Rapid Rewards Enhancements!
Nov 7, 2007, 2:58 pm
#106
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Dallas, TX
Programs: WN A-list Preferred and CP, AA EXP, Hilton Diamond, RIP Kimpton
Posts: 853
Here's my problem with the system...I typically fly 10-15 flights/year. Most are on WN but some are on AA. I'm paying for virtually all of them as my company doesn't send me out for business that often. Thus, the perks that WN offered me (8 flights = 1 r/t flight, ability to check in early and get exit row seating) were something that I really valued.
I had 2 flights with my company on AA and then an "emergency" trip to LAS that I booked on AA (time issue and a bit cheaper) and so I was able to do a gold challenge and thus I have status with AA. Now, I'm faced with a situation where my chances of getting an exit row seat are virtually non-existent and at best I'll likely end up with an A50 or B#'d BP. For somebody that is 6'4"...having the ability to "choose" where I sit is important to me. Whether it's by "assigned" seating or "open" seating...I like having that ability.
As it is a virtual certainty that I won't have 32 one-way flights in a 12 month period (regardless of carrier) I've now lost any incentive to fly WN unless I'm using RR credits. Maybe if I'm able to earn enough credits through the credit card/AGR/CH/RR promo to get a CP then I'll have some incentive...but even then it will suck being stuck in non-preferred seats. Oh well...I'll stop the whining now. Enjoy your business customers WN!
I had 2 flights with my company on AA and then an "emergency" trip to LAS that I booked on AA (time issue and a bit cheaper) and so I was able to do a gold challenge and thus I have status with AA. Now, I'm faced with a situation where my chances of getting an exit row seat are virtually non-existent and at best I'll likely end up with an A50 or B#'d BP. For somebody that is 6'4"...having the ability to "choose" where I sit is important to me. Whether it's by "assigned" seating or "open" seating...I like having that ability.
As it is a virtual certainty that I won't have 32 one-way flights in a 12 month period (regardless of carrier) I've now lost any incentive to fly WN unless I'm using RR credits. Maybe if I'm able to earn enough credits through the credit card/AGR/CH/RR promo to get a CP then I'll have some incentive...but even then it will suck being stuck in non-preferred seats. Oh well...I'll stop the whining now. Enjoy your business customers WN!
Nov 7, 2007, 2:59 pm
#107
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Programs: AC SE100K, F9 100k, NK Gold, UA *S, Hyatt Glob, Bonvoy Titanium
Posts: 5,207
With the new boarding system, Southwest increased the A group to 60. So the 13 extra A's absorbs the 13 (10% of avail seats) "business select" tickets who get an automatic A. 13 A's added, 13 A's taken away.
One issue I've seen in this thread is fliers who earn enough partner credits to fly on award tickets all the time will not earn an automatic A. They may even earn a CP, but still no automatic A until they take 32 revenue flights. For WN to have done this, I suspect there is a giant number of folks that fall into that category.
To prevent "Automatic A" from turning into "Automatic A or B" Southwest apparently needed a way to restrict the # (without setting the # higher than 16 round trips in 1 year). Although someone who "earns" dozens or hundreds of credits a year may feel cheated, truthfully they aren't Southwest's "REVENUE" customers. Sure the partner paid for the RR credit. But money did not change hands directly from the RR credit earner and Southwest, in the form of an airline ticket. Denying a PAID airfare traveller with 16 round trips an automatic A because a bunch of others on the flight earned a ton of partner credits doesn't sound that good for business.
BTW, The cheapest was to buy yourself into an Automatic A for a year + 2 round trip awards is to fly 16 $50 round trip ding fares ($800). Had they included partner credits, FTers could have all gotten into the Automatic A for a year gravy train with only TWO credit card applications.
It's at least good to see that Southwest will reserve the A's in order of the highest # of round trips in the past year "among other factors." I'd venture to guess those other factors (or at least a tiebreaker factor) include overall WN revenue in the past 12 months.
Although I'll file this away in the "not going to happen" category, it'd be nice to see additional details print on the A boarding passes. A "thanks for business select, here is your A1" or "thanks for 29 paid round trips in the past year, A14" would be nice.. And it would give curious passengers something to compare with others in front of them in line.
One issue I've seen in this thread is fliers who earn enough partner credits to fly on award tickets all the time will not earn an automatic A. They may even earn a CP, but still no automatic A until they take 32 revenue flights. For WN to have done this, I suspect there is a giant number of folks that fall into that category.
To prevent "Automatic A" from turning into "Automatic A or B" Southwest apparently needed a way to restrict the # (without setting the # higher than 16 round trips in 1 year). Although someone who "earns" dozens or hundreds of credits a year may feel cheated, truthfully they aren't Southwest's "REVENUE" customers. Sure the partner paid for the RR credit. But money did not change hands directly from the RR credit earner and Southwest, in the form of an airline ticket. Denying a PAID airfare traveller with 16 round trips an automatic A because a bunch of others on the flight earned a ton of partner credits doesn't sound that good for business.
BTW, The cheapest was to buy yourself into an Automatic A for a year + 2 round trip awards is to fly 16 $50 round trip ding fares ($800). Had they included partner credits, FTers could have all gotten into the Automatic A for a year gravy train with only TWO credit card applications.
It's at least good to see that Southwest will reserve the A's in order of the highest # of round trips in the past year "among other factors." I'd venture to guess those other factors (or at least a tiebreaker factor) include overall WN revenue in the past 12 months.
Although I'll file this away in the "not going to happen" category, it'd be nice to see additional details print on the A boarding passes. A "thanks for business select, here is your A1" or "thanks for 29 paid round trips in the past year, A14" would be nice.. And it would give curious passengers something to compare with others in front of them in line.
Last edited by expert7700; Nov 7, 2007 at 3:09 pm
Nov 7, 2007, 3:01 pm
#108
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN Companion Pass, A-list preferred, Hyatt Globalist; United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 21,625
Nov 7, 2007, 3:04 pm
#109
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: DFW
Programs: DL PM, .6MM; AA Plat; Marriott Platinum Premier
Posts: 4,891
"hello WN? This is the shark calling. You appear to have just jumped completely over me!"
Am I the only person who sees all these changes as a case of a solution looking for a problem?
IMHO, one of WN's biggest strengths has ALWAYS been its simplicity. Up until this announcement, that is. Why does WN want to go so far towards emulating the legacy carriers' business model? And what is up with an A bp no longer being an A bp? Its now an A with a number attached? How much extra time will it take to enforce those numbers? These changes just push me further into AA's arms. *sign*
Am I the only person who sees all these changes as a case of a solution looking for a problem?
IMHO, one of WN's biggest strengths has ALWAYS been its simplicity. Up until this announcement, that is. Why does WN want to go so far towards emulating the legacy carriers' business model? And what is up with an A bp no longer being an A bp? Its now an A with a number attached? How much extra time will it take to enforce those numbers? These changes just push me further into AA's arms. *sign*
Nov 7, 2007, 3:04 pm
#110
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Dallas, TX
Programs: WN A-list Preferred and CP, AA EXP, Hilton Diamond, RIP Kimpton
Posts: 853
Thus, Southwest needed a way to restrict the # of Automatic A's (without setting the # higher than 16 round trips in 1 year). Although someone who "earns" dozens or hundreds of credits a year may feel cheated, truthfully they aren't Southwest's "REVENUE" customers. Sure the partner paid for the RR credit. But money did not change hands directly from the RR credit earner and Southwest, in the form of an airline ticket. Denying a PAID airfare traveller with 16 round trips an automatic A because a bunch of others on the flight earned a ton of partner credits doesn't sound that good for business.
Nov 7, 2007, 3:06 pm
#111
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN Companion Pass, A-list preferred, Hyatt Globalist; United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 21,625
Remember the good old days when legacy miles were worth 1.5 to 2.0 cents? They are now worth half of that due to the additional restrictions.
If the new "Freedom" awards cause a big reduction in "regular" award availability, then that incremental credit is worth $8 to $10.
In no instance is a Southwest award worth $640. Ever.
If the new "Freedom" awards cause a big reduction in "regular" award availability, then that incremental credit is worth $8 to $10.
In no instance is a Southwest award worth $640. Ever.
Gary Kelly said today that Southwest no longer has a fare cap. If the Freedom Awards did not carry blackout dates, I could imagine instances where I might use one. $700 round-trip fares on Southwest may be more common than you expect in 2008.
Nov 7, 2007, 3:07 pm
#112
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: DFW
Programs: DL PM, .6MM; AA Plat; Marriott Platinum Premier
Posts: 4,891
This is going to be a big problem as I would imagine that virtually all A-Listers are also CP. This means that our companions travel as CP companions most of the time and thus will not be able to earn A-List status on their own. My spouse will not be happy about having to board seperately at the end of the line. And we all know how much we love those people who try to "save" seats after they have boarded. I hope that my marriage survives this one!!
Nov 7, 2007, 3:08 pm
#113
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN Companion Pass, A-list preferred, Hyatt Globalist; United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 21,625
None. That's been tested.
As to whether the new business will outweigh the loss of discount customers and the cost of the changes, the jury is still out. Gary Kelly says that it will bring in $100M of additional revenue. If they can provide priority screening, the revenue boost will be much larger. Just my opinion.
As to whether the new business will outweigh the loss of discount customers and the cost of the changes, the jury is still out. Gary Kelly says that it will bring in $100M of additional revenue. If they can provide priority screening, the revenue boost will be much larger. Just my opinion.
Nov 7, 2007, 3:11 pm
#114
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: DFW
Programs: DL PM, .6MM; AA Plat; Marriott Platinum Premier
Posts: 4,891
None. That's been tested.
As to whether the new business will outweigh the loss of discount customers and the cost of the changes, the jury is still out. Gary Kelly says that it will bring in $100M of additional revenue. If they can provide priority screening, the revenue boost will be much larger. Just my opinion.
As to whether the new business will outweigh the loss of discount customers and the cost of the changes, the jury is still out. Gary Kelly says that it will bring in $100M of additional revenue. If they can provide priority screening, the revenue boost will be much larger. Just my opinion.
it is funny though... in one fell swoop, GK has eliminated my single favorite aspect of flying WN... that i could do OLCI and get an A bp (even with sequence #30); show up at the gate an hour early and get either a bulkhead or exit row seat (often an aisle in row 1).
Nov 7, 2007, 3:15 pm
#115
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Programs: DL MM Gold
Posts: 1,676
Also: "Please do not trip over our previously-seated Business Select customers, who are enjoying their complimentary pre-takeoff drink."
Nov 7, 2007, 3:15 pm
#116
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 17,427
I think WN management is vastly overestimating the effect on business revenue and underestimating the loss of leisure revenue, but only time will tell.
People who fly enough to be A-listers (or who pay full fare) already know how to work the system for the A boarding card. While this may enhance their experience slightly, it won't increase revenues. Many already reserve months in advance for those weekly commutes, and won't be buying up to BS fares just for a free drink.
People who pay higher fares on legacy carriers do so because they value the benefits, namely upgrades to F, priority security lines and international awards. WN does not and will not offer any of these perks, so they are unlikely to change horses just for a free drink and a better shot at a nice coach seat. The 2x RR for transcons isn't going to enhance revenues either as most frequent business travelers get more legroom and better service from the competition.
Occasional leisure travelers such as myself are now going to take a hard look at the competition, particularly when the price is equivalent. If the choice is a middle seat on WN vs. E+ on UA, plus a more convenient airport, I'll be abandoning ship when my CP expires.
People who fly enough to be A-listers (or who pay full fare) already know how to work the system for the A boarding card. While this may enhance their experience slightly, it won't increase revenues. Many already reserve months in advance for those weekly commutes, and won't be buying up to BS fares just for a free drink.
People who pay higher fares on legacy carriers do so because they value the benefits, namely upgrades to F, priority security lines and international awards. WN does not and will not offer any of these perks, so they are unlikely to change horses just for a free drink and a better shot at a nice coach seat. The 2x RR for transcons isn't going to enhance revenues either as most frequent business travelers get more legroom and better service from the competition.
Occasional leisure travelers such as myself are now going to take a hard look at the competition, particularly when the price is equivalent. If the choice is a middle seat on WN vs. E+ on UA, plus a more convenient airport, I'll be abandoning ship when my CP expires.
I honestly don't think WN is "doing enough" here to attract many more biz travellers. The benefits are pretty meager: maybe frequent WN travellers value an "A" highly, but I don't think the typical non-WN biz traveller values it that highly (if they even understand it). And to now have to pay extra for it -- when the only other thing they're tossing in is a drink and a modest hard-to-understand additional ff credit? I'm sorry, but "we legacy platinums" aren't giving up our upgrades, lounges and free tickets to Europe to get an A and a beer under these terms.
It also seems like the benefits are modest for existing WN biz travellers. Those paying their own money will, undoubtedly, do their best to avoid the new higher BS fares (they've got plenty of drink coupons and know to call 24 hours in advance for an A). I don't see folks paying for the extra RR credits. Whether pax whose companies pay the tab will spring for the extra money remains the $64,000 question. My guess is that it is this incremental revenue pool that WN is chasing here.
Finally -- and fortunately -- I don't think the BS product damages the "WN experience" for most leisure customers (including flyertalk denizens). Outside the Texas and California biz corridors, I just don't think you're going to find many folks with 32 WN flight credits "cutting the line." So that just leaves the BS travellers. I'm skeptical they're going to sell many of these tickets -- unless, of course, the cheaper buckets have already disappeared and this becomes an upsale device. It pretty much just means you need to be even more vigilant to call 24 hours before departure. Just another modest annoyance, I guess.
Nov 7, 2007, 3:17 pm
#117
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Dallas, TX
Programs: WN A-list Preferred and CP, AA EXP, Hilton Diamond, RIP Kimpton
Posts: 853
fair enough about the time...
it is funny though... in one fell swoop, GK has eliminated my single favorite aspect of flying WN... that i could do OLCI and get an A bp (even with sequence #30); show up at the gate an hour early and get either a bulkhead or exit row seat (often an aisle in row 1).
it is funny though... in one fell swoop, GK has eliminated my single favorite aspect of flying WN... that i could do OLCI and get an A bp (even with sequence #30); show up at the gate an hour early and get either a bulkhead or exit row seat (often an aisle in row 1).
Nov 7, 2007, 3:18 pm
#118
Original Member and FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Kansas City, MO, USA
Programs: DL PM/MM, AA ExPlat, Hyatt Glob, HH Dia, National ECE, Hertz PC
Posts: 16,579
Nov 7, 2007, 3:18 pm
#119
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Dallas, TX
Programs: WN A-list Preferred and CP, AA EXP, Hilton Diamond, RIP Kimpton
Posts: 853
Nov 7, 2007, 3:22 pm
#120
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 17,427
Oh, one modest additional "bad thing" for WN leisure customers -- the implementation of a "double points" award.
It's bad because, as I mentioned in a thread earlier this week, capacity controls are like crack to airlines. Oh, sure, WN will deny they're changing award availability, and they may even THINK they won't. But once this cat is out the bag, you can't put it back in.
So while current capacity controls on rapid rewards are extremely modest, I am near certain they will grow -- as they have at EVERY OTHER AIRLINE that has implemented them. And offering the two-tiered award structure lays the infrastructure for this damaging trend. I'm sure everyone who's a member of a legacy carriers frequent flyer program knows all about it.
It's bad because, as I mentioned in a thread earlier this week, capacity controls are like crack to airlines. Oh, sure, WN will deny they're changing award availability, and they may even THINK they won't. But once this cat is out the bag, you can't put it back in.
So while current capacity controls on rapid rewards are extremely modest, I am near certain they will grow -- as they have at EVERY OTHER AIRLINE that has implemented them. And offering the two-tiered award structure lays the infrastructure for this damaging trend. I'm sure everyone who's a member of a legacy carriers frequent flyer program knows all about it.