China Airlines announces nonstop TPE- ONT (Ontario)
Dec 20, 2018, 10:27 am
#241
Join Date: May 2018
Location: LAX, MEX, MLM, ONT, SAL
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Perhaps you're right since they're not selling their Eco Saver or Eco Semi Flex fares. It's just their Eco Flex or PY, and Business fares they're selling for those days. I checked the seating, and the A350 is one third full. Perhaps what's happening is that a bulk of the booked Eco Saver fares were done through the ethnic agencies in the SGV area and are waiting as the days come close to departure for seat selection. I've seen this before for flights to SAL were most of the Central American agencies in LA book flights and leave it close to departure or the day for check in for seat selection, especially with AV. Though, I'll be frank I was surprised to see the mark up, I thought for a moment, they've crossed passed the subsidy, and this is the actual pricing from ONT. Though, I checked the next two weeks, and it goes back to regular pricing.
Dec 21, 2018, 8:55 pm
#243
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Technically the route would survive if they can keep the load factor with LAX fares, just not as profitable with less cargo in the belly. However, they do have a niche market they can charge if people really aim to avoid LAX as pax can use TPE as a transfer point to major Asia cities. With the VIPs being price sensitive, I really doubt they can command a much higher price than going through LAX. Probably $50-100 higher like how CI 5 is priced compare to CI 7?
Dec 21, 2018, 11:41 pm
#244
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Technically the route would survive if they can keep the load factor with LAX fares, just not as profitable with less cargo in the belly. However, they do have a niche market they can charge if people really aim to avoid LAX as pax can use TPE as a transfer point to major Asia cities. With the VIPs being price sensitive, I really doubt they can command a much higher price than going through LAX. Probably $50-100 higher like how CI 5 is priced compare to CI 7?
Dec 21, 2018, 11:43 pm
#245
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I think we are just at the point where we can say this route is safe for the long term as LF is similar if not slightly higher than LAX. Smaller plane and better timing has worked. I doubt CI will change things up now for a while as 2019 is coming I am pretty sure they will be focusing on new routes to plan and announce. As Coolfish mentioned they may next year up the aircraft to a B777 for short time during peak season if it does not reduce yield too much.
Dec 21, 2018, 11:51 pm
#246
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Given the location, the ONT flights *should* be going out very cargo heavy - SGV east to Ontario is pretty much Warehouse Land and much of the Asian trade and wholesaling activities are going on in that area. If CI is not maxing out the cargo capacity and potential revenue on that flight, they are screwing up the cargo side almost as badly as the passenger side.
CI can only get revenue from passengers at the moment. Maybe one day when 4-5+ planes fly long hual out of ONT daily it might change. (Thanks cool)
Last edited by tris06; Dec 22, 2018 at 6:01 am
Dec 22, 2018, 12:00 am
#247
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Given the location, the ONT flights *should* be going out very cargo heavy - SGV east to Ontario is pretty much Warehouse Land and much of the Asian trade and wholesaling activities are going on in that area. If CI is not maxing out the cargo capacity and potential revenue on that flight, they are screwing up the cargo side almost as badly as the passenger side.
China Airlines unfortunately does not own it's ground operations in ONT so they will need to depend on others to get everything sorted such as trucking and etc. and I think LAX has a upper hand there. I think this was previously discussed that the cargo here for DHL and UPS is different than the cargo for CI.
Dec 22, 2018, 1:32 pm
#248
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I will keep it short but this has been discussed many times before. Simply put it is the wrong type of cargo system at the airport that commercial airlines cannot pick up cargo at ONT unless it comes from LAX first. CI is not stupid just it is not economical to set up this up at ONT for 1 airline. ONT needs a dedicated customs inspections process ( my wording might not be completely correct on this) for cargo. UPS I think I remember others saying has a facility but it is in house (completely financed by UPS personally so they wont or cant share the facilities to do this).
CI can only get revenue from passengers at the moment. Maybe one day when 4-5+ planes fly long hual out of ONT daily it might change. (Thanks cool)
CI can only get revenue from passengers at the moment. Maybe one day when 4-5+ planes fly long hual out of ONT daily it might change. (Thanks cool)
Not only are the human passengers much closer to ONT, but all of the cargo customers, copack facilities, brokers, and end shipper/receivers are right there too. This should be the airport's number one priority to remedy if it has any remote hope whatsoever of a long term gain of global ops from LAX given the eastward migration of Asia-focused customers away from the LAX catchment.
Having said that, UPS does in fact act as an outsourced vendor for supply chain management, and they could, with the right contract agreement, act as a cargo agent for CI using their trucks and airport facilities for clearance and last-mile transit, but it's possible the cost is just not reasonable vs keeping all cargo operations at LAX. I see CI flying cargo-only 747s through LAX anyway, so maybe they keep most of the cargo on dedicated flights and the passenger aircraft are cargo-light by choice? I don't know the answer.
Dec 22, 2018, 6:18 pm
#249
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Of course it is not economical if an agent is working on 1 plane daily. While the B777 and A350 have capacity to take some cargo it is very small amounts (less than 10 tonnes). So it is just not efficient for them to bother with it. Once other carriers start flying long hual to Asia then it is possible.
Dec 25, 2018, 4:04 am
#250
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For November, the number for CI when you add up both LAX and ONT is comparable to last year's load factor. However, last year at the same month it was 12 weekly LAX and now it's 1 daily LAX and 1 daily ONT. BR's load also went up for November, so it's likely CI still lost some pax there.
Code:
Date CAL/LAX EVA/LAX CAL/ONT 2018/11 18,797/21,122 89.0 49,622/58,470 84.9 15,867/18,360 86.4 2018/10 18,858/22,196 85.0 48,767/60,115 81.1 13,697/16,514 82.9 2018/09 17,803/21,480 82.9 43,777/55,836 78.4 10,656/14,678 72.6 2018/08 20,382/22,554 90.4 54,173/61,011 88.8 15,439/20,406 75.7 2018/07 19,800/22,196 89.2 52,194/59,106 88.3 15,186/22,196 68.4 2018/06 19,312/21,480 89.9 50,626/58,147 87.1 15,442/21,480 71.9 2018/05 18,378/21,838 84.2 47,957/60,438 79.3 12,857/22,196 57.9 2018/04 19,202/21,838 87.9 48,167/58,470 82.4 12,448/21,480 58.0 2018/03 30,424/37,232 81.7 50,816/60,025 84.7 3,571/ 4,654 76.7 2018/02 32,398/39,738 81.5 46,463/54,747 84.9 2018/01 34,723/40,096 86.6 51,816/59,885 86.5 610/ 716 85.2
Code:
LAX CAL EVA 2017/12 33,593/39,380 85.3 50,250/60,721 82.8 2017/11 34,676/40,454 85.7 46,802/58,127 80.5 2017/10 34,505/42,244 81.7 47,968/60,448 79.4 2017/09 30,731/43,318 70.9 40,805/57,754 70.7 2017/08 38,965/44,392 87.8 53,185/60,831 87.4 2017/07 38,394/44,750 85.8 48,474/60,185 80.5 2017/06 37,660/42,602 88.4 47,839/58,813 81.3 2017/05 38,654/44,034 87.8 48,657/60,268 80.7 2017/04 35,540/43,676 81.4 47,554/58,267 81.6 2017/03 32,630/43,676 74.7 45,753/60,738 75.3 2017/02 31,291/40,096 78.0 41,727/51,837 80.5 2017/01 39,714/44,750 88.7 53,142/57,520 92.4
Dec 25, 2018, 9:59 am
#251
Join Date: May 2018
Location: LAX, MEX, MLM, ONT, SAL
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Posts: 127
For November, the number for CI when you add up both LAX and ONT is comparable to last year's load factor. However, last year at the same month it was 12 weekly LAX and now it's 1 daily LAX and 1 daily ONT. BR's load also went up for November, so it's likely CI still lost some pax there.
Date CAL/LAX EVA/LAX CAL/ONT
2018/11 18,797/21,122 89.0 49,622/58,470 84.9 15,867/18,360 86.4
2018/10 18,858/22,196 85.0 48,767/60,115 81.1 13,697/16,514 82.9
2018/09 17,803/21,480 82.9 43,777/55,836 78.4 10,656/14,678 72.6
2018/08 20,382/22,554 90.4 54,173/61,011 88.8 15,439/20,406 75.7
2018/07 19,800/22,196 89.2 52,194/59,106 88.3 15,186/22,196 68.4
2018/06 19,312/21,480 89.9 50,626/58,147 87.1 15,442/21,480 71.9
2018/05 18,378/21,838 84.2 47,957/60,438 79.3 12,857/22,196 57.9
2018/04 19,202/21,838 87.9 48,167/58,470 82.4 12,448/21,480 58.0
2018/03 30,424/37,232 81.7 50,816/60,025 84.7 3,571/ 4,654 76.7
2018/02 32,398/39,738 81.5 46,463/54,747 84.9
2018/01 34,723/40,096 86.6 51,816/59,885 86.5 610/ 716 85.2
LAX CAL EVA
2017/12 33,593/39,380 85.3 50,250/60,721 82.8
2017/11 34,676/40,454 85.7 46,802/58,127 80.5
2017/10 34,505/42,244 81.7 47,968/60,448 79.4
2017/09 30,731/43,318 70.9 40,805/57,754 70.7
2017/08 38,965/44,392 87.8 53,185/60,831 87.4
2017/07 38,394/44,750 85.8 48,474/60,185 80.5
2017/06 37,660/42,602 88.4 47,839/58,813 81.3
2017/05 38,654/44,034 87.8 48,657/60,268 80.7
2017/04 35,540/43,676 81.4 47,554/58,267 81.6
2017/03 32,630/43,676 74.7 45,753/60,738 75.3
2017/02 31,291/40,096 78.0 41,727/51,837 80.5
2017/01 39,714/44,750 88.7 53,142/57,520 92.4
Date CAL/LAX EVA/LAX CAL/ONT
2018/11 18,797/21,122 89.0 49,622/58,470 84.9 15,867/18,360 86.4
2018/10 18,858/22,196 85.0 48,767/60,115 81.1 13,697/16,514 82.9
2018/09 17,803/21,480 82.9 43,777/55,836 78.4 10,656/14,678 72.6
2018/08 20,382/22,554 90.4 54,173/61,011 88.8 15,439/20,406 75.7
2018/07 19,800/22,196 89.2 52,194/59,106 88.3 15,186/22,196 68.4
2018/06 19,312/21,480 89.9 50,626/58,147 87.1 15,442/21,480 71.9
2018/05 18,378/21,838 84.2 47,957/60,438 79.3 12,857/22,196 57.9
2018/04 19,202/21,838 87.9 48,167/58,470 82.4 12,448/21,480 58.0
2018/03 30,424/37,232 81.7 50,816/60,025 84.7 3,571/ 4,654 76.7
2018/02 32,398/39,738 81.5 46,463/54,747 84.9
2018/01 34,723/40,096 86.6 51,816/59,885 86.5 610/ 716 85.2
LAX CAL EVA
2017/12 33,593/39,380 85.3 50,250/60,721 82.8
2017/11 34,676/40,454 85.7 46,802/58,127 80.5
2017/10 34,505/42,244 81.7 47,968/60,448 79.4
2017/09 30,731/43,318 70.9 40,805/57,754 70.7
2017/08 38,965/44,392 87.8 53,185/60,831 87.4
2017/07 38,394/44,750 85.8 48,474/60,185 80.5
2017/06 37,660/42,602 88.4 47,839/58,813 81.3
2017/05 38,654/44,034 87.8 48,657/60,268 80.7
2017/04 35,540/43,676 81.4 47,554/58,267 81.6
2017/03 32,630/43,676 74.7 45,753/60,738 75.3
2017/02 31,291/40,096 78.0 41,727/51,837 80.5
2017/01 39,714/44,750 88.7 53,142/57,520 92.4
For December I'm expecting a 77 to 80% + LF for ONT since their outbound to TPE was going out a third full for the first week and half. Though, now its going packed daily.
BTW thanks for going back and digging last years numbers since they help tell the story with ONT, and see if there's going to be longevity with the ONT route.
Though, it will be interesting to see if CI goes back to 5 day with the A359 when its off season to keep the 80+LF for ONT, then once Summer comes switches back to daily on the 77W.
Last edited by 26volt; Dec 25, 2018 at 12:37 pm
Dec 25, 2018, 7:05 pm
#252
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: CAN, LAX, TPE
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Posts: 2,898
November is historically low season in fare price. One should be surprised that it's actually filling up not just for LAX but also ONT consider price is the same. I think CI grabbed some new ONT customers and lost some LAX passengers to BR. Not sure who lost the passengers (or if it's just simply growth).
Dec 25, 2018, 7:25 pm
#253
Join Date: May 2018
Location: LAX, MEX, MLM, ONT, SAL
Programs: DL Silver Medallion
Posts: 127
November is historically low season in fare price. One should be surprised that it's actually filling up not just for LAX but also ONT consider price is the same. I think CI grabbed some new ONT customers and lost some LAX passengers to BR. Not sure who lost the passengers (or if it's just simply growth).
Dec 26, 2018, 12:22 pm
#254
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: LAX
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I've seen some anecdotal evidence of people flying CI via ONT to Southeast Asia that probably would have never used CI before via LAX - a couple of friends have used the ONT flight to connect to SIN. They would have normally gone thur NRT, ICN, or HKG but the took the CI flight because ONT is much easier to access from SGV. This was made possible by the switch to night departure so that was a good move.
BR I think is very happy to soak up the marketshare vacated by CI ex-LAX so this may turn out to be a win-win for both carrier.
Regarding cargo, simply put, there is no international pallet cargo business in ONT, just like there is no international pallet cargo business at SNA. There is ZERO industry support for moving pallet cargo business out of LAX. No one is interested. Not the airlines, not the custom brokers, not the freight forwarders, not the logistic companies, not the bonded warehouse owners. They've all made their investments to serve LAX and Ports of Long Beach and LA.
BR I think is very happy to soak up the marketshare vacated by CI ex-LAX so this may turn out to be a win-win for both carrier.
Regarding cargo, simply put, there is no international pallet cargo business in ONT, just like there is no international pallet cargo business at SNA. There is ZERO industry support for moving pallet cargo business out of LAX. No one is interested. Not the airlines, not the custom brokers, not the freight forwarders, not the logistic companies, not the bonded warehouse owners. They've all made their investments to serve LAX and Ports of Long Beach and LA.
Dec 30, 2018, 10:52 am
#255
Join Date: May 2018
Location: LAX, MEX, MLM, ONT, SAL
Programs: DL Silver Medallion
Posts: 127
Just came across this. Last night I found out that DL was cutting its SAL-LAX service, so I went ahead to search for alternatives, and wait times at x airports, especially at their CBP areas, and came across CBP's daily wait time for each of their stations, and ONT was one of them. Here's the link, https://awt.cbp.gov/
I downloaded their excel for this month. It's not complete, since its up to Dec 28th though it gives how many people they've passed through at each hour of the day. For CI 24 for this month they've scanned in 7,094 passengers. There's three days left so that final number could edge to 8,000.
I downloaded their excel for this month. It's not complete, since its up to Dec 28th though it gives how many people they've passed through at each hour of the day. For CI 24 for this month they've scanned in 7,094 passengers. There's three days left so that final number could edge to 8,000.