Jan 18, 2014, 10:10 pm
Last edit by: emilio911
What is it?
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) is a "service" some merchants and ATM operators offer that will charge a cardholder in the native currency of the card rather than the local currency. A more complete definition and examples are available via this Wikipedia article on DCC. While sold as a convenience to cardholders traveling outside of their home country, it is a pure profit play by the merchants. You may end up paying a fee of up to 8% over the purchase price for accepting DCC. Always decline DCC and asked to be billed in the local currency!
Where will I see it?
You can be hit with DCC anywhere there is a difference between your debit or credit card's denominated currency and the currency of the location where you're trying to use the card. The most common example will be at a merchant overseas, but now some ATMs are offering the service too. While many US cardholders complain about getting tricked into accepting DCC overseas, some merchants in the US have started to use DCC as well.
What is the issue?
Unless you're the merchant or ATM operator, there isn't much benefit to using DCC. Some customers say they prefer knowing exactly how much they'll be charged in their home currency or may not know the exchange rate of the place where they are visiting. For example, if you are in Prague for two days and you don't know how much the Czech Koruna is worth relative to the US Dollar, you might feel more comfortable knowing that you're buying an item for $205.00 versus 4000 CZK. However, the real exchange rate as of January 18, 2014 would place 4000 CZK at $197.18. You just paid an extra $7.82 for the "convenience" of knowing how much you'd be charged!
DCC often charges about a 4% premium over the true exchange rate. The problems don't stop there since many US banks still charge a 3% foreign transaction fee (FTF) for purchases made outside of the US. Not only would you get hit with the $205.00 charge, you could also find yourself facing a total charge of $211.15 if your card has a 3% FTF.
This is a pure money grab from the merchants, and it's billed as an easy way to squeeze additional revenue out of the transaction. Numerous [1, 2] articles have talked about DCC duping many consumers. Discover even has a warning about being tricked into DCC when using a card abroad.
For example, this FlyerTalk member reported that Avis charged his Saudi credit card in Saudi riyals instead of USD for a car rental in Florida without his consent. This has also been a trend for hotels, particularly large chains as indicated here and here.
DCC is simply not worth it for the consumer. Unless you like paying a convenience fee of up to 5% of the total transaction just to know how much you will be billed, you should always decline DCC and ask to be billed in local currency when handing over your card.
Furthermore, it is in your interest to obtain a card that has a 0% FTF. FlyerTalk member kebosabi maintains a fairly comprehensive spreadsheet of EMV-enabled cards ideal for overseas travel, many of which offer a low or 0% FTF as a feature. There is also a wiki at FlyerGuide of various FTF of debit and credit cards.
What can I do to avoid DCC?
American Express currently does not support DCC on its network, so you are safe from DCC if using an American Express card. However, Visa and MasterCard card networks can support DCC, so be vigilant when purchasing abroad with a Visa or MasterCard branded card. There have been reports of being charged DCC with a Discover card in China [citation needed], but primarily the issue is happening with Visa and MasterCard cards.
Before handing your card to the merchant, always specify clearly that you want to be charged in the local currency and that you do not want DCC. For some transactions, you retain control of your card as you dip it into a chip reader and can view on a screen to select which currency you want to use for the transaction. Always select the local currencyto get the best exchange rate. Do not select the card's native currency!
Similarly, for ATM withdrawals, make sure you decline any kind of conversions. Some good examples of what to look for when using an ATM overseas are here and here. You're probably coming off of a long flight and fatigued, but educating yourself beforehand can save you from getting ripped off. The user interfaces on almost all of these ATMs are set up to encourage you to take the bait, and you have to be extremely vigilant not to fall for it.
If you are doing a PIN-based transaction, you should have the opportunity to review the total amount and denomination of the transaction before entering your PIN. If you are doing a signature transaction and the merchant has processed your transaction with DCC, cross out the amount and write "DCC refused" on the receipt. Do not sign the receipt, and demand that the merchant reverse the transaction and run it in the local currency. If no verification is required due to a small purchase amount, ask the merchant to reverse the charge and repeat the transaction using local currency. If all else fails, file a dispute with your card issuer when you return home. Even if it's immaterial, the banks will get the message like they did with EMV.
Some merchants will claim that their systems have to bill you in your native currency. This is a complete lie. But just like a mag stripe only card, this is battle where you have to be prepared. Don't settle for merchants claiming that "it has to be done this way" or "pay cash if you don't want this". Be prepared to walk away, and, if you must complete the transaction, write "DCC refused & merchant didn't give a choice" on the receipt and cross out the amount. Let the merchant know that you will be filing a dispute with your bank.
Disabling DCC
Disabling DCC on ANZ terminals in Australia
ANZ markets DCC as Customer Preferred Currency (CPC). Terminal operators can contact ANZ Merchant Services at 1800 039 025 to have this feature disabled. Currently, your Visa or MasterCard will be subjected to DCC if denominated in: CAD, CHF, DKK, EUR, GBP, HKD, JPY, MYR, NOK, NZD, SEK, SGD, THB, USD, or ZAR. All DCC transactions on ANZ will cause a 2.5% markup. Steps to avoid DCC:
If you see a signature slip with DCC verbiage and a checkbox indicating a currency selection, kindly ask the merchant to void the transaction. If it's a PIN-based transaction, you have an additional opportunity to cancel the transaction because it will ask for your PIN a second time. For instance, if you see "EUR 17.29 KEY PIN" refuse to enter your PIN and start again.
Disabling DCC in China
There are many reports of forced DCC in China, and there is a great thread [closed to new posts] on DCC in China on the the China Destinations forum.
Disabling DCC on Bankcomm terminals in Beijing http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #19
jair101's DCC instructions of March 2011 http://www.etveg.com/misc/DCC_China.pdf
Disabling DCC in Eurozone and UK
DCC offered in tourist traps (Harrods Knightsbridge/Galleries Lafayette Montparnesse/El Cortes Ingles Grand Via Madrid)
Unlike the rest of the world, Visa Europe does not require merchants to collect a ticked box on the slip (presumably because merchants there don't keep signed slips under Chip-and-PIN)
El Cortes Ingles collects a signature electronically and the DCC selection is made on the signature pad - the choice is respected.
Harrods and GL rely on cashier input in the POS for the currency choice - the cashier may forget to ask. The POS do not offer voiding (only refunds), but since you're given a slip to sign the best thing to do is to deface it before signing and submit chargeback request to issuer bank on return home.
There may be smaller merchants who also collect DCC but I seemed to have pre-empted most of them by saying "charge Euros (Pounds) please"
In Spain all merchants by law are required to provide you with a complaint form called an hoja de reclamaciones if requested. The form has two carbon copies. The customer retains one copy as a record of the complaint. The merchant maintains another copy, and the third is sent to the local consumer protection bureau. Merchants are also required to post a sign conspicuously informing the customer of the right to complain (usually in Spanish and English). Do not accept the lie that they don't have any forms. This is illegal, and you are able to call the police if the merchant refuses to provide you with this official form. It's interesting to see merchants start to squirm when you know the rules, and most merchants will start to be accommodating after you mention it. (Please still fill out the form even if the merchant cooperates after mentioning it because these are likely the merchants who won't otherwise change their behavior.)
Disabling DCC in Hong Kong and Macau
Hong Kong and Macau can get as non-compliant as China, possibly because many acquirers have cross-border operations and know they can get away with non-compliant firmware and procedures.
In practice, if you are given a DCC slip, and the cashier has not taken a choice before giving you your copy, the slip will be processed in your home currency - be prepared to dispute.
Unable to disable Global Payments DCC in Hong Kong instance #1, instance #2
Unable to disable DBS DCC in Fortress Electronics HK
Unable to disable BoC DCC in Free Duty HK
Disabling DCC in Japan and Korea
Japan's just starting out http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...ing-japan.html and http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=3939&p=17 #168 but there are no reports I know of where cardholders are compelled to use DCC against their will.
Korea is also not much affected by DCC but where offered, trying to opt out is harder than Japan due to the language barrier (both verbal and written)
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...hp?id=4303&p=3 #23
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #11
Disabling DCC in the Maldives
Disabling DCC on Global Payment terminals in the Maldives
Disabling DCC in Thailand and Taiwan
DCC present but generally not an issue. Cashier will generate quote slip is usually generated and pass to cardholder. When cardholder refuses, a verbage-free slip denominated in THB/TWD will be produced.
Certain Taiwan hotels may take deposits in cardholder currency. But these are only pre-authorisations and can be voided in full for TWD-only final checkout payments.
Disabling DCC on Websites
Airbnb - (Since the "loophole" seem not to work anymore, please report if you chargeback the DCC.
)
Hotwire - You need to select your preferred currency before making a search.
PayPal - The instructions to stop the DCC on a recurring charge are here.
I got duped by DCC already before I found this thread. Is there anything I can do?
If you've been hit with DCC and the merchant did not follow the Visa/MC rules, you should file a dispute with your card issuer. Even if the transaction is a small amount, it's worth it to dispute the charge on principle. Do not let merchants get away with this scam uncontested!
If you were not clearly given a choice of currencies and did not specifically communicate a preference to be billed in your card's native currency - if you did not accept DCC - then you have recourse when filing a dispute with your card issuer. The Visa Product and Service Rules clearly state (p 339):
You can even use terminology from Visa Product and Service Rules when filing the dispute, giving Reason Code 76: Incorrect Currency or Transaction Code. Reason Code 76 is used when the transaction was processed with an incorrect transaction code, or an incorrect currency code, or one of the following:
MasterCard's rules also clearly state that the POI Currency Conversion must be decided by both the merchant and customer. When filing a dispute with a MasterCard, list chargeback Reason Code 4846 from the MasterCard Chargeback Guide, which covers POI currency conversion disputes in the following circumstances:
You do have a choice of currencies. Exercise that choice!
Do not get taken by surprise when faced with DCC, and know your options. As Visa/MC purport, you do have a choice of currencies, but you need to make that choice heard! Don't be complacent in this sneaky tactic by some merchants to pad revenues.
Before going to a different country, get educated. Understand the exchange rate relative to your native currency. Know how to recognize when the merchant is trying to force DCC on the transaction, and pull out all of the stops to make sure it doesn't happen to you.
If you have a chip-and-PIN credit card, it's easier to control the transaction to try to prevent DCC. With chip-and-signature, if you get an uncooperative merchant, deface the merchant's copy of the receipt. Write LOCAL OPTION NOT OFFERED, cross out the DCC currency amount, and sign the receipt.
This will give additional evidence when filing a dispute to get the DCC charges refunded. When filing the dispute, you can use the Visa Exchange Rate Calculator or MasterCard's Currency Conversion Tool to determine the Visa or MasterCard exchange rate on the date the transaction posted to your credit card. Compare this to the DCC value to figure out the amount by which the merchant overcharged you. Don't forget to add in any Foreign Transaction Fee if your card has one. (If it does, you should really consider finding a card for use overseas without a FTF.)
Example Images (click for a larger image)
Hotel receipts in China, the Netherlands, and Dubai respectively:
Purchase receipts in China and Korea:
Cancelled translation in Hong Kong:
Novotel in Shenzen:
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) is a "service" some merchants and ATM operators offer that will charge a cardholder in the native currency of the card rather than the local currency. A more complete definition and examples are available via this Wikipedia article on DCC. While sold as a convenience to cardholders traveling outside of their home country, it is a pure profit play by the merchants. You may end up paying a fee of up to 8% over the purchase price for accepting DCC. Always decline DCC and asked to be billed in the local currency!
Where will I see it?
You can be hit with DCC anywhere there is a difference between your debit or credit card's denominated currency and the currency of the location where you're trying to use the card. The most common example will be at a merchant overseas, but now some ATMs are offering the service too. While many US cardholders complain about getting tricked into accepting DCC overseas, some merchants in the US have started to use DCC as well.
What is the issue?
Unless you're the merchant or ATM operator, there isn't much benefit to using DCC. Some customers say they prefer knowing exactly how much they'll be charged in their home currency or may not know the exchange rate of the place where they are visiting. For example, if you are in Prague for two days and you don't know how much the Czech Koruna is worth relative to the US Dollar, you might feel more comfortable knowing that you're buying an item for $205.00 versus 4000 CZK. However, the real exchange rate as of January 18, 2014 would place 4000 CZK at $197.18. You just paid an extra $7.82 for the "convenience" of knowing how much you'd be charged!
DCC often charges about a 4% premium over the true exchange rate. The problems don't stop there since many US banks still charge a 3% foreign transaction fee (FTF) for purchases made outside of the US. Not only would you get hit with the $205.00 charge, you could also find yourself facing a total charge of $211.15 if your card has a 3% FTF.
This is a pure money grab from the merchants, and it's billed as an easy way to squeeze additional revenue out of the transaction. Numerous [1, 2] articles have talked about DCC duping many consumers. Discover even has a warning about being tricked into DCC when using a card abroad.
For example, this FlyerTalk member reported that Avis charged his Saudi credit card in Saudi riyals instead of USD for a car rental in Florida without his consent. This has also been a trend for hotels, particularly large chains as indicated here and here.
DCC is simply not worth it for the consumer. Unless you like paying a convenience fee of up to 5% of the total transaction just to know how much you will be billed, you should always decline DCC and ask to be billed in local currency when handing over your card.
Furthermore, it is in your interest to obtain a card that has a 0% FTF. FlyerTalk member kebosabi maintains a fairly comprehensive spreadsheet of EMV-enabled cards ideal for overseas travel, many of which offer a low or 0% FTF as a feature. There is also a wiki at FlyerGuide of various FTF of debit and credit cards.
What can I do to avoid DCC?
American Express currently does not support DCC on its network, so you are safe from DCC if using an American Express card. However, Visa and MasterCard card networks can support DCC, so be vigilant when purchasing abroad with a Visa or MasterCard branded card. There have been reports of being charged DCC with a Discover card in China [citation needed], but primarily the issue is happening with Visa and MasterCard cards.
Before handing your card to the merchant, always specify clearly that you want to be charged in the local currency and that you do not want DCC. For some transactions, you retain control of your card as you dip it into a chip reader and can view on a screen to select which currency you want to use for the transaction. Always select the local currencyto get the best exchange rate. Do not select the card's native currency!
Similarly, for ATM withdrawals, make sure you decline any kind of conversions. Some good examples of what to look for when using an ATM overseas are here and here. You're probably coming off of a long flight and fatigued, but educating yourself beforehand can save you from getting ripped off. The user interfaces on almost all of these ATMs are set up to encourage you to take the bait, and you have to be extremely vigilant not to fall for it.
If you are doing a PIN-based transaction, you should have the opportunity to review the total amount and denomination of the transaction before entering your PIN. If you are doing a signature transaction and the merchant has processed your transaction with DCC, cross out the amount and write "DCC refused" on the receipt. Do not sign the receipt, and demand that the merchant reverse the transaction and run it in the local currency. If no verification is required due to a small purchase amount, ask the merchant to reverse the charge and repeat the transaction using local currency. If all else fails, file a dispute with your card issuer when you return home. Even if it's immaterial, the banks will get the message like they did with EMV.
Some merchants will claim that their systems have to bill you in your native currency. This is a complete lie. But just like a mag stripe only card, this is battle where you have to be prepared. Don't settle for merchants claiming that "it has to be done this way" or "pay cash if you don't want this". Be prepared to walk away, and, if you must complete the transaction, write "DCC refused & merchant didn't give a choice" on the receipt and cross out the amount. Let the merchant know that you will be filing a dispute with your bank.
Disabling DCC
Disabling DCC on ANZ terminals in Australia
ANZ markets DCC as Customer Preferred Currency (CPC). Terminal operators can contact ANZ Merchant Services at 1800 039 025 to have this feature disabled. Currently, your Visa or MasterCard will be subjected to DCC if denominated in: CAD, CHF, DKK, EUR, GBP, HKD, JPY, MYR, NOK, NZD, SEK, SGD, THB, USD, or ZAR. All DCC transactions on ANZ will cause a 2.5% markup. Steps to avoid DCC:
- Insert, swipe, or tap your payment card
- Have the cashier select credit (CR)
- The terminal will display CREDIT ACCOUNT
- If applicable, enter your PIN
- The terminal will display PROCESSING \ PLEASE WAIT
- The terminal will display EXCH <exchange rate> \ <currency> <amount> \ ACCEPT RATE? \ ENTER=YES CLR=NO
- Instruct the cashier to press the yellow CLEAR (CLR) button (If entering a PIN, you can retain the terminal to perform this step yourself. If entering a signature, you can ask for the terminal to control this process, not indicating that it's a chip-and-signature card.)
- The transaction should now process without DCC
If you see a signature slip with DCC verbiage and a checkbox indicating a currency selection, kindly ask the merchant to void the transaction. If it's a PIN-based transaction, you have an additional opportunity to cancel the transaction because it will ask for your PIN a second time. For instance, if you see "EUR 17.29 KEY PIN" refuse to enter your PIN and start again.
Disabling DCC in China
There are many reports of forced DCC in China, and there is a great thread [closed to new posts] on DCC in China on the the China Destinations forum.
Disabling DCC on Bankcomm terminals in Beijing http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #19
jair101's DCC instructions of March 2011 http://www.etveg.com/misc/DCC_China.pdf
Disabling DCC in Eurozone and UK
DCC offered in tourist traps (Harrods Knightsbridge/Galleries Lafayette Montparnesse/El Cortes Ingles Grand Via Madrid)
Unlike the rest of the world, Visa Europe does not require merchants to collect a ticked box on the slip (presumably because merchants there don't keep signed slips under Chip-and-PIN)
El Cortes Ingles collects a signature electronically and the DCC selection is made on the signature pad - the choice is respected.
Harrods and GL rely on cashier input in the POS for the currency choice - the cashier may forget to ask. The POS do not offer voiding (only refunds), but since you're given a slip to sign the best thing to do is to deface it before signing and submit chargeback request to issuer bank on return home.
There may be smaller merchants who also collect DCC but I seemed to have pre-empted most of them by saying "charge Euros (Pounds) please"
In Spain all merchants by law are required to provide you with a complaint form called an hoja de reclamaciones if requested. The form has two carbon copies. The customer retains one copy as a record of the complaint. The merchant maintains another copy, and the third is sent to the local consumer protection bureau. Merchants are also required to post a sign conspicuously informing the customer of the right to complain (usually in Spanish and English). Do not accept the lie that they don't have any forms. This is illegal, and you are able to call the police if the merchant refuses to provide you with this official form. It's interesting to see merchants start to squirm when you know the rules, and most merchants will start to be accommodating after you mention it. (Please still fill out the form even if the merchant cooperates after mentioning it because these are likely the merchants who won't otherwise change their behavior.)
Disabling DCC in Hong Kong and Macau
Hong Kong and Macau can get as non-compliant as China, possibly because many acquirers have cross-border operations and know they can get away with non-compliant firmware and procedures.
In practice, if you are given a DCC slip, and the cashier has not taken a choice before giving you your copy, the slip will be processed in your home currency - be prepared to dispute.
Unable to disable Global Payments DCC in Hong Kong instance #1, instance #2
Unable to disable DBS DCC in Fortress Electronics HK
Unable to disable BoC DCC in Free Duty HK
Disabling DCC in Japan and Korea
Japan's just starting out http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...ing-japan.html and http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=3939&p=17 #168 but there are no reports I know of where cardholders are compelled to use DCC against their will.
Korea is also not much affected by DCC but where offered, trying to opt out is harder than Japan due to the language barrier (both verbal and written)
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...hp?id=4303&p=3 #23
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #11
Disabling DCC in the Maldives
Disabling DCC on Global Payment terminals in the Maldives
Disabling DCC in Thailand and Taiwan
DCC present but generally not an issue. Cashier will generate quote slip is usually generated and pass to cardholder. When cardholder refuses, a verbage-free slip denominated in THB/TWD will be produced.
Certain Taiwan hotels may take deposits in cardholder currency. But these are only pre-authorisations and can be voided in full for TWD-only final checkout payments.
Disabling DCC on Websites
Airbnb - (Since the "loophole" seem not to work anymore, please report if you chargeback the DCC.
)Hotwire - You need to select your preferred currency before making a search.
PayPal - The instructions to stop the DCC on a recurring charge are here.
I got duped by DCC already before I found this thread. Is there anything I can do?
If you've been hit with DCC and the merchant did not follow the Visa/MC rules, you should file a dispute with your card issuer. Even if the transaction is a small amount, it's worth it to dispute the charge on principle. Do not let merchants get away with this scam uncontested!
If you were not clearly given a choice of currencies and did not specifically communicate a preference to be billed in your card's native currency - if you did not accept DCC - then you have recourse when filing a dispute with your card issuer. The Visa Product and Service Rules clearly state (p 339):
- Merchants that offer DCC must be compliant with the regulations
- Inform the cardholder that DCC is optional
- Not impose any additional requirements to use local currency
- Not use any language or procedures that may cause the cardholder to choose DCC by default
- Not convert a transaction in the local currency to the card's billing currency after the transaction has completed
- Ensure that the cardholder expressly agrees to DCC
You can even use terminology from Visa Product and Service Rules when filing the dispute, giving Reason Code 76: Incorrect Currency or Transaction Code. Reason Code 76 is used when the transaction was processed with an incorrect transaction code, or an incorrect currency code, or one of the following:
- Merchant did not deposit a transaction receipt in the country where the transaction occurred
- Cardholder was not advised that Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) would occur
- Cardholder was refused the choice of paying in the merchant’s local currency
- Merchant processed a credit refund and did not process a reversal or adjustment within 30 calendar days for a transaction receipt processed in error
MasterCard's rules also clearly state that the POI Currency Conversion must be decided by both the merchant and customer. When filing a dispute with a MasterCard, list chargeback Reason Code 4846 from the MasterCard Chargeback Guide, which covers POI currency conversion disputes in the following circumstances:
- The cardholder states that he or she was not given the opportunity to choose the desired currency in which the transactions was completed or did not agree to the currency of the transaction, or
- POI currency conversion took place into a currency that is not the cardholder's billing currency, or
- POI currency conversion took place when the goods or services were priced in the cardholder's billing currency, or
- POI currency conversion took place when cash was disbursed in the cardholdeer's billing currency.
You do have a choice of currencies. Exercise that choice!
Do not get taken by surprise when faced with DCC, and know your options. As Visa/MC purport, you do have a choice of currencies, but you need to make that choice heard! Don't be complacent in this sneaky tactic by some merchants to pad revenues.
Before going to a different country, get educated. Understand the exchange rate relative to your native currency. Know how to recognize when the merchant is trying to force DCC on the transaction, and pull out all of the stops to make sure it doesn't happen to you.
If you have a chip-and-PIN credit card, it's easier to control the transaction to try to prevent DCC. With chip-and-signature, if you get an uncooperative merchant, deface the merchant's copy of the receipt. Write LOCAL OPTION NOT OFFERED, cross out the DCC currency amount, and sign the receipt.
This will give additional evidence when filing a dispute to get the DCC charges refunded. When filing the dispute, you can use the Visa Exchange Rate Calculator or MasterCard's Currency Conversion Tool to determine the Visa or MasterCard exchange rate on the date the transaction posted to your credit card. Compare this to the DCC value to figure out the amount by which the merchant overcharged you. Don't forget to add in any Foreign Transaction Fee if your card has one. (If it does, you should really consider finding a card for use overseas without a FTF.
)Example Images (click for a larger image)
Hotel receipts in China, the Netherlands, and Dubai respectively:
Purchase receipts in China and Korea:
Cancelled translation in Hong Kong:
Novotel in Shenzen:
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) [2014-2016]
Feb 18, 2014, 5:59 am
#106
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Irvine CA & PEK
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Qantas Platinum, United S
Posts: 664
It's hard to generalize this and indeed some of it in a way is cultural. For example, maybe I'm an exception, but I have rarely encountered this scam in France. Perhaps it dates back to the time the French really wanted everybody to accept their culture and part of it was you paid in (French) francs. (Of course it's the euro now). The home and birthplace of this scam was Ireland (the Republic of). For years, they never asked and if you complained after the fqact, they had some lies ready for you. ("It's a good rate set by the Bank of Ireland. Besides you may not know your bank charges a fee for currency conversion." (Mine doesn't and of course it's a foreign transaction fee anyway). "The amount in your currency is just shown as an approximation' the transaction is being done in punts (the pre euro currency)." Or, "we have no control over it. The terminal does it automatically." Heard all of them in my arguments with merchants which was always followed by from me, "Please bring the manager." Of course, in Ireland I never heard, "No comprende Ingles" or something to that effect. Today, and I've seen this in operation say at Blarney Castle mall they do ask but they urge you the better choice is your currency. ("you lock in the rate." Like the rate ever changes in a single day by 5% but to be fair, when you say euro, that's the end of the story. They run the transaction properly.
It's a growing problem in London. Many of the rip off theatre agencies which pretend to be the official half price theatre agency on the walk from the underground station on Charing Cross Road to Leicester Square pull this automatically and claim its part of the deal to get the 1/2 (which is more than the official Leicester Square TKTS booth charges). Spain is getting bad (elcortes ingles a prime example). Italy is getting bad (but never been pulled on my at an Autogrill). Holland and Germany loathe credit cards as it is. For years, of course, in the so called Eastern bloc before 1989, transactions were often required by law to be done in wetern currency (the way these cash starved countries loaded up on convertible currency and it was legally required).
So as I said, it's hard to generalize. And let's not forget the many unscrupulous merchants in the USA who pull this sruff on foreign visitors to the USA!
It's a growing problem in London. Many of the rip off theatre agencies which pretend to be the official half price theatre agency on the walk from the underground station on Charing Cross Road to Leicester Square pull this automatically and claim its part of the deal to get the 1/2 (which is more than the official Leicester Square TKTS booth charges). Spain is getting bad (elcortes ingles a prime example). Italy is getting bad (but never been pulled on my at an Autogrill). Holland and Germany loathe credit cards as it is. For years, of course, in the so called Eastern bloc before 1989, transactions were often required by law to be done in wetern currency (the way these cash starved countries loaded up on convertible currency and it was legally required).
So as I said, it's hard to generalize. And let's not forget the many unscrupulous merchants in the USA who pull this sruff on foreign visitors to the USA!
Hong Kong - I don't think so
DCCing a FT Ambassador
Korea - DCC rollout is fairly limited.
Japan's just started http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=3939&p=17 #168
DCCing a FT Ambassador
Korea - DCC rollout is fairly limited.
Japan's just started http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=3939&p=17 #168
Hope (really hope) this is true to your experience of HK, percysmith, as you live there and can be more accurate on this.
And hope Japan's DCC can be as law-abiding as Korea's - asking before choosing.
Feb 18, 2014, 6:32 am
#107
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 42,044
Hope (really hope) this is true to your experience of HK, percysmith, as you live there and can be more accurate on this.
And hope Japan's DCC can be as law-abiding as Korea's - asking before choosing.
Feb 18, 2014, 8:09 am
#108
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,061
Hotel Arts receipt from 17 February 2014:
I was able to check out of Hotel Arts and avoid the DCC scam Monday morning. I was worried based on my recent experience at hotels in Europe trying to sneak in DCC, but yesterday morning I didn't have any problems. I specified that I wanted to be charged in euros, and the DCC free slip printed for me to sign. Their computer seems to be integrated with the POS terminal because the folio printout had the same transaction ID as the thermal paper receipt, which I embedded in the upper left. You can see the line about DCC as an option:
For your convenience you are able to settle your bill in the currency of your credit card. Should you wish to settle your bill in your local currency (not in EUR), please note that a 2% conversion rate mark-up from the bank is already included in the final amount. All exchange rates are sourced from Banco Santander.
At least they're honest about the mark-up, so it would be 2% above what Santander's rate is. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume their exchange rate is competitive, but why would you want to be 2% more just to be offered the convenience of being billed in your local currency?
I was able to check out of Hotel Arts and avoid the DCC scam Monday morning. I was worried based on my recent experience at hotels in Europe trying to sneak in DCC, but yesterday morning I didn't have any problems. I specified that I wanted to be charged in euros, and the DCC free slip printed for me to sign. Their computer seems to be integrated with the POS terminal because the folio printout had the same transaction ID as the thermal paper receipt, which I embedded in the upper left. You can see the line about DCC as an option:
For your convenience you are able to settle your bill in the currency of your credit card. Should you wish to settle your bill in your local currency (not in EUR), please note that a 2% conversion rate mark-up from the bank is already included in the final amount. All exchange rates are sourced from Banco Santander.
At least they're honest about the mark-up, so it would be 2% above what Santander's rate is. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume their exchange rate is competitive, but why would you want to be 2% more just to be offered the convenience of being billed in your local currency?
Feb 18, 2014, 8:17 am
#109
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At least they're honest about the mark-up, so it would be 2% above what Santander's rate is. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume their exchange rate is competitive, but why would you want to be 2% more just to be offered the convenience of being billed in your local currency?
Bank of China too complies with this requirement, it would be like you don't get arrested for robbery if you tell the victim they're gonna get robbed in advance.
Feb 18, 2014, 8:23 am
#110
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They certainly aren't able to anything about the Bank of Chinas and Bankcomms of this world.
All we can say is that they are non-compliant with Visa merchant and acquirer agreements and/or VIOR. But there is no consequence. Or even Visa/MC don't want to cut them off (at least acquire the merchant interchange part of the income).
Feb 18, 2014, 1:01 pm
#111
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...but in theory, mc/visa can prohibit them from continuing to take their cards. Note I said in theory. The odds of that happening are, of course, either none or non existant. It's the same as Capital One telling you that you don't need a card with emv chip since all merchants are required by visa (or mc) to accept any valid card. Right. Next time a kiosk refuses to perform a transacton, I'll be sure to report them. Wonder what will happen.
Feb 18, 2014, 1:57 pm
#112
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...but in theory, mc/visa can prohibit them from continuing to take their cards. Note I said in theory. The odds of that happening are, of course, either none or non existant. It's the same as Capital One telling you that you don't need a card with emv chip since all merchants are required by visa (or mc) to accept any valid card. Right. Next time a kiosk refuses to perform a transacton, I'll be sure to report them. Wonder what will happen.
Feb 18, 2014, 2:59 pm
#113
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I'm talking about what really happened in that case, not everyone making fun of the situation because someone got a bunch of money for spilling coffee. The lady kindly asked McDonald's to pay her (few thousand dollars, iirc) medical bills, and McDonald's told her to go pound sand. When she took the case to court asking only for compensatory damages, the jury awarded punitive damages. A similar award could force a behavior change and at least end the deceptive practices. I would have no problem if DCC were really a conscious choice with all of the information clearly presented to the customer.
*Note: I am typically not in favor of these cases as they're usually a net loss for both parties.
Feb 18, 2014, 8:08 pm
#114
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I actually had an email exchange about DCC with the lead attorney from the foreign transaction surcharge class action case a few years ago because I was curious as well. His response was that the cases are not comparable primarily because with DCC the blame is distributed among hundreds of thousands of infringing parties (primarily the merchants, and to some extent, the acquiring banks).
Feb 18, 2014, 10:26 pm
#115
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They do tie in in a way since if you're moronic enough to use a bank charging a foreign transaction fee, if you fall for the dcc scam, you're hit twice. First by the credit card processor (or the merchant) in using a rate above the interbank rate by as much as 5% and then the near criminal bank imposing a foreign transaction fee of 3%.
Now it really is a sticky wicket for the banks because one of the arguments of the credit card processors carrying out dcc is that it is necessary because mc/visa do indeed charge a 1% surcharge on the interbank rate for currency conversion and they and the merchants have a right to a piece of this action which is what dcc does. Besides, so they argue, if there weren't foreign transaction fees but only foreign currency conversion fees, it would all shake out pretty much the same in the end namely the credit card processor and by extension the merchant getting a share of the revenue from foreign currency conversion fees which the credit card banks (and mc/visa) keep for themselves. So, they argued, the banks had an unfair advantage and they were only attempting via dcc to even the playing field.
Officially, MC/visa claim they are opposed to dcc but because of litigation arguing what I just wrote above, they are forced to allow it. The credit card processors argue, naturally, that it is the banks who are ripping off their customers with foreign transaction fees and that if these didn't exist, the profits involved in foreign currency transactions could be more fairly shared by the banks, the credit card processors and the merchants. In other words, they say, don't blame us. We're entitled to a piece of this action. It's the banks that are the rip off agents.
Now it really is a sticky wicket for the banks because one of the arguments of the credit card processors carrying out dcc is that it is necessary because mc/visa do indeed charge a 1% surcharge on the interbank rate for currency conversion and they and the merchants have a right to a piece of this action which is what dcc does. Besides, so they argue, if there weren't foreign transaction fees but only foreign currency conversion fees, it would all shake out pretty much the same in the end namely the credit card processor and by extension the merchant getting a share of the revenue from foreign currency conversion fees which the credit card banks (and mc/visa) keep for themselves. So, they argued, the banks had an unfair advantage and they were only attempting via dcc to even the playing field.
Officially, MC/visa claim they are opposed to dcc but because of litigation arguing what I just wrote above, they are forced to allow it. The credit card processors argue, naturally, that it is the banks who are ripping off their customers with foreign transaction fees and that if these didn't exist, the profits involved in foreign currency transactions could be more fairly shared by the banks, the credit card processors and the merchants. In other words, they say, don't blame us. We're entitled to a piece of this action. It's the banks that are the rip off agents.
Feb 18, 2014, 11:39 pm
#116
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The credit card processors argue, naturally, that it is the banks who are ripping off their customers with foreign transaction fees and that if these didn't exist, the profits involved in foreign currency transactions could be more fairly shared by the banks, the credit card processors and the merchants. In other words, they say, don't blame us. We're entitled to a piece of this action. It's the banks that are the rip off agents.
If a merchant provided DCC with competitive exchange rates that were disclosed up front, it would be a different story. Of course, they won't, because for every one customer who will compare exchange rates and choose a button to press, there will be ten that fall for the "convenience of being billed in your own currency" argument, and merchants will do what yields the most profit.
Feb 19, 2014, 12:07 am
#117
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Now it really is a sticky wicket for the banks because one of the arguments of the credit card processors carrying out dcc is that it is necessary because mc/visa do indeed charge a 1% surcharge on the interbank rate for currency conversion and they and the merchants have a right to a piece of this action which is what dcc does.
Visa doesn't, but we have banks (Dah Sing) who imposes the fee on Visas as well even though none is charged by Visa Inc (so in reality that fee becomea a bank-collected fee).
If (MC at least) wants to claim antitrust protection by allowing DCC, they should not be allowed to collect the 0.8% foreign transactions fee. That's just like saying you can shop elsewhere but we'll still be allowed to collect the price difference if you find the same service for cheaper.
Feb 19, 2014, 12:49 am
#118
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DCC has been adequately disclosed since its inception (possibly in part to preempt a repeat of CCF).
Feb 19, 2014, 2:07 am
#119
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The judgement against the defendants in the CCF case had nothing to do with the fees themselves, but with the fact that they were not properly disclosed. The fees continue to get charged, but now card issuing banks tell you this in advance.
DCC has been adequately disclosed since its inception (possibly in part to preempt a repeat of CCF).
DCC has been adequately disclosed since its inception (possibly in part to preempt a repeat of CCF).
Feb 19, 2014, 8:05 am
#120
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