Mar 11, 2020, 10:13 am
Last edit by: Ocn Vw 1K
In order to reduce noise in the Coronavirus / Covid-19 : general fact-based reporting thread, and to create a central place to invite any member to ask a basic question about the impact of COVID-19 on travel, your moderators have decided to open this separate "lounge" thread for related discussion that isn't strictly fact-based reporting.
Any member who can provide a constructive, helpful answer to a question; or post constructively in reply to a member's point-of-view, is welcome to post.
All FT rules apply, including avoiding personalized, snarky, political, other off-topic, commercial, and repeatedly disruptive content.
Discussion of general economic impacts of Covid-19 belongs in the OMNI forum, not here.
Discussion and critique of political/government actions to aid the economy or which is far more political than related to COVID-19 is for the OMNI/PR forum, not here.
This is a protocol for posting adopted by the forum Moderator team:Please follow this protocol, based on FlyerTalk Rules and long-standing FlyerTalk best practices. Doing so will help keep the thread open, and allow our moderator team to aid members, rather than having to resort to discipline.
•Constructive, respectful posts, views, opinions, questions, and replies, related to the topic are welcome. Avoid commenting on members personally, or posting off-topic or political messages.
•While respectful disagreement of a posted view is allowed, don’t call-out posters to prove their points. FlyerTalk has never required discussion standards at the level of a Ph.D. dissertation defense, or a trial court witness cross-examination.
•After a reasonable exchange of views on a point, please yield the floor so that others may bring up different topics, questions or points.
•Especially important in this time of pandemic, when normal life and travel have been upended: please take regular breaks from the thread.
Please stay healthy,
your FT Coronavirus and Travel Moderator Team.
Any member who can provide a constructive, helpful answer to a question; or post constructively in reply to a member's point-of-view, is welcome to post.
All FT rules apply, including avoiding personalized, snarky, political, other off-topic, commercial, and repeatedly disruptive content.
Discussion of general economic impacts of Covid-19 belongs in the OMNI forum, not here.
Discussion and critique of political/government actions to aid the economy or which is far more political than related to COVID-19 is for the OMNI/PR forum, not here.
This is a protocol for posting adopted by the forum Moderator team:Please follow this protocol, based on FlyerTalk Rules and long-standing FlyerTalk best practices. Doing so will help keep the thread open, and allow our moderator team to aid members, rather than having to resort to discipline.
•Constructive, respectful posts, views, opinions, questions, and replies, related to the topic are welcome. Avoid commenting on members personally, or posting off-topic or political messages.
•While respectful disagreement of a posted view is allowed, don’t call-out posters to prove their points. FlyerTalk has never required discussion standards at the level of a Ph.D. dissertation defense, or a trial court witness cross-examination.
•After a reasonable exchange of views on a point, please yield the floor so that others may bring up different topics, questions or points.
•Especially important in this time of pandemic, when normal life and travel have been upended: please take regular breaks from the thread.
Please stay healthy,
your FT Coronavirus and Travel Moderator Team.
COVID-19: Lounge thread for thoughts, concerns and questions
Mar 18, 2020, 4:33 am
#811
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 676
I think SARS ended because the weather was warming up. Of course, HK has a lot of social distancing back then also
Thankfully the governments around the world have decided to take matters into their hands and not leave it to [[i]Moderator edit: to those who hold the views quoted]. I can't think of a single government that is saying the economic cost of shutting down is out-weighing the potential of a total collapse in health care system. Can you?
I am with you on this one. Light cases should be isolating and staying at home since hospitals will be overwhelmed. Wuhan was like this as well
Peaking is very different from out of this. And plot the curve that Italy, France and Spain is on for 45 days and how many infections would that be for the US?
It is one sentence. How can you misinterpret it? Go back and read it again.
Actually the post I quoted had pretty bad grammar, so I will rewrite here. Should infected people be treated by the healthcare system? The answer is no. The should only be treated by the healthcare system if they have severe symptoms that they cannot survive on their own. Many infected have only slight symptoms and can just wait it out at home.
Actually the post I quoted had pretty bad grammar, so I will rewrite here. Should infected people be treated by the healthcare system? The answer is no. The should only be treated by the healthcare system if they have severe symptoms that they cannot survive on their own. Many infected have only slight symptoms and can just wait it out at home.
Peaking is very different from out of this. And plot the curve that Italy, France and Spain is on for 45 days and how many infections would that be for the US?
Last edited by Ocn Vw 1K; Mar 18, 2020 at 8:35 am Reason: Combine 4 consecutive posts of same member; suggest using Multi-quote feature.
Mar 18, 2020, 4:39 am
#812
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 19,807
What about food workers?
https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/east-...s-food-workers
https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/east-...s-food-workers
Please don't put words into my mouth. I have not asserted that it is a meaningful transmission vector. Rather, in addition to discussions around food containers, everyone should note that food workers can also be a means of transmission as has happened in closed quarters on a cruise ship.
The ship will have very limited cleaning between meals. Staff have to live in close proximity both on-duty and off.
Mar 18, 2020, 4:44 am
#813
Ambassador: China
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Malibu Inferno Ground Zero
Programs: UA AA CO
Posts: 4,836
Probably the most safe food to eat is hot pot. You are essentially, before your own eyes, sterilizing whatever is going in your mouth. Plus its tasty.
side note
I think US should mandate at minimum surgical masks in public. Take note from China they had outbreaks in 03 and 09..
Masks eliminate hand ..mouth..nose..transfer. Also promotes better compliance of social distancing.
Last edited by anacapamalibu; Mar 18, 2020 at 4:52 am
Mar 18, 2020, 5:00 am
#814
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2014
Programs: Top Tier with all 3 alliances
Posts: 11,672
"'Every Day You Lose, the Contagion Gets Worse.' Lessons from Italy's Hospital Meltdown. "
"He estimated that around 60% or more of the population of Bergamo has the coronavirus. “There is an enormous number of asymptomatic people, as well as unknown dead who die in their home and are not tested, not counted,” he said. “The ICU is the tip of an iceberg.”"
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...?ocid=primedhp
This is what's coming very fast, unless we get vey serious about social distancing and other measures immediately. We need strong leadership and decisiveness about this, across the country, and consistency, and not wavering….We are behind Italy about a week or two, but in my estimates we will need at least another week here in the US to just get our act together...very slow progress every day.
"He estimated that around 60% or more of the population of Bergamo has the coronavirus. “There is an enormous number of asymptomatic people, as well as unknown dead who die in their home and are not tested, not counted,” he said. “The ICU is the tip of an iceberg.”"
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...?ocid=primedhp
This is what's coming very fast, unless we get vey serious about social distancing and other measures immediately. We need strong leadership and decisiveness about this, across the country, and consistency, and not wavering….We are behind Italy about a week or two, but in my estimates we will need at least another week here in the US to just get our act together...very slow progress every day.
Mar 18, 2020, 5:02 am
#815
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: RNO
Programs: AA/DL/UA
Posts: 10,780
Thankfully the governments around the world have decided to take matters into their hands and not leave it to individuals like you. I can't think of a single government that is saying the economic cost of shutting down is out-weighing the potential of a total collapse in health care system. Can you?
But if we continue down this path of economic suicide, the vast majority of the population will be broke. The ripple effect of no employment for people who work for airlines, hotels, casinos, bars and restaurants is massive. No one will be spared.
Do you want to see a hospital turn away patients who want gastric bypass surgery or breast implants etc., or do you want to see a nation in which the only people who have any money are the rich? Talk about income inequality.... when the only people with money are people who already had lots of money (and lose a few million in investments, big deal, they'll live)... absolutely horrific.
Mar 18, 2020, 5:07 am
#816
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: SIN
Programs: EK Blue, EY Guest, AA, QR
Posts: 288
Is Italys lowest increase a function of testing not increasing? If less new people are tested, that may not be good news
Korea and Singapore and Hong Kong all stopped it by strongly quarantining patients and their contacts early on, and not by shutting down everything
Mar 18, 2020, 5:11 am
#817
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 676
I don't think it is a good analogy either and that's why I put closed quarters on a cruise ship. Having said that, it is a possibility and while low likelihood, still something to think about
Mar 18, 2020, 5:21 am
#818
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: SIN
Programs: EK Blue, EY Guest, AA, QR
Posts: 288
What is "total collapse" of health care? Everyone walks off the job? Get real, worst case scenario is hospitals fill up and only emergency patients are admitted. The vast majority of the population is not going to be waiting in line outside the hospital.
Talk about income inequality.... when the only people with money are people who already had lots of money (and lose a few million in investments, big deal, they'll live)... absolutely horrific.
Talk about income inequality.... when the only people with money are people who already had lots of money (and lose a few million in investments, big deal, they'll live)... absolutely horrific.
But at least the skies will be clear and less polluted.
I am already seeing loads of comments on social media on how nice the skies look now in China, Europe and so on and how this should become the new normal.
Mar 18, 2020, 5:24 am
#819
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
I wouldn't jump to any conclusions about this virus going away and where and what further disruptions will or won't be caused by it in places like China and South Korea. The effectiveness (or lack thereof) of measures taken there when it comes to this virus will become a lot clearer after 8-11 months from now.
Mar 18, 2020, 5:55 am
#820
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Haze gray and underway
Programs: UA 1K 2MM, HH Diamond, Marriott 'clink clink' Titanium
Posts: 1,784
Well yeah.
UK health experts say that global lockdowns (social distancing, curfews, travel bans) could last for the next 12-18 months. It's been all over the news in Europe today.
And again, try to fathom: No more flying for at least 1 year, not even some domestic traveling (some German states have already begun to prohibit hotel stays for tourists, regardless of nationality.
UK health experts say that global lockdowns (social distancing, curfews, travel bans) could last for the next 12-18 months. It's been all over the news in Europe today.
And again, try to fathom: No more flying for at least 1 year, not even some domestic traveling (some German states have already begun to prohibit hotel stays for tourists, regardless of nationality.
Financially a lock down will kill the market and with the market gos most people’s retirement. Personally work or no work retirement funds or no retirement funds I’m comfortable And will survive. But if it becomes NOT please religiously observe social distancing around me as I can be a truly grumpy b$@“¥]}!
Mar 18, 2020, 6:02 am
#821
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 41
Hey everyone. So, this is going to sound extremely naive, and for reference, I am in New Zealand, one of the last countries to feel the full effects of it. But I really want some input here, I know I'm wrong, I just want to be told why I'm wrong.
From my perspective, I look at China, and they now have less than 20 cases a day. Their life is returning to normal. Schools are even reopening: https://www.inkstonenews.com/society...rticle/3075518
They locked down cities for 2 months, and it looks like the virus went away. Even in Italy, they had their lowest percentage increase today. South Korea massively stopped it. Singapore massively stopped it.
It seems that if cities/countries lock down temporarily, that is essentially kills the virus. Isn't that the solution? If we all did that: wouldn't the world be back to normal in 2-3 months?
From my perspective, I look at China, and they now have less than 20 cases a day. Their life is returning to normal. Schools are even reopening: https://www.inkstonenews.com/society...rticle/3075518
They locked down cities for 2 months, and it looks like the virus went away. Even in Italy, they had their lowest percentage increase today. South Korea massively stopped it. Singapore massively stopped it.
It seems that if cities/countries lock down temporarily, that is essentially kills the virus. Isn't that the solution? If we all did that: wouldn't the world be back to normal in 2-3 months?
I'm afraid but no. Once you flattened the curve, it's good for your healthcare system. However, travel bans have to stay in place until a vaccine is found, so plan the next 12-18 months.
Mar 18, 2020, 6:04 am
#822
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berlin
Posts: 1,765
What is "total collapse" of health care? Everyone walks off the job? Get real, worst case scenario is hospitals fill up and only emergency patients are admitted. The vast majority of the population is not going to be waiting in line outside the hospital.
But if we continue down this path of economic suicide, the vast majority of the population will be broke. The ripple effect of no employment for people who work for airlines, hotels, casinos, bars and restaurants is massive. No one will be spared.
Do you want to see a hospital turn away patients who want gastric bypass surgery or breast implants etc., or do you want to see a nation in which the only people who have any money are the rich? Talk about income inequality.... when the only people with money are people who already had lots of money (and lose a few million in investments, big deal, they'll live)... absolutely horrific.
But if we continue down this path of economic suicide, the vast majority of the population will be broke. The ripple effect of no employment for people who work for airlines, hotels, casinos, bars and restaurants is massive. No one will be spared.
Do you want to see a hospital turn away patients who want gastric bypass surgery or breast implants etc., or do you want to see a nation in which the only people who have any money are the rich? Talk about income inequality.... when the only people with money are people who already had lots of money (and lose a few million in investments, big deal, they'll live)... absolutely horrific.
Last edited by Ocn Vw 1K; Mar 18, 2020 at 8:39 am Reason: Per FT Rule 12 that we discuss the topic and not other members in a personal way.
Mar 18, 2020, 6:25 am
#823
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
Conditioning a travel ban elimination on a vaccine being available and effective for this virus is perhaps expecting and demanding too much. There are various viruses that the world will just end up having to live with for a very long time without an available and effective vaccine. This may or may not end up being one of those viruses. Either way, slowing the spread requires extraordinary measures; but not all the extraordinary measures are permanently sustainable for a very long period of time.
Mar 18, 2020, 6:25 am
#824
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Haze gray and underway
Programs: UA 1K 2MM, HH Diamond, Marriott 'clink clink' Titanium
Posts: 1,784
Food for thought. A majority (almost all) of the people who were tested for the ‘FLU’ were already showing symptoms. A majority of the people who test positive for Covid-19 don’t show any symptoms and those who do show symptoms continue to show positive for weeks after no longer showing symptoms.
Not everyone who is exposed to either illness get sick and those that do most only require normal levels of treatment.
Covid-19 is serious but let’s not overreact.
Not everyone who is exposed to either illness get sick and those that do most only require normal levels of treatment.
Covid-19 is serious but let’s not overreact.
Last edited by Dublin_rfk; Mar 18, 2020 at 6:30 am
Mar 18, 2020, 6:27 am
#825
Join Date: May 2010
Location: AVP & PEK
Programs: UA 1K 1.9MM
Posts: 6,362
https://www.foxnews.com/media/mike-p...housands-tests