MOBILE Flight Deck Secondary Barrier Galley Cart System
#91
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Frensham, Lincolnshire
Programs: RFC
Posts: 5,099
There are already guns in some cockpits. I already stated that the cockpit door could not be opened so some locking system would be ok by me, perhaps controlled by the transponder code. I see the job of the pilots of getting the plane on the ground at the first suitable runway as their only responsibility and being enabled to take any action needed towards that end.
Have a switch in the cockpit that electrifies the cockpit door.
That'll keep Evil Doers (tm) out!!
Ghods, I'm brilliant!
#92
Moderator: Travel Safety/Security, Travel Tools, California, Los Angeles; FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: LAX
Programs: oneword Emerald
Posts: 20,653
Moderator's Note:
Folks,
Please keep in mind this forum's guidelines when posting here.
You can read those in the sticky thread Please Read: Important Information.
Gross derisive generalizations of federal air marshals, TSA screeners, police and military personnel will not be tolerated.
Posts have been deleted.
Repeat offenders will earn time outs from their posting privileges.
Please consider this to be your one and only warning.
TWA884
Travel Safety/Security co-moderator
Please keep in mind this forum's guidelines when posting here.
You can read those in the sticky thread Please Read: Important Information.
Gross derisive generalizations of federal air marshals, TSA screeners, police and military personnel will not be tolerated.
Posts have been deleted.
Repeat offenders will earn time outs from their posting privileges.
Please consider this to be your one and only warning.
TWA884
Travel Safety/Security co-moderator
#93
Join Date: May 2013
Location: New York
Programs: UA Silver, Marriott LTPP, Hertz Five Star
Posts: 1,079
I'm a bit confused what your last 2 postings have to do with cockpit barriers
First post suggests that FAM's, like the rest of TSA, are just an act in TSA's security theater and I would agree with that position.
Not sure what the second post has to do with anything. I don't believe for a moment that there are not substance abuse programs available for government employees but suspect having to come clean with superiors about a problem is the real issue for those not seeking professional help.
Can you help me understand where you are going with this line of thought?
First post suggests that FAM's, like the rest of TSA, are just an act in TSA's security theater and I would agree with that position.
Not sure what the second post has to do with anything. I don't believe for a moment that there are not substance abuse programs available for government employees but suspect having to come clean with superiors about a problem is the real issue for those not seeking professional help.
Can you help me understand where you are going with this line of thought?
The second post is just that air marshalls are tired and prone to drug/alcohol abuse, which could make them more of a danger and an active threat to pax (which is I guess why he excerpted about the part where an air marshall hallucinated and started firing at people that weren't actually there).
In related news (to secondary barriers...)
The house passed a bill that requires new planes to ship to US airlines with Secondary Barriers at the end of April. Of course, whether or not it passes in the senate with that language and whether or not the bill will be approved/vetoed by the president is a whole 'nother set of potential obstacles, and even if it did it wouldn't require secondary barrier installation on existing aircraft.
I personally see the retrofit and having to hook up some crazy barrier system consistently to multiple mount points that need to be added to an existing aircraft AND strong enough to survive both repeated use and an adult throwing their weight at it as impractical and of minimal benefit over the existing cart solution. I'm not really opposed to a requirement to put it in new aircraft because if the aircraft is designed with a secondary barrier option in mind it's going to be easier/quicker to deploy and likely much more robust than any retrofit solution.
#94
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Between AUS, EWR, and YTO In a little twisty maze of airline seats, all alike.. but I wanna go home with the armadillo
Programs: CO, NW, & UA forum moderator emeritus
Posts: 35,432
The drink carts work fine. This bill is a solution in search of a problem. But if we really want a better way t do it a brick wall would be an easier and more permanent solution.
#95
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Leesburg, Virginia
Programs: http://www.maclean-scotus.info
Posts: 132
U.S. Office of Special Counsel refers another cockpit secondary barrier disclosure
The last one was issued on January 18, 2018 regarding a 9/11-style “jammed” into unlocked cockpit attack due to the lack of cockpit Installed Physical Secondary Barriers (IPSB) to protect pilots after unlocking cockpit doors to sleep, eat, or use the lavatory:
https://www.whistleblower.org/press/office-special-counsel-backs-whistleblower-further-aviation-security-breakdowns
Last week’s citing a potential plot using a synthetic opioid such as fentanyl or carfentanil, and the unwritten rule banning surprise law enforcement "open and look" checks into trucks —entering the airport operatations areas—with cargo bays containing religious flight meals:
https://www.whistleblower.org/press/whistleblower-agency-orders-new-investigations-aviation-security-breakdowns-exposed-air
https://www.whistleblower.org/press/office-special-counsel-backs-whistleblower-further-aviation-security-breakdowns
Last week’s citing a potential plot using a synthetic opioid such as fentanyl or carfentanil, and the unwritten rule banning surprise law enforcement "open and look" checks into trucks —entering the airport operatations areas—with cargo bays containing religious flight meals:
https://www.whistleblower.org/press/whistleblower-agency-orders-new-investigations-aviation-security-breakdowns-exposed-air
Last edited by MacLeanBarrier; Dec 25, 2018 at 2:35 pm
#96
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Frensham, Lincolnshire
Programs: RFC
Posts: 5,099
The last one was issued on January 18, 2018 regarding a 9/11-style “jammed” into unlocked cockpit attack:
https://www.whistleblower.org/press/office-special-counsel-backs-whistleblower-further-aviation-security-breakdowns
Last week’s citing a potential plot using a synthetic opioid such as fentanyl or carfentanil:
https://www.whistleblower.org/press/whistleblower-agency-orders-new-investigations-aviation-security-breakdowns-exposed-air
https://www.whistleblower.org/press/office-special-counsel-backs-whistleblower-further-aviation-security-breakdowns
Last week’s citing a potential plot using a synthetic opioid such as fentanyl or carfentanil:
https://www.whistleblower.org/press/whistleblower-agency-orders-new-investigations-aviation-security-breakdowns-exposed-air
And your actual documented risk analysis is..... where? What's the reliability score of the threat?
Just how easy (You are quoted as claiming it is easy in the documents) to obtain carfentanil in aerosol form? Given the unregulated nature of it in most countries and the supposed risk, why haven't we seen it used at any time in the last 20+ years?
I will admit: you're good at finding solutions in search of problems.
#97
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Leesburg, Virginia
Programs: http://www.maclean-scotus.info
Posts: 132
Last edited by TWA884; Dec 25, 2018 at 10:20 am Reason: FT Rule 7 - Please provide the headline of the new item along with the link
#98
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Baltimore, MD USA
Programs: Southwest Rapid Rewards. Tha... that's about it.
Posts: 4,332
That was a case of the Russian government using carfentanyl as a chemical weapon against terrorists - irresponsibly killing 120 of the people they were supposedly trying to rescue.
Are there any other cases in history where aerosolized carfentanyl has been used as a weapon? Is there a case where an unauthorized person or group has used aerosolized carfentanyl as a weapon? Like, ever? Or is this another one of those wild theoretical attack vectors that people have seen in movies and are utterly convinced are imminent and inevitable? Like suitcase nukes and binary liquid explosives and electromagnetic railguns with x-ray scopes...
Last edited by TWA884; Dec 25, 2018 at 10:21 am Reason: Conform to moderator's edit of quoted post
#99
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Leesburg, Virginia
Programs: http://www.maclean-scotus.info
Posts: 132
[ . . . ]
“As a tool of terror, the drug would work best in a closed space, said Daniel Gerstein, a senior policy researcher at Rand Corp. who served as acting undersecretary in the Department of Homeland Security’s Science and Technology Directorate in the Obama administration.”
https://www.bloombergquint.com/busin...ss-destruction
#100
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: DFW
Posts: 28,129
Would a person exposed to one of these agents have the awareness to administer the antidote to themselves before becoming nonfunctional? What's your plan for the other 200 or so people on the plane?
Perhaps there is a case for remotely piloted commercial aircraft!
Perhaps there is a case for remotely piloted commercial aircraft!
#101
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,526
Um... that's not exactly what you're warning against.
That was a case of the Russian government using carfentanyl as a chemical weapon against terrorists - irresponsibly killing 120 of the people they were supposedly trying to rescue.
Are there any other cases in history where aerosolized carfentanyl has been used as a weapon? Is there a case where an unauthorized person or group has used aerosolized carfentanyl as a weapon? Like, ever? Or is this another one of those wild theoretical attack vectors that people have seen in movies and are utterly convinced are imminent and inevitable? Like suitcase nukes and binary liquid explosives and electromagnetic railguns with x-ray scopes...
That was a case of the Russian government using carfentanyl as a chemical weapon against terrorists - irresponsibly killing 120 of the people they were supposedly trying to rescue.
Are there any other cases in history where aerosolized carfentanyl has been used as a weapon? Is there a case where an unauthorized person or group has used aerosolized carfentanyl as a weapon? Like, ever? Or is this another one of those wild theoretical attack vectors that people have seen in movies and are utterly convinced are imminent and inevitable? Like suitcase nukes and binary liquid explosives and electromagnetic railguns with x-ray scopes...
#102
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,526
“The fatal potential of even glancing contact with fentanyl is a major reason why national security experts are becoming alarmed at the prospect of it being used to sow terror. The drug is ‘a significant threat to national security,’ Michael Morell, the former acting director of the Central Intelligence Agency under President Barack Obama, wrote last year. ‘It is a weapon of mass destruction.’
[ . . . ]
“As a tool of terror, the drug would work best in a closed space, said Daniel Gerstein, a senior policy researcher at Rand Corp. who served as acting undersecretary in the Department of Homeland Security’s Science and Technology Directorate in the Obama administration.”
https://www.bloombergquint.com/busin...ss-destruction
[ . . . ]
“As a tool of terror, the drug would work best in a closed space, said Daniel Gerstein, a senior policy researcher at Rand Corp. who served as acting undersecretary in the Department of Homeland Security’s Science and Technology Directorate in the Obama administration.”
https://www.bloombergquint.com/busin...ss-destruction
#103
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Baltimore, MD USA
Programs: Southwest Rapid Rewards. Tha... that's about it.
Posts: 4,332
“The fatal potential of even glancing contact with fentanyl is a major reason why national security experts are becoming alarmed at the prospect of it being used to sow terror. The drug is ‘a significant threat to national security,’ Michael Morell, the former acting director of the Central Intelligence Agency under President Barack Obama, wrote last year. ‘It is a weapon of mass destruction.’
[ . . . ]
“As a tool of terror, the drug would work best in a closed space, said Daniel Gerstein, a senior policy researcher at Rand Corp. who served as acting undersecretary in the Department of Homeland Security’s Science and Technology Directorate in the Obama administration.”
https://www.bloombergquint.com/busin...ss-destruction
[ . . . ]
“As a tool of terror, the drug would work best in a closed space, said Daniel Gerstein, a senior policy researcher at Rand Corp. who served as acting undersecretary in the Department of Homeland Security’s Science and Technology Directorate in the Obama administration.”
https://www.bloombergquint.com/busin...ss-destruction
To me this is another one of those theoretical threat vectors that, while it may indeed be possible, is unlikely enough that spending millions of dollars developing a defense against it is not only a tremendous waste, but a dangerous distraction that draws resources and attention away from much-needed defenses against far more likely threat vectors.
#104
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Leesburg, Virginia
Programs: http://www.maclean-scotus.info
Posts: 132
Deploy Installed Physical Secondary Barriers (IPSB) that enclose the forward galley. Just reinforcing the cockpit doors was a sloppy fix.
Equip the cockpits and aircraft medical kits with NARCAN doses in the case some synthetic opioid leaks past the solid IPSB.
Please open the 9/11 Commission report and Control+F "cockpit," "door," and "jammed themselves into" — the hijackers simply "jammed themselves into" the cockpits when the pilots unlocked them within 30 minutes after take-off.
The movie "United 93" also hints this after minute 46 into it.
In July 2003, the plot was the same: wait for the post-April 4, 2003 "reinforced" cockpit doors to open—
"either shortly after takeoff or shortly before landing"
TSA withheld this intelligence from Freedom Of Information Act requests for six years:
2006 and 2009 FOIA responses to July 26, 2003 hijacking plot warning
TSA withheld this intelligence from Freedom Of Information Act requests for six years:
2006 and 2009 FOIA responses to July 26, 2003 hijacking plot warning
Last edited by MacLeanBarrier; Dec 25, 2018 at 10:37 am
#105
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: DFW
Posts: 28,129
The odds of FAM's being on any given flight are slim. What then if this imaginary threat happened? And echoing, what about the passengers?
What concerns me more is the lack of screening of certain food trucks delivering meals to aircraft. That is unacceptable.
What concerns me more is the lack of screening of certain food trucks delivering meals to aircraft. That is unacceptable.