Jan 18, 2014, 10:10 pm
Last edit by: emilio911
What is it?
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) is a "service" some merchants and ATM operators offer that will charge a cardholder in the native currency of the card rather than the local currency. A more complete definition and examples are available via this Wikipedia article on DCC. While sold as a convenience to cardholders traveling outside of their home country, it is a pure profit play by the merchants. You may end up paying a fee of up to 8% over the purchase price for accepting DCC. Always decline DCC and asked to be billed in the local currency!
Where will I see it?
You can be hit with DCC anywhere there is a difference between your debit or credit card's denominated currency and the currency of the location where you're trying to use the card. The most common example will be at a merchant overseas, but now some ATMs are offering the service too. While many US cardholders complain about getting tricked into accepting DCC overseas, some merchants in the US have started to use DCC as well.
What is the issue?
Unless you're the merchant or ATM operator, there isn't much benefit to using DCC. Some customers say they prefer knowing exactly how much they'll be charged in their home currency or may not know the exchange rate of the place where they are visiting. For example, if you are in Prague for two days and you don't know how much the Czech Koruna is worth relative to the US Dollar, you might feel more comfortable knowing that you're buying an item for $205.00 versus 4000 CZK. However, the real exchange rate as of January 18, 2014 would place 4000 CZK at $197.18. You just paid an extra $7.82 for the "convenience" of knowing how much you'd be charged!
DCC often charges about a 4% premium over the true exchange rate. The problems don't stop there since many US banks still charge a 3% foreign transaction fee (FTF) for purchases made outside of the US. Not only would you get hit with the $205.00 charge, you could also find yourself facing a total charge of $211.15 if your card has a 3% FTF.
This is a pure money grab from the merchants, and it's billed as an easy way to squeeze additional revenue out of the transaction. Numerous [1, 2] articles have talked about DCC duping many consumers. Discover even has a warning about being tricked into DCC when using a card abroad.
For example, this FlyerTalk member reported that Avis charged his Saudi credit card in Saudi riyals instead of USD for a car rental in Florida without his consent. This has also been a trend for hotels, particularly large chains as indicated here and here.
DCC is simply not worth it for the consumer. Unless you like paying a convenience fee of up to 5% of the total transaction just to know how much you will be billed, you should always decline DCC and ask to be billed in local currency when handing over your card.
Furthermore, it is in your interest to obtain a card that has a 0% FTF. FlyerTalk member kebosabi maintains a fairly comprehensive spreadsheet of EMV-enabled cards ideal for overseas travel, many of which offer a low or 0% FTF as a feature. There is also a wiki at FlyerGuide of various FTF of debit and credit cards.
What can I do to avoid DCC?
American Express currently does not support DCC on its network, so you are safe from DCC if using an American Express card. However, Visa and MasterCard card networks can support DCC, so be vigilant when purchasing abroad with a Visa or MasterCard branded card. There have been reports of being charged DCC with a Discover card in China [citation needed], but primarily the issue is happening with Visa and MasterCard cards.
Before handing your card to the merchant, always specify clearly that you want to be charged in the local currency and that you do not want DCC. For some transactions, you retain control of your card as you dip it into a chip reader and can view on a screen to select which currency you want to use for the transaction. Always select the local currencyto get the best exchange rate. Do not select the card's native currency!
Similarly, for ATM withdrawals, make sure you decline any kind of conversions. Some good examples of what to look for when using an ATM overseas are here and here. You're probably coming off of a long flight and fatigued, but educating yourself beforehand can save you from getting ripped off. The user interfaces on almost all of these ATMs are set up to encourage you to take the bait, and you have to be extremely vigilant not to fall for it.
If you are doing a PIN-based transaction, you should have the opportunity to review the total amount and denomination of the transaction before entering your PIN. If you are doing a signature transaction and the merchant has processed your transaction with DCC, cross out the amount and write "DCC refused" on the receipt. Do not sign the receipt, and demand that the merchant reverse the transaction and run it in the local currency. If no verification is required due to a small purchase amount, ask the merchant to reverse the charge and repeat the transaction using local currency. If all else fails, file a dispute with your card issuer when you return home. Even if it's immaterial, the banks will get the message like they did with EMV.
Some merchants will claim that their systems have to bill you in your native currency. This is a complete lie. But just like a mag stripe only card, this is battle where you have to be prepared. Don't settle for merchants claiming that "it has to be done this way" or "pay cash if you don't want this". Be prepared to walk away, and, if you must complete the transaction, write "DCC refused & merchant didn't give a choice" on the receipt and cross out the amount. Let the merchant know that you will be filing a dispute with your bank.
Disabling DCC
Disabling DCC on ANZ terminals in Australia
ANZ markets DCC as Customer Preferred Currency (CPC). Terminal operators can contact ANZ Merchant Services at 1800 039 025 to have this feature disabled. Currently, your Visa or MasterCard will be subjected to DCC if denominated in: CAD, CHF, DKK, EUR, GBP, HKD, JPY, MYR, NOK, NZD, SEK, SGD, THB, USD, or ZAR. All DCC transactions on ANZ will cause a 2.5% markup. Steps to avoid DCC:
If you see a signature slip with DCC verbiage and a checkbox indicating a currency selection, kindly ask the merchant to void the transaction. If it's a PIN-based transaction, you have an additional opportunity to cancel the transaction because it will ask for your PIN a second time. For instance, if you see "EUR 17.29 KEY PIN" refuse to enter your PIN and start again.
Disabling DCC in China
There are many reports of forced DCC in China, and there is a great thread [closed to new posts] on DCC in China on the the China Destinations forum.
Disabling DCC on Bankcomm terminals in Beijing http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #19
jair101's DCC instructions of March 2011 http://www.etveg.com/misc/DCC_China.pdf
Disabling DCC in Eurozone and UK
DCC offered in tourist traps (Harrods Knightsbridge/Galleries Lafayette Montparnesse/El Cortes Ingles Grand Via Madrid)
Unlike the rest of the world, Visa Europe does not require merchants to collect a ticked box on the slip (presumably because merchants there don't keep signed slips under Chip-and-PIN)
El Cortes Ingles collects a signature electronically and the DCC selection is made on the signature pad - the choice is respected.
Harrods and GL rely on cashier input in the POS for the currency choice - the cashier may forget to ask. The POS do not offer voiding (only refunds), but since you're given a slip to sign the best thing to do is to deface it before signing and submit chargeback request to issuer bank on return home.
There may be smaller merchants who also collect DCC but I seemed to have pre-empted most of them by saying "charge Euros (Pounds) please"
In Spain all merchants by law are required to provide you with a complaint form called an hoja de reclamaciones if requested. The form has two carbon copies. The customer retains one copy as a record of the complaint. The merchant maintains another copy, and the third is sent to the local consumer protection bureau. Merchants are also required to post a sign conspicuously informing the customer of the right to complain (usually in Spanish and English). Do not accept the lie that they don't have any forms. This is illegal, and you are able to call the police if the merchant refuses to provide you with this official form. It's interesting to see merchants start to squirm when you know the rules, and most merchants will start to be accommodating after you mention it. (Please still fill out the form even if the merchant cooperates after mentioning it because these are likely the merchants who won't otherwise change their behavior.)
Disabling DCC in Hong Kong and Macau
Hong Kong and Macau can get as non-compliant as China, possibly because many acquirers have cross-border operations and know they can get away with non-compliant firmware and procedures.
In practice, if you are given a DCC slip, and the cashier has not taken a choice before giving you your copy, the slip will be processed in your home currency - be prepared to dispute.
Unable to disable Global Payments DCC in Hong Kong instance #1, instance #2
Unable to disable DBS DCC in Fortress Electronics HK
Unable to disable BoC DCC in Free Duty HK
Disabling DCC in Japan and Korea
Japan's just starting out http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...ing-japan.html and http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=3939&p=17 #168 but there are no reports I know of where cardholders are compelled to use DCC against their will.
Korea is also not much affected by DCC but where offered, trying to opt out is harder than Japan due to the language barrier (both verbal and written)
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...hp?id=4303&p=3 #23
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #11
Disabling DCC in the Maldives
Disabling DCC on Global Payment terminals in the Maldives
Disabling DCC in Thailand and Taiwan
DCC present but generally not an issue. Cashier will generate quote slip is usually generated and pass to cardholder. When cardholder refuses, a verbage-free slip denominated in THB/TWD will be produced.
Certain Taiwan hotels may take deposits in cardholder currency. But these are only pre-authorisations and can be voided in full for TWD-only final checkout payments.
Disabling DCC on Websites
Airbnb - (Since the "loophole" seem not to work anymore, please report if you chargeback the DCC.
)
Hotwire - You need to select your preferred currency before making a search.
PayPal - The instructions to stop the DCC on a recurring charge are here.
I got duped by DCC already before I found this thread. Is there anything I can do?
If you've been hit with DCC and the merchant did not follow the Visa/MC rules, you should file a dispute with your card issuer. Even if the transaction is a small amount, it's worth it to dispute the charge on principle. Do not let merchants get away with this scam uncontested!
If you were not clearly given a choice of currencies and did not specifically communicate a preference to be billed in your card's native currency - if you did not accept DCC - then you have recourse when filing a dispute with your card issuer. The Visa Product and Service Rules clearly state (p 339):
You can even use terminology from Visa Product and Service Rules when filing the dispute, giving Reason Code 76: Incorrect Currency or Transaction Code. Reason Code 76 is used when the transaction was processed with an incorrect transaction code, or an incorrect currency code, or one of the following:
MasterCard's rules also clearly state that the POI Currency Conversion must be decided by both the merchant and customer. When filing a dispute with a MasterCard, list chargeback Reason Code 4846 from the MasterCard Chargeback Guide, which covers POI currency conversion disputes in the following circumstances:
You do have a choice of currencies. Exercise that choice!
Do not get taken by surprise when faced with DCC, and know your options. As Visa/MC purport, you do have a choice of currencies, but you need to make that choice heard! Don't be complacent in this sneaky tactic by some merchants to pad revenues.
Before going to a different country, get educated. Understand the exchange rate relative to your native currency. Know how to recognize when the merchant is trying to force DCC on the transaction, and pull out all of the stops to make sure it doesn't happen to you.
If you have a chip-and-PIN credit card, it's easier to control the transaction to try to prevent DCC. With chip-and-signature, if you get an uncooperative merchant, deface the merchant's copy of the receipt. Write LOCAL OPTION NOT OFFERED, cross out the DCC currency amount, and sign the receipt.
This will give additional evidence when filing a dispute to get the DCC charges refunded. When filing the dispute, you can use the Visa Exchange Rate Calculator or MasterCard's Currency Conversion Tool to determine the Visa or MasterCard exchange rate on the date the transaction posted to your credit card. Compare this to the DCC value to figure out the amount by which the merchant overcharged you. Don't forget to add in any Foreign Transaction Fee if your card has one. (If it does, you should really consider finding a card for use overseas without a FTF.)
Example Images (click for a larger image)
Hotel receipts in China, the Netherlands, and Dubai respectively:
Purchase receipts in China and Korea:
Cancelled translation in Hong Kong:
Novotel in Shenzen:
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) is a "service" some merchants and ATM operators offer that will charge a cardholder in the native currency of the card rather than the local currency. A more complete definition and examples are available via this Wikipedia article on DCC. While sold as a convenience to cardholders traveling outside of their home country, it is a pure profit play by the merchants. You may end up paying a fee of up to 8% over the purchase price for accepting DCC. Always decline DCC and asked to be billed in the local currency!
Where will I see it?
You can be hit with DCC anywhere there is a difference between your debit or credit card's denominated currency and the currency of the location where you're trying to use the card. The most common example will be at a merchant overseas, but now some ATMs are offering the service too. While many US cardholders complain about getting tricked into accepting DCC overseas, some merchants in the US have started to use DCC as well.
What is the issue?
Unless you're the merchant or ATM operator, there isn't much benefit to using DCC. Some customers say they prefer knowing exactly how much they'll be charged in their home currency or may not know the exchange rate of the place where they are visiting. For example, if you are in Prague for two days and you don't know how much the Czech Koruna is worth relative to the US Dollar, you might feel more comfortable knowing that you're buying an item for $205.00 versus 4000 CZK. However, the real exchange rate as of January 18, 2014 would place 4000 CZK at $197.18. You just paid an extra $7.82 for the "convenience" of knowing how much you'd be charged!
DCC often charges about a 4% premium over the true exchange rate. The problems don't stop there since many US banks still charge a 3% foreign transaction fee (FTF) for purchases made outside of the US. Not only would you get hit with the $205.00 charge, you could also find yourself facing a total charge of $211.15 if your card has a 3% FTF.
This is a pure money grab from the merchants, and it's billed as an easy way to squeeze additional revenue out of the transaction. Numerous [1, 2] articles have talked about DCC duping many consumers. Discover even has a warning about being tricked into DCC when using a card abroad.
For example, this FlyerTalk member reported that Avis charged his Saudi credit card in Saudi riyals instead of USD for a car rental in Florida without his consent. This has also been a trend for hotels, particularly large chains as indicated here and here.
DCC is simply not worth it for the consumer. Unless you like paying a convenience fee of up to 5% of the total transaction just to know how much you will be billed, you should always decline DCC and ask to be billed in local currency when handing over your card.
Furthermore, it is in your interest to obtain a card that has a 0% FTF. FlyerTalk member kebosabi maintains a fairly comprehensive spreadsheet of EMV-enabled cards ideal for overseas travel, many of which offer a low or 0% FTF as a feature. There is also a wiki at FlyerGuide of various FTF of debit and credit cards.
What can I do to avoid DCC?
American Express currently does not support DCC on its network, so you are safe from DCC if using an American Express card. However, Visa and MasterCard card networks can support DCC, so be vigilant when purchasing abroad with a Visa or MasterCard branded card. There have been reports of being charged DCC with a Discover card in China [citation needed], but primarily the issue is happening with Visa and MasterCard cards.
Before handing your card to the merchant, always specify clearly that you want to be charged in the local currency and that you do not want DCC. For some transactions, you retain control of your card as you dip it into a chip reader and can view on a screen to select which currency you want to use for the transaction. Always select the local currencyto get the best exchange rate. Do not select the card's native currency!
Similarly, for ATM withdrawals, make sure you decline any kind of conversions. Some good examples of what to look for when using an ATM overseas are here and here. You're probably coming off of a long flight and fatigued, but educating yourself beforehand can save you from getting ripped off. The user interfaces on almost all of these ATMs are set up to encourage you to take the bait, and you have to be extremely vigilant not to fall for it.
If you are doing a PIN-based transaction, you should have the opportunity to review the total amount and denomination of the transaction before entering your PIN. If you are doing a signature transaction and the merchant has processed your transaction with DCC, cross out the amount and write "DCC refused" on the receipt. Do not sign the receipt, and demand that the merchant reverse the transaction and run it in the local currency. If no verification is required due to a small purchase amount, ask the merchant to reverse the charge and repeat the transaction using local currency. If all else fails, file a dispute with your card issuer when you return home. Even if it's immaterial, the banks will get the message like they did with EMV.
Some merchants will claim that their systems have to bill you in your native currency. This is a complete lie. But just like a mag stripe only card, this is battle where you have to be prepared. Don't settle for merchants claiming that "it has to be done this way" or "pay cash if you don't want this". Be prepared to walk away, and, if you must complete the transaction, write "DCC refused & merchant didn't give a choice" on the receipt and cross out the amount. Let the merchant know that you will be filing a dispute with your bank.
Disabling DCC
Disabling DCC on ANZ terminals in Australia
ANZ markets DCC as Customer Preferred Currency (CPC). Terminal operators can contact ANZ Merchant Services at 1800 039 025 to have this feature disabled. Currently, your Visa or MasterCard will be subjected to DCC if denominated in: CAD, CHF, DKK, EUR, GBP, HKD, JPY, MYR, NOK, NZD, SEK, SGD, THB, USD, or ZAR. All DCC transactions on ANZ will cause a 2.5% markup. Steps to avoid DCC:
- Insert, swipe, or tap your payment card
- Have the cashier select credit (CR)
- The terminal will display CREDIT ACCOUNT
- If applicable, enter your PIN
- The terminal will display PROCESSING \ PLEASE WAIT
- The terminal will display EXCH <exchange rate> \ <currency> <amount> \ ACCEPT RATE? \ ENTER=YES CLR=NO
- Instruct the cashier to press the yellow CLEAR (CLR) button (If entering a PIN, you can retain the terminal to perform this step yourself. If entering a signature, you can ask for the terminal to control this process, not indicating that it's a chip-and-signature card.)
- The transaction should now process without DCC
If you see a signature slip with DCC verbiage and a checkbox indicating a currency selection, kindly ask the merchant to void the transaction. If it's a PIN-based transaction, you have an additional opportunity to cancel the transaction because it will ask for your PIN a second time. For instance, if you see "EUR 17.29 KEY PIN" refuse to enter your PIN and start again.
Disabling DCC in China
There are many reports of forced DCC in China, and there is a great thread [closed to new posts] on DCC in China on the the China Destinations forum.
Disabling DCC on Bankcomm terminals in Beijing http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #19
jair101's DCC instructions of March 2011 http://www.etveg.com/misc/DCC_China.pdf
Disabling DCC in Eurozone and UK
DCC offered in tourist traps (Harrods Knightsbridge/Galleries Lafayette Montparnesse/El Cortes Ingles Grand Via Madrid)
Unlike the rest of the world, Visa Europe does not require merchants to collect a ticked box on the slip (presumably because merchants there don't keep signed slips under Chip-and-PIN)
El Cortes Ingles collects a signature electronically and the DCC selection is made on the signature pad - the choice is respected.
Harrods and GL rely on cashier input in the POS for the currency choice - the cashier may forget to ask. The POS do not offer voiding (only refunds), but since you're given a slip to sign the best thing to do is to deface it before signing and submit chargeback request to issuer bank on return home.
There may be smaller merchants who also collect DCC but I seemed to have pre-empted most of them by saying "charge Euros (Pounds) please"
In Spain all merchants by law are required to provide you with a complaint form called an hoja de reclamaciones if requested. The form has two carbon copies. The customer retains one copy as a record of the complaint. The merchant maintains another copy, and the third is sent to the local consumer protection bureau. Merchants are also required to post a sign conspicuously informing the customer of the right to complain (usually in Spanish and English). Do not accept the lie that they don't have any forms. This is illegal, and you are able to call the police if the merchant refuses to provide you with this official form. It's interesting to see merchants start to squirm when you know the rules, and most merchants will start to be accommodating after you mention it. (Please still fill out the form even if the merchant cooperates after mentioning it because these are likely the merchants who won't otherwise change their behavior.)
Disabling DCC in Hong Kong and Macau
Hong Kong and Macau can get as non-compliant as China, possibly because many acquirers have cross-border operations and know they can get away with non-compliant firmware and procedures.
In practice, if you are given a DCC slip, and the cashier has not taken a choice before giving you your copy, the slip will be processed in your home currency - be prepared to dispute.
Unable to disable Global Payments DCC in Hong Kong instance #1, instance #2
Unable to disable DBS DCC in Fortress Electronics HK
Unable to disable BoC DCC in Free Duty HK
Disabling DCC in Japan and Korea
Japan's just starting out http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...ing-japan.html and http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=3939&p=17 #168 but there are no reports I know of where cardholders are compelled to use DCC against their will.
Korea is also not much affected by DCC but where offered, trying to opt out is harder than Japan due to the language barrier (both verbal and written)
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...hp?id=4303&p=3 #23
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #11
Disabling DCC in the Maldives
Disabling DCC on Global Payment terminals in the Maldives
Disabling DCC in Thailand and Taiwan
DCC present but generally not an issue. Cashier will generate quote slip is usually generated and pass to cardholder. When cardholder refuses, a verbage-free slip denominated in THB/TWD will be produced.
Certain Taiwan hotels may take deposits in cardholder currency. But these are only pre-authorisations and can be voided in full for TWD-only final checkout payments.
Disabling DCC on Websites
Airbnb - (Since the "loophole" seem not to work anymore, please report if you chargeback the DCC.
)Hotwire - You need to select your preferred currency before making a search.
PayPal - The instructions to stop the DCC on a recurring charge are here.
I got duped by DCC already before I found this thread. Is there anything I can do?
If you've been hit with DCC and the merchant did not follow the Visa/MC rules, you should file a dispute with your card issuer. Even if the transaction is a small amount, it's worth it to dispute the charge on principle. Do not let merchants get away with this scam uncontested!
If you were not clearly given a choice of currencies and did not specifically communicate a preference to be billed in your card's native currency - if you did not accept DCC - then you have recourse when filing a dispute with your card issuer. The Visa Product and Service Rules clearly state (p 339):
- Merchants that offer DCC must be compliant with the regulations
- Inform the cardholder that DCC is optional
- Not impose any additional requirements to use local currency
- Not use any language or procedures that may cause the cardholder to choose DCC by default
- Not convert a transaction in the local currency to the card's billing currency after the transaction has completed
- Ensure that the cardholder expressly agrees to DCC
You can even use terminology from Visa Product and Service Rules when filing the dispute, giving Reason Code 76: Incorrect Currency or Transaction Code. Reason Code 76 is used when the transaction was processed with an incorrect transaction code, or an incorrect currency code, or one of the following:
- Merchant did not deposit a transaction receipt in the country where the transaction occurred
- Cardholder was not advised that Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) would occur
- Cardholder was refused the choice of paying in the merchant’s local currency
- Merchant processed a credit refund and did not process a reversal or adjustment within 30 calendar days for a transaction receipt processed in error
MasterCard's rules also clearly state that the POI Currency Conversion must be decided by both the merchant and customer. When filing a dispute with a MasterCard, list chargeback Reason Code 4846 from the MasterCard Chargeback Guide, which covers POI currency conversion disputes in the following circumstances:
- The cardholder states that he or she was not given the opportunity to choose the desired currency in which the transactions was completed or did not agree to the currency of the transaction, or
- POI currency conversion took place into a currency that is not the cardholder's billing currency, or
- POI currency conversion took place when the goods or services were priced in the cardholder's billing currency, or
- POI currency conversion took place when cash was disbursed in the cardholdeer's billing currency.
You do have a choice of currencies. Exercise that choice!
Do not get taken by surprise when faced with DCC, and know your options. As Visa/MC purport, you do have a choice of currencies, but you need to make that choice heard! Don't be complacent in this sneaky tactic by some merchants to pad revenues.
Before going to a different country, get educated. Understand the exchange rate relative to your native currency. Know how to recognize when the merchant is trying to force DCC on the transaction, and pull out all of the stops to make sure it doesn't happen to you.
If you have a chip-and-PIN credit card, it's easier to control the transaction to try to prevent DCC. With chip-and-signature, if you get an uncooperative merchant, deface the merchant's copy of the receipt. Write LOCAL OPTION NOT OFFERED, cross out the DCC currency amount, and sign the receipt.
This will give additional evidence when filing a dispute to get the DCC charges refunded. When filing the dispute, you can use the Visa Exchange Rate Calculator or MasterCard's Currency Conversion Tool to determine the Visa or MasterCard exchange rate on the date the transaction posted to your credit card. Compare this to the DCC value to figure out the amount by which the merchant overcharged you. Don't forget to add in any Foreign Transaction Fee if your card has one. (If it does, you should really consider finding a card for use overseas without a FTF.
)Example Images (click for a larger image)
Hotel receipts in China, the Netherlands, and Dubai respectively:
Purchase receipts in China and Korea:
Cancelled translation in Hong Kong:
Novotel in Shenzen:
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) [2014-2016]
Jul 24, 2014, 8:05 am
#856
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Irvine CA & PEK
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Qantas Platinum, United S
Posts: 664
This is quite useful, although the speed is 2G, but you can get all the exchange rate with EDGE anyway.
Actually, the $120 rate I listed is the top tier. The lowest is $30 for 120MB.
The problem with local SIM is that you first have to be there once to get the SIM, so next time you can do the swap on the plane. And if you are traveling through Europe, getting local SIMsssssssss can really be a challenge.
Also, if you use iPhones, swapping SIM cards can cause some technical issues on iMessage and so.
That's why I have a China Unicom iPhone for China, a 3HK HTC for HK, and a AT&T HTC for USA. I also have a AT&T hotspot, and I always activate the $120 for 800MB before any week long vacation. That will survive the internet surfing of me and my wife for about 10 days.
Jul 24, 2014, 9:50 am
#857
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,066
+1
This is quite useful, although the speed is 2G, but you can get all the exchange rate with EDGE anyway.
Actually, the $120 rate I listed is the top tier. The lowest is $30 for 120MB.
The problem with local SIM is that you first have to be there once to get the SIM, so next time you can do the swap on the plane. And if you are traveling through Europe, getting local SIMsssssssss can really be a challenge.
Also, if you use iPhones, swapping SIM cards can cause some technical issues on iMessage and so.
That's why I have a China Unicom iPhone for China, a 3HK HTC for HK, and a AT&T HTC for USA. I also have a AT&T hotspot, and I always activate the $120 for 800MB before any week long vacation. That will survive the internet surfing of me and my wife for about 10 days.
This is quite useful, although the speed is 2G, but you can get all the exchange rate with EDGE anyway.
Actually, the $120 rate I listed is the top tier. The lowest is $30 for 120MB.
The problem with local SIM is that you first have to be there once to get the SIM, so next time you can do the swap on the plane. And if you are traveling through Europe, getting local SIMsssssssss can really be a challenge.
Also, if you use iPhones, swapping SIM cards can cause some technical issues on iMessage and so.
That's why I have a China Unicom iPhone for China, a 3HK HTC for HK, and a AT&T HTC for USA. I also have a AT&T hotspot, and I always activate the $120 for 800MB before any week long vacation. That will survive the internet surfing of me and my wife for about 10 days.
I ended up having to buy another SIM. So, in that sense, the T-Mobile package has been great for international traveling and a quick way to get information like exchange rates or pending credit card transactions to see if I've been hit with DCC.
Jul 24, 2014, 10:17 am
#858
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 19,804
roaming data is a bit like DCC in the aspect that if you're fully aware, and willing to spend a bit of time on the problem then you can probably make savings.
It also penalises impatience - I was chastised by my boss for trying to buy a SIM card from K-Books in ICN...took forever because the sales girl had to link the SIM to the BP I flew in on (must be OZ. They won't sell me the SIM if I present CX boarding pass).
I now more often then not rent a HK$60/day (US$7.7) modem from HK before departure - but that's preparation also.
The only difference is how we perceive the value of the thing we're paying for.
With roaming we see it as a value-added service, for which we either get fleeced by our local phone carrier for roaming or we take the time to make the alternative work.
With DCC, we had a working, relatively low cost solution which is being taken away from us by underhanded means.
http://loyaltylobby.com/2013/08/14/w...ith-sim-cards/
It also penalises impatience - I was chastised by my boss for trying to buy a SIM card from K-Books in ICN...took forever because the sales girl had to link the SIM to the BP I flew in on (must be OZ. They won't sell me the SIM if I present CX boarding pass).
I now more often then not rent a HK$60/day (US$7.7) modem from HK before departure - but that's preparation also.
The only difference is how we perceive the value of the thing we're paying for.
With roaming we see it as a value-added service, for which we either get fleeced by our local phone carrier for roaming or we take the time to make the alternative work.
With DCC, we had a working, relatively low cost solution which is being taken away from us by underhanded means.
http://loyaltylobby.com/2013/08/14/w...ith-sim-cards/
Jul 24, 2014, 10:38 am
#859
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 19,804
You can't really put the genie back in the bottle - even if there is some way to compel Visa/MC to turn off DCC support in their card associations tomorrow, they're either in breach of their contractual arrangements or the DCC providers will sue Visa/MC for lack of due process anyway.
You can't really provide effective competition against the two card associations because of network effect so this problem isn't going away on its own.
You can't let issuers opt-out of DCC on behalf of cardholders either, because on the flip side, they will all choose to do so (and protect their FTF/Foreign Currency Conversion fees) which will leave Visa/MC exposed to antitrust charges.
What's left?
I suggested a Visa-operated chargeback mechanism before.
But what's probably simpler is to allow Visa/MC to let cardholders opt-in to no DCC.
It will be like a do-not-call register. Visa runs the site.
Anyone who registers cannot be DCCed no matter what how fxcked the terminal is.
Interesting option, though I won't trust certain competition watchdogs like ACCC going for it though, they're trying to make Visa make DCC more available!
Jul 24, 2014, 8:25 pm
#860
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,762
As laid out by Visa/MC, it really never will be. There's never any meaningful competition if you have one DCC provider competing against the card association, and by a combination of misrepresentations, social engineering and outright non-compliance, cardholders rarely make meaningful, informed choices anyway.
You can't really put the genie back in the bottle - even if there is some way to compel Visa/MC to turn off DCC support in their card associations tomorrow, they're either in breach of their contractual arrangements or the DCC providers will sue Visa/MC for lack of due process anyway.
You can't really provide effective competition against the two card associations because of network effect so this problem isn't going away on its own.
You can't let issuers opt-out of DCC on behalf of cardholders either, because on the flip side, they will all choose to do so (and protect their FTF/Foreign Currency Conversion fees) which will leave Visa/MC exposed to antitrust charges.
What's left?
I suggested a Visa-operated chargeback mechanism before.
But what's probably simpler is to allow Visa/MC to let cardholders opt-in to no DCC.
It will be like a do-not-call register. Visa runs the site.
Anyone who registers cannot be DCCed no matter what how fxcked the terminal is.
Interesting option, though I won't trust certain competition watchdogs like ACCC going for it though, they're trying to make Visa make DCC more available!
You can't really put the genie back in the bottle - even if there is some way to compel Visa/MC to turn off DCC support in their card associations tomorrow, they're either in breach of their contractual arrangements or the DCC providers will sue Visa/MC for lack of due process anyway.
You can't really provide effective competition against the two card associations because of network effect so this problem isn't going away on its own.
You can't let issuers opt-out of DCC on behalf of cardholders either, because on the flip side, they will all choose to do so (and protect their FTF/Foreign Currency Conversion fees) which will leave Visa/MC exposed to antitrust charges.
What's left?
I suggested a Visa-operated chargeback mechanism before.
But what's probably simpler is to allow Visa/MC to let cardholders opt-in to no DCC.
It will be like a do-not-call register. Visa runs the site.
Anyone who registers cannot be DCCed no matter what how fxcked the terminal is.
Interesting option, though I won't trust certain competition watchdogs like ACCC going for it though, they're trying to make Visa make DCC more available!
Jul 24, 2014, 8:59 pm
#861
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,066
But then again, Amex doesn't allow DCC , right? Where there's a will, there's a way. The acquirers who push DCC always say don't blame us. We're just providing a service many cardholders find convenient and if truth be told, as we've just discussed, many do. DCC in and of itself is not a scam provided I as a customer am given the choice required by visa/mc. In that regard, acquirers who push dcc may have a valid point that they are providing a service for those who wish it and in all fairness even though I hate DCC since I'm a big boy and can do the mental arithmetic on my own when I purchase something for 20 euro, I pretty much know how much I'm spending in USD, there are still those who can't or don't want to handle it. Whose fault is that?
Jul 25, 2014, 3:30 am
#862
Join Date: Aug 2008
Programs: HHonors Gold, Marriott Lifetime Gold, IHG Gold, OZ*G, AA Gold, AS MVP
Posts: 1,874
The problem with local SIM is that you first have to be there once to get the SIM, so next time you can do the swap on the plane. And if you are traveling through Europe, getting local SIMsssssssss can really be a challenge.
Also, if you use iPhones, swapping SIM cards can cause some technical issues on iMessage and so.
That's why I have a China Unicom iPhone for China, a 3HK HTC for HK, and a AT&T HTC for USA. I also have a AT&T hotspot, and I always activate the $120 for 800MB before any week long vacation. That will survive the internet surfing of me and my wife for about 10 days.
Also, if you use iPhones, swapping SIM cards can cause some technical issues on iMessage and so.
That's why I have a China Unicom iPhone for China, a 3HK HTC for HK, and a AT&T HTC for USA. I also have a AT&T hotspot, and I always activate the $120 for 800MB before any week long vacation. That will survive the internet surfing of me and my wife for about 10 days.
Even Discover isn't the sole issuer of cards on its network in the US (WalMart credit cards are on the Discover network, for instance), to say nothing of UnionPay/JCB/Diners Club cards on their network in the US and vice-versa making end-to-end control more complex.
Jul 25, 2014, 5:29 am
#863
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Irvine CA & PEK
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Qantas Platinum, United S
Posts: 664
I'm pretty sure someone will think I'm silly for juggling all the SIMs I do. 3HK card for HK/mainland internet (HK$98/day for unlimited unfiltered internet on the mainland!), T-Mobile for US and some overseas voice/data ($50/500MB is a bit more affordable than $120/800), SoftBank for voice in Japan, China Unicom HK card for HK/Mainland/Taiwan voice/internet, Wind for most US/Canada data, and Virgin Mobile for voice and backup data in Canada, and China Mobile for mainland voice and for cheap full-speed data roaming in places like South Korea. I've got half of Asia and North America covered.
Your arsenal intrigues me so much that I really have some questions~
1) Why you have both China Unicom and China Mobile? What is China Unicom HK?
2) I don't know China Mobile has super cheap data roaming in South Korea. How much is it? I think China Unicom has 200 CNY for 200MB data monthly package.
Using China's SIM cards for data can create all sorts of problems. I guess if you have a phone from China now, just try Google "USD to CNY" and tell me whether you are taken to Google or blocked...
Jul 25, 2014, 5:34 am
#864
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Irvine CA & PEK
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Qantas Platinum, United S
Posts: 664
It is totally technologically feasible. I believe terminals all have their home currency information, that is why transactions in some countries tend to raise security flags. If Visa/MC detects transactions in the currencies that are not the local ones, they deny those.
Consumer opt-in is just like DCC, it's a feature, it's not mandatory. If DCC is legal, then this is too.
If Visa/MC don't bother to do this, we can always deface the receipt and do chargebacks.
So, it is not the end of the world at all guys!
Jul 25, 2014, 9:03 am
#865
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,537
Starting next December, you'll only need one SIM for all of Europe
Jul 25, 2014, 10:20 am
#866
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Anywhere I need to be.
Programs: OW Emerald, *A Gold, NEXUS, GE, ABTC/APEC, South Korea SES, eIACS, PP, Hyatt Diamond
Posts: 16,046
It's the consumer's fault. The problem is that DCC is forced upon even those of us who don't want the service. I think one of the reasons you don't see DCC on AmEx or Discover is that unlike Visa/MC there aren't many third party issuers. I know that Citi and Fidelity have some AmEx branded cards but most AmEx cards are issued by AmEx themselves. I think all Discover cards are issued by Discover, but I could be mistaken. That gives them more control over the end-to-end process and less likely to allow DCC on their networks.
Jul 25, 2014, 10:32 am
#867
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,066
Yep, but these are the exceptions more than the rule. I would say AmEx and Discover have a lot more tightly controlled network end-to-end than Visa and MC. If AmEx doesn't want to allow DCC for instance, it's more easily enforceable.
Jul 25, 2014, 10:49 am
#868
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 42,048
Amex and discover don't support dcc in the first place so your speculations about control of the networks seem to be moot.
Jul 25, 2014, 10:59 am
#869
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Canada
Programs: BA Gold (OWE), Star Alliance Gold, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 2,194
The main reason there is no DCC on American Express transactions is because American Express is usually the acquirer (for its own transactions only obviously) and the network. It would make no sense to have DCC as American Express makes the foreign transaction fee (off the issuer if not an Amex issued card and usually off the customer if it is an Amex card). American Express would be competing with themselves!
Jul 25, 2014, 11:21 am
#870
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,762
Citibank offers an Amex card on AA. It charges the usual citibank 3% ftf (most use the AA mastercard I think). BA has an Amex card, at least one. Pen Fed has an Amex card, at least one.
Now the question of acquirer. Long long ago, once upon a time, merchants signed up with banks to accept whatever cc the bank accepted, then signed up with Amex to accept Amex cards, then signed up with Diners to accept DC until it was purchased by Citibank, then signed up with Discover when it came out.
But then as time marched forward, you signed up with a credit card processor to the point and I just use it as an example people signed up say with square.com and you could take all of them. In a few cases, there might be a slight difference in the discount rate if you took Amex. So when I take a credit card via my square account, for the 3 or 4 transacton I might do a year with or without a surcharge
... is square the acquirer? How many merchants, all kidding aside, have signed up with whatever company pushing dcc. Since it's all automatic today I assume that what happens in an Amex transaction the pos terminal will not flash a choice to be made of currency whereas with visa/mc it will.
I know the response is a bit convoluted to say the least but I guess it's not as simple as we would like to believe it is.
Now the question of acquirer. Long long ago, once upon a time, merchants signed up with banks to accept whatever cc the bank accepted, then signed up with Amex to accept Amex cards, then signed up with Diners to accept DC until it was purchased by Citibank, then signed up with Discover when it came out.
But then as time marched forward, you signed up with a credit card processor to the point and I just use it as an example people signed up say with square.com and you could take all of them. In a few cases, there might be a slight difference in the discount rate if you took Amex. So when I take a credit card via my square account, for the 3 or 4 transacton I might do a year with or without a surcharge
... is square the acquirer? How many merchants, all kidding aside, have signed up with whatever company pushing dcc. Since it's all automatic today I assume that what happens in an Amex transaction the pos terminal will not flash a choice to be made of currency whereas with visa/mc it will.I know the response is a bit convoluted to say the least but I guess it's not as simple as we would like to believe it is.