Jan 18, 2014, 10:10 pm
Last edit by: emilio911
What is it?
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) is a "service" some merchants and ATM operators offer that will charge a cardholder in the native currency of the card rather than the local currency. A more complete definition and examples are available via this Wikipedia article on DCC. While sold as a convenience to cardholders traveling outside of their home country, it is a pure profit play by the merchants. You may end up paying a fee of up to 8% over the purchase price for accepting DCC. Always decline DCC and asked to be billed in the local currency!
Where will I see it?
You can be hit with DCC anywhere there is a difference between your debit or credit card's denominated currency and the currency of the location where you're trying to use the card. The most common example will be at a merchant overseas, but now some ATMs are offering the service too. While many US cardholders complain about getting tricked into accepting DCC overseas, some merchants in the US have started to use DCC as well.
What is the issue?
Unless you're the merchant or ATM operator, there isn't much benefit to using DCC. Some customers say they prefer knowing exactly how much they'll be charged in their home currency or may not know the exchange rate of the place where they are visiting. For example, if you are in Prague for two days and you don't know how much the Czech Koruna is worth relative to the US Dollar, you might feel more comfortable knowing that you're buying an item for $205.00 versus 4000 CZK. However, the real exchange rate as of January 18, 2014 would place 4000 CZK at $197.18. You just paid an extra $7.82 for the "convenience" of knowing how much you'd be charged!
DCC often charges about a 4% premium over the true exchange rate. The problems don't stop there since many US banks still charge a 3% foreign transaction fee (FTF) for purchases made outside of the US. Not only would you get hit with the $205.00 charge, you could also find yourself facing a total charge of $211.15 if your card has a 3% FTF.
This is a pure money grab from the merchants, and it's billed as an easy way to squeeze additional revenue out of the transaction. Numerous [1, 2] articles have talked about DCC duping many consumers. Discover even has a warning about being tricked into DCC when using a card abroad.
For example, this FlyerTalk member reported that Avis charged his Saudi credit card in Saudi riyals instead of USD for a car rental in Florida without his consent. This has also been a trend for hotels, particularly large chains as indicated here and here.
DCC is simply not worth it for the consumer. Unless you like paying a convenience fee of up to 5% of the total transaction just to know how much you will be billed, you should always decline DCC and ask to be billed in local currency when handing over your card.
Furthermore, it is in your interest to obtain a card that has a 0% FTF. FlyerTalk member kebosabi maintains a fairly comprehensive spreadsheet of EMV-enabled cards ideal for overseas travel, many of which offer a low or 0% FTF as a feature. There is also a wiki at FlyerGuide of various FTF of debit and credit cards.
What can I do to avoid DCC?
American Express currently does not support DCC on its network, so you are safe from DCC if using an American Express card. However, Visa and MasterCard card networks can support DCC, so be vigilant when purchasing abroad with a Visa or MasterCard branded card. There have been reports of being charged DCC with a Discover card in China [citation needed], but primarily the issue is happening with Visa and MasterCard cards.
Before handing your card to the merchant, always specify clearly that you want to be charged in the local currency and that you do not want DCC. For some transactions, you retain control of your card as you dip it into a chip reader and can view on a screen to select which currency you want to use for the transaction. Always select the local currencyto get the best exchange rate. Do not select the card's native currency!
Similarly, for ATM withdrawals, make sure you decline any kind of conversions. Some good examples of what to look for when using an ATM overseas are here and here. You're probably coming off of a long flight and fatigued, but educating yourself beforehand can save you from getting ripped off. The user interfaces on almost all of these ATMs are set up to encourage you to take the bait, and you have to be extremely vigilant not to fall for it.
If you are doing a PIN-based transaction, you should have the opportunity to review the total amount and denomination of the transaction before entering your PIN. If you are doing a signature transaction and the merchant has processed your transaction with DCC, cross out the amount and write "DCC refused" on the receipt. Do not sign the receipt, and demand that the merchant reverse the transaction and run it in the local currency. If no verification is required due to a small purchase amount, ask the merchant to reverse the charge and repeat the transaction using local currency. If all else fails, file a dispute with your card issuer when you return home. Even if it's immaterial, the banks will get the message like they did with EMV.
Some merchants will claim that their systems have to bill you in your native currency. This is a complete lie. But just like a mag stripe only card, this is battle where you have to be prepared. Don't settle for merchants claiming that "it has to be done this way" or "pay cash if you don't want this". Be prepared to walk away, and, if you must complete the transaction, write "DCC refused & merchant didn't give a choice" on the receipt and cross out the amount. Let the merchant know that you will be filing a dispute with your bank.
Disabling DCC
Disabling DCC on ANZ terminals in Australia
ANZ markets DCC as Customer Preferred Currency (CPC). Terminal operators can contact ANZ Merchant Services at 1800 039 025 to have this feature disabled. Currently, your Visa or MasterCard will be subjected to DCC if denominated in: CAD, CHF, DKK, EUR, GBP, HKD, JPY, MYR, NOK, NZD, SEK, SGD, THB, USD, or ZAR. All DCC transactions on ANZ will cause a 2.5% markup. Steps to avoid DCC:
If you see a signature slip with DCC verbiage and a checkbox indicating a currency selection, kindly ask the merchant to void the transaction. If it's a PIN-based transaction, you have an additional opportunity to cancel the transaction because it will ask for your PIN a second time. For instance, if you see "EUR 17.29 KEY PIN" refuse to enter your PIN and start again.
Disabling DCC in China
There are many reports of forced DCC in China, and there is a great thread [closed to new posts] on DCC in China on the the China Destinations forum.
Disabling DCC on Bankcomm terminals in Beijing http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #19
jair101's DCC instructions of March 2011 http://www.etveg.com/misc/DCC_China.pdf
Disabling DCC in Eurozone and UK
DCC offered in tourist traps (Harrods Knightsbridge/Galleries Lafayette Montparnesse/El Cortes Ingles Grand Via Madrid)
Unlike the rest of the world, Visa Europe does not require merchants to collect a ticked box on the slip (presumably because merchants there don't keep signed slips under Chip-and-PIN)
El Cortes Ingles collects a signature electronically and the DCC selection is made on the signature pad - the choice is respected.
Harrods and GL rely on cashier input in the POS for the currency choice - the cashier may forget to ask. The POS do not offer voiding (only refunds), but since you're given a slip to sign the best thing to do is to deface it before signing and submit chargeback request to issuer bank on return home.
There may be smaller merchants who also collect DCC but I seemed to have pre-empted most of them by saying "charge Euros (Pounds) please"
In Spain all merchants by law are required to provide you with a complaint form called an hoja de reclamaciones if requested. The form has two carbon copies. The customer retains one copy as a record of the complaint. The merchant maintains another copy, and the third is sent to the local consumer protection bureau. Merchants are also required to post a sign conspicuously informing the customer of the right to complain (usually in Spanish and English). Do not accept the lie that they don't have any forms. This is illegal, and you are able to call the police if the merchant refuses to provide you with this official form. It's interesting to see merchants start to squirm when you know the rules, and most merchants will start to be accommodating after you mention it. (Please still fill out the form even if the merchant cooperates after mentioning it because these are likely the merchants who won't otherwise change their behavior.)
Disabling DCC in Hong Kong and Macau
Hong Kong and Macau can get as non-compliant as China, possibly because many acquirers have cross-border operations and know they can get away with non-compliant firmware and procedures.
In practice, if you are given a DCC slip, and the cashier has not taken a choice before giving you your copy, the slip will be processed in your home currency - be prepared to dispute.
Unable to disable Global Payments DCC in Hong Kong instance #1, instance #2
Unable to disable DBS DCC in Fortress Electronics HK
Unable to disable BoC DCC in Free Duty HK
Disabling DCC in Japan and Korea
Japan's just starting out http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...ing-japan.html and http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=3939&p=17 #168 but there are no reports I know of where cardholders are compelled to use DCC against their will.
Korea is also not much affected by DCC but where offered, trying to opt out is harder than Japan due to the language barrier (both verbal and written)
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...hp?id=4303&p=3 #23
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #11
Disabling DCC in the Maldives
Disabling DCC on Global Payment terminals in the Maldives
Disabling DCC in Thailand and Taiwan
DCC present but generally not an issue. Cashier will generate quote slip is usually generated and pass to cardholder. When cardholder refuses, a verbage-free slip denominated in THB/TWD will be produced.
Certain Taiwan hotels may take deposits in cardholder currency. But these are only pre-authorisations and can be voided in full for TWD-only final checkout payments.
Disabling DCC on Websites
Airbnb - (Since the "loophole" seem not to work anymore, please report if you chargeback the DCC.
)
Hotwire - You need to select your preferred currency before making a search.
PayPal - The instructions to stop the DCC on a recurring charge are here.
I got duped by DCC already before I found this thread. Is there anything I can do?
If you've been hit with DCC and the merchant did not follow the Visa/MC rules, you should file a dispute with your card issuer. Even if the transaction is a small amount, it's worth it to dispute the charge on principle. Do not let merchants get away with this scam uncontested!
If you were not clearly given a choice of currencies and did not specifically communicate a preference to be billed in your card's native currency - if you did not accept DCC - then you have recourse when filing a dispute with your card issuer. The Visa Product and Service Rules clearly state (p 339):
You can even use terminology from Visa Product and Service Rules when filing the dispute, giving Reason Code 76: Incorrect Currency or Transaction Code. Reason Code 76 is used when the transaction was processed with an incorrect transaction code, or an incorrect currency code, or one of the following:
MasterCard's rules also clearly state that the POI Currency Conversion must be decided by both the merchant and customer. When filing a dispute with a MasterCard, list chargeback Reason Code 4846 from the MasterCard Chargeback Guide, which covers POI currency conversion disputes in the following circumstances:
You do have a choice of currencies. Exercise that choice!
Do not get taken by surprise when faced with DCC, and know your options. As Visa/MC purport, you do have a choice of currencies, but you need to make that choice heard! Don't be complacent in this sneaky tactic by some merchants to pad revenues.
Before going to a different country, get educated. Understand the exchange rate relative to your native currency. Know how to recognize when the merchant is trying to force DCC on the transaction, and pull out all of the stops to make sure it doesn't happen to you.
If you have a chip-and-PIN credit card, it's easier to control the transaction to try to prevent DCC. With chip-and-signature, if you get an uncooperative merchant, deface the merchant's copy of the receipt. Write LOCAL OPTION NOT OFFERED, cross out the DCC currency amount, and sign the receipt.
This will give additional evidence when filing a dispute to get the DCC charges refunded. When filing the dispute, you can use the Visa Exchange Rate Calculator or MasterCard's Currency Conversion Tool to determine the Visa or MasterCard exchange rate on the date the transaction posted to your credit card. Compare this to the DCC value to figure out the amount by which the merchant overcharged you. Don't forget to add in any Foreign Transaction Fee if your card has one. (If it does, you should really consider finding a card for use overseas without a FTF.)
Example Images (click for a larger image)
Hotel receipts in China, the Netherlands, and Dubai respectively:
Purchase receipts in China and Korea:
Cancelled translation in Hong Kong:
Novotel in Shenzen:
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) is a "service" some merchants and ATM operators offer that will charge a cardholder in the native currency of the card rather than the local currency. A more complete definition and examples are available via this Wikipedia article on DCC. While sold as a convenience to cardholders traveling outside of their home country, it is a pure profit play by the merchants. You may end up paying a fee of up to 8% over the purchase price for accepting DCC. Always decline DCC and asked to be billed in the local currency!
Where will I see it?
You can be hit with DCC anywhere there is a difference between your debit or credit card's denominated currency and the currency of the location where you're trying to use the card. The most common example will be at a merchant overseas, but now some ATMs are offering the service too. While many US cardholders complain about getting tricked into accepting DCC overseas, some merchants in the US have started to use DCC as well.
What is the issue?
Unless you're the merchant or ATM operator, there isn't much benefit to using DCC. Some customers say they prefer knowing exactly how much they'll be charged in their home currency or may not know the exchange rate of the place where they are visiting. For example, if you are in Prague for two days and you don't know how much the Czech Koruna is worth relative to the US Dollar, you might feel more comfortable knowing that you're buying an item for $205.00 versus 4000 CZK. However, the real exchange rate as of January 18, 2014 would place 4000 CZK at $197.18. You just paid an extra $7.82 for the "convenience" of knowing how much you'd be charged!
DCC often charges about a 4% premium over the true exchange rate. The problems don't stop there since many US banks still charge a 3% foreign transaction fee (FTF) for purchases made outside of the US. Not only would you get hit with the $205.00 charge, you could also find yourself facing a total charge of $211.15 if your card has a 3% FTF.
This is a pure money grab from the merchants, and it's billed as an easy way to squeeze additional revenue out of the transaction. Numerous [1, 2] articles have talked about DCC duping many consumers. Discover even has a warning about being tricked into DCC when using a card abroad.
For example, this FlyerTalk member reported that Avis charged his Saudi credit card in Saudi riyals instead of USD for a car rental in Florida without his consent. This has also been a trend for hotels, particularly large chains as indicated here and here.
DCC is simply not worth it for the consumer. Unless you like paying a convenience fee of up to 5% of the total transaction just to know how much you will be billed, you should always decline DCC and ask to be billed in local currency when handing over your card.
Furthermore, it is in your interest to obtain a card that has a 0% FTF. FlyerTalk member kebosabi maintains a fairly comprehensive spreadsheet of EMV-enabled cards ideal for overseas travel, many of which offer a low or 0% FTF as a feature. There is also a wiki at FlyerGuide of various FTF of debit and credit cards.
What can I do to avoid DCC?
American Express currently does not support DCC on its network, so you are safe from DCC if using an American Express card. However, Visa and MasterCard card networks can support DCC, so be vigilant when purchasing abroad with a Visa or MasterCard branded card. There have been reports of being charged DCC with a Discover card in China [citation needed], but primarily the issue is happening with Visa and MasterCard cards.
Before handing your card to the merchant, always specify clearly that you want to be charged in the local currency and that you do not want DCC. For some transactions, you retain control of your card as you dip it into a chip reader and can view on a screen to select which currency you want to use for the transaction. Always select the local currencyto get the best exchange rate. Do not select the card's native currency!
Similarly, for ATM withdrawals, make sure you decline any kind of conversions. Some good examples of what to look for when using an ATM overseas are here and here. You're probably coming off of a long flight and fatigued, but educating yourself beforehand can save you from getting ripped off. The user interfaces on almost all of these ATMs are set up to encourage you to take the bait, and you have to be extremely vigilant not to fall for it.
If you are doing a PIN-based transaction, you should have the opportunity to review the total amount and denomination of the transaction before entering your PIN. If you are doing a signature transaction and the merchant has processed your transaction with DCC, cross out the amount and write "DCC refused" on the receipt. Do not sign the receipt, and demand that the merchant reverse the transaction and run it in the local currency. If no verification is required due to a small purchase amount, ask the merchant to reverse the charge and repeat the transaction using local currency. If all else fails, file a dispute with your card issuer when you return home. Even if it's immaterial, the banks will get the message like they did with EMV.
Some merchants will claim that their systems have to bill you in your native currency. This is a complete lie. But just like a mag stripe only card, this is battle where you have to be prepared. Don't settle for merchants claiming that "it has to be done this way" or "pay cash if you don't want this". Be prepared to walk away, and, if you must complete the transaction, write "DCC refused & merchant didn't give a choice" on the receipt and cross out the amount. Let the merchant know that you will be filing a dispute with your bank.
Disabling DCC
Disabling DCC on ANZ terminals in Australia
ANZ markets DCC as Customer Preferred Currency (CPC). Terminal operators can contact ANZ Merchant Services at 1800 039 025 to have this feature disabled. Currently, your Visa or MasterCard will be subjected to DCC if denominated in: CAD, CHF, DKK, EUR, GBP, HKD, JPY, MYR, NOK, NZD, SEK, SGD, THB, USD, or ZAR. All DCC transactions on ANZ will cause a 2.5% markup. Steps to avoid DCC:
- Insert, swipe, or tap your payment card
- Have the cashier select credit (CR)
- The terminal will display CREDIT ACCOUNT
- If applicable, enter your PIN
- The terminal will display PROCESSING \ PLEASE WAIT
- The terminal will display EXCH <exchange rate> \ <currency> <amount> \ ACCEPT RATE? \ ENTER=YES CLR=NO
- Instruct the cashier to press the yellow CLEAR (CLR) button (If entering a PIN, you can retain the terminal to perform this step yourself. If entering a signature, you can ask for the terminal to control this process, not indicating that it's a chip-and-signature card.)
- The transaction should now process without DCC
If you see a signature slip with DCC verbiage and a checkbox indicating a currency selection, kindly ask the merchant to void the transaction. If it's a PIN-based transaction, you have an additional opportunity to cancel the transaction because it will ask for your PIN a second time. For instance, if you see "EUR 17.29 KEY PIN" refuse to enter your PIN and start again.
Disabling DCC in China
There are many reports of forced DCC in China, and there is a great thread [closed to new posts] on DCC in China on the the China Destinations forum.
Disabling DCC on Bankcomm terminals in Beijing http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #19
jair101's DCC instructions of March 2011 http://www.etveg.com/misc/DCC_China.pdf
Disabling DCC in Eurozone and UK
DCC offered in tourist traps (Harrods Knightsbridge/Galleries Lafayette Montparnesse/El Cortes Ingles Grand Via Madrid)
Unlike the rest of the world, Visa Europe does not require merchants to collect a ticked box on the slip (presumably because merchants there don't keep signed slips under Chip-and-PIN)
El Cortes Ingles collects a signature electronically and the DCC selection is made on the signature pad - the choice is respected.
Harrods and GL rely on cashier input in the POS for the currency choice - the cashier may forget to ask. The POS do not offer voiding (only refunds), but since you're given a slip to sign the best thing to do is to deface it before signing and submit chargeback request to issuer bank on return home.
There may be smaller merchants who also collect DCC but I seemed to have pre-empted most of them by saying "charge Euros (Pounds) please"
In Spain all merchants by law are required to provide you with a complaint form called an hoja de reclamaciones if requested. The form has two carbon copies. The customer retains one copy as a record of the complaint. The merchant maintains another copy, and the third is sent to the local consumer protection bureau. Merchants are also required to post a sign conspicuously informing the customer of the right to complain (usually in Spanish and English). Do not accept the lie that they don't have any forms. This is illegal, and you are able to call the police if the merchant refuses to provide you with this official form. It's interesting to see merchants start to squirm when you know the rules, and most merchants will start to be accommodating after you mention it. (Please still fill out the form even if the merchant cooperates after mentioning it because these are likely the merchants who won't otherwise change their behavior.)
Disabling DCC in Hong Kong and Macau
Hong Kong and Macau can get as non-compliant as China, possibly because many acquirers have cross-border operations and know they can get away with non-compliant firmware and procedures.
In practice, if you are given a DCC slip, and the cashier has not taken a choice before giving you your copy, the slip will be processed in your home currency - be prepared to dispute.
Unable to disable Global Payments DCC in Hong Kong instance #1, instance #2
Unable to disable DBS DCC in Fortress Electronics HK
Unable to disable BoC DCC in Free Duty HK
Disabling DCC in Japan and Korea
Japan's just starting out http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...ing-japan.html and http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=3939&p=17 #168 but there are no reports I know of where cardholders are compelled to use DCC against their will.
Korea is also not much affected by DCC but where offered, trying to opt out is harder than Japan due to the language barrier (both verbal and written)
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...hp?id=4303&p=3 #23
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #11
Disabling DCC in the Maldives
Disabling DCC on Global Payment terminals in the Maldives
Disabling DCC in Thailand and Taiwan
DCC present but generally not an issue. Cashier will generate quote slip is usually generated and pass to cardholder. When cardholder refuses, a verbage-free slip denominated in THB/TWD will be produced.
Certain Taiwan hotels may take deposits in cardholder currency. But these are only pre-authorisations and can be voided in full for TWD-only final checkout payments.
Disabling DCC on Websites
Airbnb - (Since the "loophole" seem not to work anymore, please report if you chargeback the DCC.
)Hotwire - You need to select your preferred currency before making a search.
PayPal - The instructions to stop the DCC on a recurring charge are here.
I got duped by DCC already before I found this thread. Is there anything I can do?
If you've been hit with DCC and the merchant did not follow the Visa/MC rules, you should file a dispute with your card issuer. Even if the transaction is a small amount, it's worth it to dispute the charge on principle. Do not let merchants get away with this scam uncontested!
If you were not clearly given a choice of currencies and did not specifically communicate a preference to be billed in your card's native currency - if you did not accept DCC - then you have recourse when filing a dispute with your card issuer. The Visa Product and Service Rules clearly state (p 339):
- Merchants that offer DCC must be compliant with the regulations
- Inform the cardholder that DCC is optional
- Not impose any additional requirements to use local currency
- Not use any language or procedures that may cause the cardholder to choose DCC by default
- Not convert a transaction in the local currency to the card's billing currency after the transaction has completed
- Ensure that the cardholder expressly agrees to DCC
You can even use terminology from Visa Product and Service Rules when filing the dispute, giving Reason Code 76: Incorrect Currency or Transaction Code. Reason Code 76 is used when the transaction was processed with an incorrect transaction code, or an incorrect currency code, or one of the following:
- Merchant did not deposit a transaction receipt in the country where the transaction occurred
- Cardholder was not advised that Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) would occur
- Cardholder was refused the choice of paying in the merchant’s local currency
- Merchant processed a credit refund and did not process a reversal or adjustment within 30 calendar days for a transaction receipt processed in error
MasterCard's rules also clearly state that the POI Currency Conversion must be decided by both the merchant and customer. When filing a dispute with a MasterCard, list chargeback Reason Code 4846 from the MasterCard Chargeback Guide, which covers POI currency conversion disputes in the following circumstances:
- The cardholder states that he or she was not given the opportunity to choose the desired currency in which the transactions was completed or did not agree to the currency of the transaction, or
- POI currency conversion took place into a currency that is not the cardholder's billing currency, or
- POI currency conversion took place when the goods or services were priced in the cardholder's billing currency, or
- POI currency conversion took place when cash was disbursed in the cardholdeer's billing currency.
You do have a choice of currencies. Exercise that choice!
Do not get taken by surprise when faced with DCC, and know your options. As Visa/MC purport, you do have a choice of currencies, but you need to make that choice heard! Don't be complacent in this sneaky tactic by some merchants to pad revenues.
Before going to a different country, get educated. Understand the exchange rate relative to your native currency. Know how to recognize when the merchant is trying to force DCC on the transaction, and pull out all of the stops to make sure it doesn't happen to you.
If you have a chip-and-PIN credit card, it's easier to control the transaction to try to prevent DCC. With chip-and-signature, if you get an uncooperative merchant, deface the merchant's copy of the receipt. Write LOCAL OPTION NOT OFFERED, cross out the DCC currency amount, and sign the receipt.
This will give additional evidence when filing a dispute to get the DCC charges refunded. When filing the dispute, you can use the Visa Exchange Rate Calculator or MasterCard's Currency Conversion Tool to determine the Visa or MasterCard exchange rate on the date the transaction posted to your credit card. Compare this to the DCC value to figure out the amount by which the merchant overcharged you. Don't forget to add in any Foreign Transaction Fee if your card has one. (If it does, you should really consider finding a card for use overseas without a FTF.
)Example Images (click for a larger image)
Hotel receipts in China, the Netherlands, and Dubai respectively:
Purchase receipts in China and Korea:
Cancelled translation in Hong Kong:
Novotel in Shenzen:
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) [2014-2016]
Feb 19, 2014, 8:29 am
#121
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 42,045
IMHO, it is indeed an unlawful deceptive practice under both Federal Trade Commission law and rules and state Unfair and Deceptive Practices Acts (UDAP), particularly when you are not give a real choice. See, for starters, http://www.nclc.org/images/pdf/udap/..._50_states.pdf which summarizes each state's UDAP law.
The question is how high up the food chain can you reasonably pin the blame?
Feb 19, 2014, 9:35 am
#122
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 19,803
IMHO, it is indeed an unlawful deceptive practice under both Federal Trade Commission law and rules and state Unfair and Deceptive Practices Acts (UDAP), particularly when you are not give a real choice. See, for starters, http://www.nclc.org/images/pdf/udap/..._50_states.pdf which summarizes each state's UDAP law.
Feb 19, 2014, 4:38 pm
#123
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Irvine CA & PEK
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Qantas Platinum, United S
Posts: 664
I think the really simple fact of violation in DCC is the Bank of Communication Moondog mentioned. It's system chooses DCC by default, and your slip says you are offered a choice, which is so not true.
I have no problem being offered DCC, but I want it like Hong Kong where you can see the rate and you hit the button, so you have the control.
The Ritz Carlton in Beijing told me the bank charges them 1% of non-DCC, and 0.5% with DCC. I am not sure what the rate is for UnionPay transactions.
I have no problem being offered DCC, but I want it like Hong Kong where you can see the rate and you hit the button, so you have the control.
The Ritz Carlton in Beijing told me the bank charges them 1% of non-DCC, and 0.5% with DCC. I am not sure what the rate is for UnionPay transactions.
Feb 19, 2014, 4:47 pm
#124
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Irvine CA & PEK
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Qantas Platinum, United S
Posts: 664
Non-compliant DCC isn't an unlawful practice; it's simply prohibited by Visa/MC. Furthermore, even the most nefarious POS machines presumably offer some sort of means to opt-out. All it would take to spread non-compliant DCC to Korea or Japan would be for one of the big offenders to either set up shop there or to align with an incumbent acquirer.
I wouldn't say it's prohibited by Visa/MC...that appears to suggest they can do something about it.
They certainly aren't able to anything about the Bank of Chinas and Bankcomms of this world.
All we can say is that they are non-compliant with Visa merchant and acquirer agreements and/or VIOR. But there is no consequence. Or even Visa/MC don't want to cut them off (at least acquire the merchant interchange part of the income).
They certainly aren't able to anything about the Bank of Chinas and Bankcomms of this world.
All we can say is that they are non-compliant with Visa merchant and acquirer agreements and/or VIOR. But there is no consequence. Or even Visa/MC don't want to cut them off (at least acquire the merchant interchange part of the income).
Feb 19, 2014, 4:49 pm
#125
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 19,803
The HK norm is for the terminal to not be shown to the customer - any buttons (if available) are pressed by merchant. We haven't moved onto chip-and-PIN so most card terminals are not mobile.
Feb 19, 2014, 4:58 pm
#126
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 19,803
But not always possible (UK and Europe):
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/u-k-i...-currency.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/franc...lafayette.html
or takes long: To void a BoC DCC - 请输入主管密码?!
China is a pretty closed market. You see, everything here is done via some state authorized or approved proxies, while the rest of the world can do that without the middle men. Even taking a TOEFL test here is done through a Ministry of Education's agency, not directly via ETS. The banking system here is more of a example, that's why you see Bank of Communication POSs doing stuff like this and no one cares. Everything Bank of Communication has belongs to the government, and I don't think Visa/MC can take on that...
I've long held a theory that the Chinese Government creates very favourable conditions for DCC scamming:
- They own the local competing payment system - Unionpay - and majority stakes in most major Chinese banks too.
- They are really pushing to promote local brands - they're also doing this to the Big4 Global Accounting Firms (despite almost all the partners being HK/Mainland Chinese) http://app1.hkicpa.org.hk/APLUS/1006...20-24_Big4.pdf
- They hate Visa quite a lot, given Visa's intransigence over PRC-issued dual-coded Visa/Unionpay outside China (Visa ruled that all Visa merchants outside China must use the Visa function of the dual-coded cards). Dunno what's their attitude towards MC.
The CBRC won't bat an eyelid towards systematic DCC rort and won't police its banks to follow Visa's/MC's rules. Most banks will be allowed to tell Visa/MC - I'm gonna scam all your customers. You can pull my entire participation in Visanet if you wish but if you don't then you play by my rules.
- They own the local competing payment system - Unionpay - and majority stakes in most major Chinese banks too.
- They are really pushing to promote local brands - they're also doing this to the Big4 Global Accounting Firms (despite almost all the partners being HK/Mainland Chinese) http://app1.hkicpa.org.hk/APLUS/1006...20-24_Big4.pdf
- They hate Visa quite a lot, given Visa's intransigence over PRC-issued dual-coded Visa/Unionpay outside China (Visa ruled that all Visa merchants outside China must use the Visa function of the dual-coded cards). Dunno what's their attitude towards MC.
The CBRC won't bat an eyelid towards systematic DCC rort and won't police its banks to follow Visa's/MC's rules. Most banks will be allowed to tell Visa/MC - I'm gonna scam all your customers. You can pull my entire participation in Visanet if you wish but if you don't then you play by my rules.
Feb 19, 2014, 11:18 pm
#127
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Feb 20, 2014, 12:04 am
#128
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I thought MOF still has majority stakes in all the Big4 plus the second tier banks too.
They do in Big4 but don't in Bankcomm (or CMB for the matter). But they still are the largest shareholder.
HKSCC "represents" HK retail investors who makes it very difficult to vote their shares http://webb-site.com/articles/devoted2failure.asp (you don't even get corporate communications after putting shares in CCASS - it just appears as a number in your bank statement).
HSBC is determined to be The World's Local Bank, emulating the world's bad banking practices as well as good.
They do in Big4 but don't in Bankcomm (or CMB for the matter). But they still are the largest shareholder.
HKSCC "represents" HK retail investors who makes it very difficult to vote their shares http://webb-site.com/articles/devoted2failure.asp (you don't even get corporate communications after putting shares in CCASS - it just appears as a number in your bank statement).
HSBC is determined to be The World's Local Bank, emulating the world's bad banking practices as well as good.
Feb 20, 2014, 6:20 am
#129
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Irvine CA & PEK
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Most of my cards are HKD so I have to rely on visitors to tell me/show me what happens in a HK DCC transaction, but do you get a button selection in HK?!
The HK norm is for the terminal to not be shown to the customer - any buttons (if available) are pressed by merchant. We haven't moved onto chip-and-PIN so most card terminals are not mobile.
The HK norm is for the terminal to not be shown to the customer - any buttons (if available) are pressed by merchant. We haven't moved onto chip-and-PIN so most card terminals are not mobile.
At some merchants where they use mobile POS, when I request HKD payments, I get another slip stating the final amount in HKD, after I circle and sign the first slip.
Anyway, I didn't encounter any bad POS that has its currency selection chosen by default, at about 10+ hotels, 100+ stores (upscale and street drug stores), and 20+ restaurants (the ones accepting cards).
That's why I like HK's way~ And, I hate chip and pin...
Feb 20, 2014, 6:31 am
#130
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
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Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 7_0_4 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/537.51.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/7.0 Mobile/11B554a Safari/9537.53)
Zyxlsy: check your statement to be sure. Carbon slips in particular - you may have circled HKD but the terminal will simply ignore it (figuring you or your bank couldn't be bothered to chargeback).
Thermal slips with no mention of USD are definitely DCC-free and need not be checked.
Zyxlsy: check your statement to be sure. Carbon slips in particular - you may have circled HKD but the terminal will simply ignore it (figuring you or your bank couldn't be bothered to chargeback).
Thermal slips with no mention of USD are definitely DCC-free and need not be checked.
Feb 20, 2014, 6:34 am
#131
Join Date: Feb 2013
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I thought MOF still has majority stakes in all the Big4 plus the second tier banks too.
They do in Big4 but don't in Bankcomm (or CMB for the matter). But they still are the largest shareholder.
HKSCC "represents" HK retail investors who makes it very difficult to vote their shares http://webb-site.com/articles/devoted2failure.asp (you don't even get corporate communications after putting shares in CCASS - it just appears as a number in your bank statement).
HSBC is determined to be The World's Local Bank, emulating the world's bad banking practices as well as good.
They do in Big4 but don't in Bankcomm (or CMB for the matter). But they still are the largest shareholder.
HKSCC "represents" HK retail investors who makes it very difficult to vote their shares http://webb-site.com/articles/devoted2failure.asp (you don't even get corporate communications after putting shares in CCASS - it just appears as a number in your bank statement).
HSBC is determined to be The World's Local Bank, emulating the world's bad banking practices as well as good.
I used to work for a power generation company in China, a company has the word "international" in its title, and is listed in HK and London, and I encountered numerous things which don't have HK or London shareholders' participation at all (like changing its General Manager, or CEO you can say). All these orders are directly from the top, then through the "parent" group company which is 100% CPC owned (a level higher than MOF owned) and has the majority share.
My wife works for one of the big 4, one with a deep shareholding connection with a bank in USA, and she doesn't think that USA's bank has any say when the government shuffles the Presidents of those big banks of China.
I personally don't believe the government would let a foreign company have the majority in any company of the important sectors, especially like banks which are directly owned by the party. Bank of Communication is the one right after the big 4.
Can still remember an article once saying that China's government has turned from trying not to violate WTO rules, to playing WTO rules in its hands. Same thing here, they can let outside investors in with their money, but they will not share the control, not a bit.
So...
Feb 20, 2014, 6:38 am
#132
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Irvine CA & PEK
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Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 7_0_4 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/537.51.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/7.0 Mobile/11B554a Safari/9537.53)
Zyxlsy: check your statement to be sure. Carbon slips in particular - you may have circled HKD but the terminal will simply ignore it (figuring you or your bank couldn't be bothered to chargeback).
Thermal slips with no mention of USD are definitely DCC-free and need not be checked.
Zyxlsy: check your statement to be sure. Carbon slips in particular - you may have circled HKD but the terminal will simply ignore it (figuring you or your bank couldn't be bothered to chargeback).
Thermal slips with no mention of USD are definitely DCC-free and need not be checked.
Maybe I don't go to ...... places, or Lan Kwai Fong...
Feb 20, 2014, 6:41 am
#133
Join Date: Feb 2013
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I think our post can host a gathering, in either HK or Shanghai. Beijing simply has too much toxic fog.
But I was told Shanghai and HK have worse air qualities these years... But I still love these two cities a lot.
But I was told Shanghai and HK have worse air qualities these years... But I still love these two cities a lot.
Feb 24, 2014, 12:33 am
#134
Join Date: Feb 2013
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Just found these receipts from Japan in 2012. Hopefully when they fully roll out DCC there, we can still get clean receipts (without marks of other currencies) like this without so much talk.
Can't imagine negotiating DCC with Japanese merchants... That's gonna be impossible!
Feb 25, 2014, 11:23 am
#135
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 5
My experience in Poland and Germany is a bit more shady with the defaults. It asks "Approve transaction? Green for USD, Red for (local currency)". Since cashiers don't always read the best English, they just hit green for approve. This has happened to me despite requesting payment in local currency.
Exchange rate*: 0.24257
Fee/mark-up: 3.00%
Amount 24.26 EUR
* This currency conversion is provided
by eService S.A.
I have chosen not to use the MasterCard
conversion method and I will
have no recourse against MasterCard
concerning the currency
conversion or its disclosure
The official MasterCard/Maestro exchange rate for that day was 0.23594.
I disputed the transaction with my bank without success. I learned from the central payment processing center in Frankfurt, Germany that a chip-and-pin transaction cannot be voided.