. Wir weisen an dieser Stelle darauf hin, dass Sie ihre Forderungen gegen Fluggesellschaften, wozu auch die Rückerstattung der Ticketkosten gehört, bei den Zivilgerichten einklagen können. Bitte kontaktieren Sie zuerst die Fluggesellschaft, um die Wahlmöglichkeiten zu prüfen. Aufgrund der besonderen Situation gehen zurzeit ausserordentlich viele Anfragen bei den Fluggesellschaften ein, weshalb die Bearbeitungsdauer länger als üblicherweise sein kann. Falls Sie mit dem Angebot der Fluggesellschaft nicht zufrieden sind oder innerhalb von 2 Monaten keine Antwort von der Fluggesellschaft erhalten, können Sie das BAZL-Meldeformular unter folgendem Link ausfüllen: http://www.bazl.admin.ch/pax-onlineformular Mit freundlichen Grüssen Bundesamt für Zivilluftfahrt Team Passenger RightsSection Economic Affairs Federal Department of the Environment,Transport, Energy and Communications DETECFederal Office of Civil Aviation FOCAAviation Policy and Strategy Mühlestrasse 2, CH-3063 Ittigen, Postal address: CH-3003 BernTel: +41 (0)58 465 95 96 mail to [email protected] www.aviation.admin.ch
Nevertheless credit companies and governments have sided with airlines to keep them alive.
Passenger options are limited. Lawsuits will take months or years, and enforcing the 7 day refund rule in court is pointless. After many months, just before the hearing, they would just refund and the case is out. Or they go bankrupt before... And you can get in line.
Below an email I got from BAZL in Switzerland, the federal office enforcing the EU rules. Hopeless. They say: Wait 2 months then write again or sue them.
---------- Forwarded message ---------Von: <[email protected]>Date: Do., DD. Apr. 2020, HH.MMSubject: AW: (ARILINE) verweigert Rückerstattung Sehr geehrter Herr f4free Wir nehmen Ihre Meldung zur Kenntnis. Die Verordnung (EG) Nr. 261/2004 gibt dem Passagier die Möglichkeit, bei annulliertem Flug eine Ticketkostenrückerstattung zu verlangen. Aufgrund der durch Covid-19 verursachten aussergewöhnlichen Situation bieten die Fluggesellschaften als weitere Option Fluggutscheine an. Der Passagier kann sich für diese Option entscheiden. Zurzeit sind auf europäischer Ebene Gespräche im Gang, ob anstelle der Ticketkostenrückerstattung auch Gutscheine ausgegeben werden können. Eine Anpassung der Verordnung in diesem Punkt wird diskutiert und die Schweiz wird die neue Regelung im Rahmen des bilateralen Luftverkehrsabkommens auf dem hierfür vorgesehenen Weg über den Gemischten Ausschuss übernehmen. Ungeachtet dessen können Sie eine Anzeige beim BAZL einreichen. Bis zur Klärung der rechtlichen Situation auf europäischer Ebene setzt das BAZL jedoch momentan Sanktionsverfahren betreffend Ticketkostenrückerstattung aus. Wir weisen an dieser Stelle darauf hin, dass Sie ihre Forderungen gegen Fluggesellschaften, wozu auch die Rückerstattung der Ticketkosten gehört, bei den Zivilgerichten einklagen können. Bitte kontaktieren Sie zuerst die Fluggesellschaft, um die Wahlmöglichkeiten zu prüfen. Aufgrund der besonderen Situation gehen zurzeit ausserordentlich viele Anfragen bei den Fluggesellschaften ein, weshalb die Bearbeitungsdauer länger als üblicherweise sein kann. Falls Sie mit dem Angebot der Fluggesellschaft nicht zufrieden sind oder innerhalb von 2 Monaten keine Antwort von der Fluggesellschaft erhalten, können Sie das BAZL-Meldeformular unter folgendem Link ausfüllen: http://www.bazl.admin.ch/pax-onlineformular Mit freundlichen Grüssen Bundesamt für Zivilluftfahrt Team Passenger RightsSection Economic Affairs Federal Department of the Environment,Transport, Energy and Communications DETECFederal Office of Civil Aviation FOCAAviation Policy and Strategy Mühlestrasse 2, CH-3063 Ittigen, Postal address: CH-3003 BernTel: +41 (0)58 465 95 96 mail to [email protected] www.aviation.admin.ch
May 27, 2020, 12:30 am
#403
Join Date: Dec 2010
Programs: HHonorsGold, MarriottPlat, BAEC Gold, FlyingBlue Silver
Posts: 111
I’ve filed a complaint about it in my country and I’m more than happy to provide additional information, just in case Swiss starts to dispute my chargeback. I really think everyone should do, so that they potentially get sanctioned in multiple countries for this.
I can understand longer handling times and other airlines said the same. For example BA told me that my refund might take a little longer, nevertheless my card was credited in less than a week. Swiss however isn’t processing any refunds at all and they’re even openly saying it.....to me no processing at all is very different to longer processing times.
May 27, 2020, 2:49 am
#404
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Lawsuit against a major company and "easy" in the same sentence.... 
Unfortunately, time (spent in legal tussles) is money, too.
Unfortunately, time (spent in legal tussles) is money, too.
As shown here -> Lufthansa is usually paying as soon as a lawsuit has been filed against them.
https://www.rechteindeutig.de/luftha...klageerhebung/
May 27, 2020, 2:52 am
#405
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Zurzeit sind aufgrund der ausserordentlichen Situation sehr viele Anfragen bei den Fluggesellschaften hängig, was zu einer längeren Bearbeitungszeit führt.
Swiss and the Lufthansa Group Airlines are fighting chargeback - in cases, where they are legally obliged to pay a cash refund. So, Swiss is putting in resources to fight the chargebacks.
If there was a genuine issue about huge refund backlogs and the lack of staff to process the refunds -> ok, I would buy it.
But in a situation where Swiss/Lufthansa are fighting justified chargeback claims with bogus arguments, I won't buy it.