Flyer “Processed” (Arrested?) in NM After Declining to Show ID
Nov 20, 2009, 2:03 pm
#361
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Munich, Germany
Programs: Miles&More Blue, SPG Silver
Posts: 3,379
Do not confuse the topic of travel within a country with traveling between two different countries.
Continental was doing nothing wrong. They only accept passports with including visas as valid documentation and clearly say so. To travel abroad without a passport to prove your citizenship is negligent.
Last edited by flyingfkb; Nov 20, 2009 at 2:10 pm
Nov 20, 2009, 2:12 pm
#362
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: LHR/SEA/YVR
Programs: BAEC G/*O E
Posts: 921
Point I was making is that law doesn't stipulate you MUST present your ID to TSA staff. Accordingly law which doesn't exist cannot be enforced.
If you are challenged by TSA employee or a stranger it is up to you whether you wish to show them your ID. Failure to do so cannot and should not lead to any legal action (and taking into custody is most definitey a legal action).
If you are challenged by TSA employee or a stranger it is up to you whether you wish to show them your ID. Failure to do so cannot and should not lead to any legal action (and taking into custody is most definitey a legal action).
Nov 20, 2009, 3:59 pm
#363
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Boulder, CO
Programs: UA, AA, WN; HH, MR, IHG
Posts: 7,054
Has seeing 1/2 million people die every year in auto accidents changed your mind about driving? Has seeing 2 million die every year of heart disease changed your mind about fast food? Have millions of AIDS deaths changed your mind about sex? If not, then why can't you tolerate a few dozen deaths in exchange for your freedom?
Whether someone dies as a result of a hijacking is entirely out of their control. The only way to avoid such a death is either not to fly, or to prevent hijackings. The former is not an acceptable solution.
Note that I am not stating that I agree with the TSA, its practices, or the concept that ID checks equal security. Relying on falsifiable documents with no cross-checks as a means of "security" is laughable, at best. (It is immaterial whether the documents are "hard" to falsify; if they are falsifiable at all, they are useless for real security.)
The reason terrorist acts inspire terror is exactly because of that loss of control; most people like to think they are largely in control of the consequences that befall them, and when that proves to be untrue (as in the case of being unable to walk to your local grocery, or get on an airplane, without fear of death), they get understandably frightened. While heart disease, car accidents, STDs, drug overdoses, and many other things may kill vastly more people per year than does terrorism, the former are all (almost entirely) controllable by the people who suffer those deaths; the latter is not, which is why your analogies are really not applicable.
Nov 20, 2009, 8:34 pm
#364
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: KAUS
Programs: UA MM
Posts: 1,118
Nov 21, 2009, 3:36 pm
#365
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Hopefully on a plane...
Posts: 6,580
I was randomly browsing the Burbank Airport website when I came across this notice:
In that it links to a TSA Press Release...
http://www.tsa.gov/press/happenings/...uirements.shtm
TSA I.D. Requirements Now in Effect at Checkpoint
As of June 21, 2008, the Transportation Security Administration will deny access to the secure area of airports to passengers who willfully refuse to provide identification at the security checkpoint.
Click here for more information
Click here for more information on acceptable forms of identification at TSA.gov
As of June 21, 2008, the Transportation Security Administration will deny access to the secure area of airports to passengers who willfully refuse to provide identification at the security checkpoint.
Click here for more information
Click here for more information on acceptable forms of identification at TSA.gov
http://www.tsa.gov/press/happenings/...uirements.shtm
Nov 21, 2009, 5:59 pm
#366
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 364
It is interesting to note they used the term "passenger".
So by their own release, if I am NOT a passenger, than I am exempt from their nonsense ID check?
We all know that many have access to the sterile area with no checks of any kind.
I say if you are going to play with big boys, you had better have everything carefully worded and double checked by some legal guy. It wouldn't be the first time that a carelessly worded document got someone into trouble.
I would expect more from a US Government agency.
So by their own release, if I am NOT a passenger, than I am exempt from their nonsense ID check?
We all know that many have access to the sterile area with no checks of any kind.
I say if you are going to play with big boys, you had better have everything carefully worded and double checked by some legal guy. It wouldn't be the first time that a carelessly worded document got someone into trouble.
I would expect more from a US Government agency.
Nov 21, 2009, 8:02 pm
#367
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,657
Yes, I teach mathematical logic, why do you ask?
Nov 21, 2009, 9:41 pm
#368
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: BWI
Programs: AA Gold, HH Diamond, National Emerald Executive, TSA Disparager Gold
Posts: 15,180
It is interesting to note they used the term "passenger".
So by their own release, if I am NOT a passenger, than I am exempt from their nonsense ID check?
We all know that many have access to the sterile area with no checks of any kind.
I say if you are going to play with big boys, you had better have everything carefully worded and double checked by some legal guy. It wouldn't be the first time that a carelessly worded document got someone into trouble.
I would expect more from a US Government agency.
So by their own release, if I am NOT a passenger, than I am exempt from their nonsense ID check?
We all know that many have access to the sterile area with no checks of any kind.
I say if you are going to play with big boys, you had better have everything carefully worded and double checked by some legal guy. It wouldn't be the first time that a carelessly worded document got someone into trouble.
I would expect more from a US Government agency.
Nov 22, 2009, 3:10 am
#369
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Seat 2A
Programs: AA EXP LT GLD 1MM, BA GLD, NH/UA*G, Hyatt Dia, Marr Tit LT PLT, IHG Spire,HH Dia, MGM NOIR,Hertz PC
Posts: 10,571
As of June 21, 2008, the Transportation Security Administration will deny access to the secure area of airports to passengers who willfully refuse to provide identification at the security checkpoint.
I would interpret it that if someone states he forgot his ID at home or whatever else plausible excuse the he can enter the sterile area after additional security measurements aka secondary screening. If they then find the ID in your pocket you might be in trouble, how far I cant tell... depends on what power TSA has in this case to involve a LEO in case that it violates any law (which I doubt).
Nov 22, 2009, 6:06 am
#370
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,726
Sign Of The Times
I don’t have a shred of sympathy for the position that we’re all being too paranoid when we imply that the U.S. is heading in the direction of Nazi Germany or Oceania.
I just dropped my wife off at the airport this morning. We walked into an almost empty airport, walked directly up to the ticket counter, checked her bag, and then proceeded up the escalator toward the gates. There, in what might have otherwise been a nearly vacant terminal, was a long zigzag line of people winding back and forth as people patiently waited their turn to get through the security screening. Under the watchful eye of the TSA, you don’t dare tell a joke or make any disparaging remarks about how slow and inefficient they are. You stand there, making the effort to look carefree, nonthreatening, and most of all, respectful. You sense that you are trying to pass a test based entirely on the subtleties of your behavior. Your entire day, if not your entire trip depends on whether just one of these “screeners” singles you out for special treatment. After you’re through, you breath a sigh of relief. You’ve made it past the one hurdle of your expedition ruled entirely by a bureaucracy over which you have no control.
Britain is on the fast track toward making that a way of life, not just in airports, but in all public places. And, from there, they will bring it into people’s homes. Once legitimized in Europe, the “land of the free” is certain to follow suit. The idea that government control over people’s everyday lives, in order to be a real threat, must take on a particular look as spelled out by history or some work of fiction, is so ludicrous that it’s stunning that anyone would even suggest it.
I just dropped my wife off at the airport this morning. We walked into an almost empty airport, walked directly up to the ticket counter, checked her bag, and then proceeded up the escalator toward the gates. There, in what might have otherwise been a nearly vacant terminal, was a long zigzag line of people winding back and forth as people patiently waited their turn to get through the security screening. Under the watchful eye of the TSA, you don’t dare tell a joke or make any disparaging remarks about how slow and inefficient they are. You stand there, making the effort to look carefree, nonthreatening, and most of all, respectful. You sense that you are trying to pass a test based entirely on the subtleties of your behavior. Your entire day, if not your entire trip depends on whether just one of these “screeners” singles you out for special treatment. After you’re through, you breath a sigh of relief. You’ve made it past the one hurdle of your expedition ruled entirely by a bureaucracy over which you have no control.
Britain is on the fast track toward making that a way of life, not just in airports, but in all public places. And, from there, they will bring it into people’s homes. Once legitimized in Europe, the “land of the free” is certain to follow suit. The idea that government control over people’s everyday lives, in order to be a real threat, must take on a particular look as spelled out by history or some work of fiction, is so ludicrous that it’s stunning that anyone would even suggest it.
Nov 22, 2009, 11:21 am
#371
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Houston
Posts: 8,956
That sounds to me like it only effects someone who HAS an ID in his pocket but does refuse to show it, hence the term willfully.
I would interpret it that if someone states he forgot his ID at home or whatever else plausible excuse the he can enter the sterile area after additional security measurements aka secondary screening.
I would interpret it that if someone states he forgot his ID at home or whatever else plausible excuse the he can enter the sterile area after additional security measurements aka secondary screening.
Nov 22, 2009, 11:29 am
#372
Join Date: May 2008
Location: BOS
Programs: TSA TSO
Posts: 455
(The last two are my own creations...)
Nov 22, 2009, 12:10 pm
#373
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Seat 1A, Juice pretty much everywhere, Mucci des Coins Exotiques
Posts: 34,339
Nov 22, 2009, 12:13 pm
#374
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 1,439
cross-reference related FT posts
I was randomly browsing the Burbank Airport website when I came across this notice:
In that it links to a TSA Press Release...
http://www.tsa.gov/press/happenings/...uirements.shtm
TSA I.D. Requirements Now in Effect at Checkpoint
As of June 21, 2008, the Transportation Security Administration will deny access to the secure area of airports to passengers who willfully refuse to provide identification at the security checkpoint.
Click here for more information
Click here for more information on acceptable forms of identification at TSA.gov
As of June 21, 2008, the Transportation Security Administration will deny access to the secure area of airports to passengers who willfully refuse to provide identification at the security checkpoint.
Click here for more information
Click here for more information on acceptable forms of identification at TSA.gov
http://www.tsa.gov/press/happenings/...uirements.shtm
- 2008-04-08: Article:No ID needed to board plane
- 2008-05-01: new info from TSA re: airlines requesting ID
- 2008-05-01: does the law/courts say ID is not required to...
- 2008-06-06: Starting June 21: Refuse to Show ID, No Entry to Sterile Area
- 2008-06-09: Actually, it looks like you can still fly without ID
- 2008-06-11: TSA blog addresses the new airport ID rule
- 2008-06-20: TSA says new airport ID rule is not about control
- 2008-06-22: No ID - Reports from the Field
- 2008-06-23: Forget ID after 6/21: expect invasive ?s including political affiliation
- 2008-11-19: Are you kidding me: No ID
- 2009-05-01: What is the ID Policy?
- 2009-05-27: TSA SOP re: airport ID requirements provided to IDP via FOIA request
- 2009-07-20: Flying with expired license
- 2009-07-28: Do kids with seats (age 2-10) need ID?
- 2009-08-04: Expired Drivers licence + Temporary One -Can I fly?
- 2009-08-10: Has anyone had a problem without photo ID at the gate of Jetblue at JFK and MCO?
Nov 22, 2009, 2:08 pm
#375
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: where the chile is hot
Programs: AA,RR,NW,Delta ,UA,CO
Posts: 41,714
Phil, I know you have to be cautious about what you post here, but I'm curious about your friend's status. Was there any substantive legal reason given for asking him to leave the airport? I take it that TSA had nothing to do with it.