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-   -   [Master Thread] Further Route Resumptions? (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/cathay-pacific-cathay/2152503-master-thread-further-route-resumptions.html)

majorpuppy Nov 20, 2024 1:49 am


Originally Posted by Reply1984 (Post 36684001)
IMO it’s still the willingness of AC to deploy more capacity on China.

They admitted that the transatlantic routes did not perform well several months ago and at the same time rumors came that Canada would allow more flights to China.

I will say the next round of flight addition will happen when AC would like to cut more transatlantic flights.

The same would apply to the US-China market.

I think it was pretty obvious when AC instantly resumed services to PEK and added flights to PVG once the ban was lifted, they are willing to fly to china, in the sacrifice of flights to HKG in the same time.

so CX wants to keep up the huge mainland china and asia transit traffic by increasing frequencies to really high in transpacific. though I think CX can also expand in Africa or other European markets as well.

brunos Nov 20, 2024 3:06 am


Originally Posted by NZflyer777 (Post 36684094)
So really by August next year.
apart from Rome, Adelaide, Seattle ,DC,EWR, Dublin, Copenhagen and Tel Aviv.

CX is back at pre covid long haul capacity?

CX is certainly not at pre-protest/covid capacity.
Since 2018, according to Planespotter, they have scrapped 3 772 and stored/preserved (whatever it means) 2. They have returned to lessor 16 77W.
CX had deliveries of some A350, but that ended in December 2023 and no new longhaul plane on the horizon.
Next deliveries will be in 2026 (and probably later given the delays and many important customers waiting) for 77X, and 2028 (if no delay) for A330-900.
Hard to see how they can add more destinations and increase Canada without further reducing their European capacity, which is much down compared to pre-covid.
I know, some posters will point to an increase in the number of pilots. But that will be only marginal without the planes to fly, especially the 21 77X that keeps being delayed.
Also Hong Kong must accept that there will be less demand compared to 2018.

Reply1984 Nov 20, 2024 5:07 am


Originally Posted by brunos (Post 36684353)
CX is certainly not at pre-protest/covid capacity.
Since 2018, according to Planespotter, they have scrapped 3 772 and stored/preserved (whatever it means) 2. They have returned to lessor 16 77W.
CX had deliveries of some A350, but that ended in December 2023 and no new longhaul plane on the horizon.
Next deliveries will be in 2026 (and probably later given the delays and many important customers waiting) for 77X, and 2028 (if no delay) for A330-900.
Hard to see how they can add more destinations and increase Canada without further reducing their European capacity, which is much down compared to pre-covid.
I know, some posters will point to an increase in the number of pilots. But that will be only marginal without the planes to fly, especially the 21 77X that keeps being delayed.
Also Hong Kong must accept that there will be less demand compared to 2018.

The difference is not that huge in terms of long haul fleet.

By the end of 18, CX operated 52 B77W, 22 A359 and 8 A35K.
Now CX operates 36 B77W, 30 A359 and 18 A35K.

Yes there are 16 less B77W, but don’t forget these 8 more A359 and 10 more A35K. Even with the current schedule of 2 more B77W returning to the lessor, the scale of CX’s long haul fleet is still comparable to that in 2018.

You can argue that A359 carries fewer passengers, but CX can still reach a similar level of frequency to long haul destinations of 2018.

lixiaojuventus Nov 20, 2024 7:00 am


Originally Posted by Reply1984 (Post 36684472)
The difference is not that huge in terms of long haul fleet.

By the end of 18, CX operated 52 B77W, 22 A359 and 8 A35K.
Now CX operates 36 B77W, 30 A359 and 18 A35K.

Yes there are 16 less B77W, but don’t forget these 8 more A359 and 10 more A35K. Even with the current schedule of 2 more B77W returning to the lessor, but the scale of CX’s long haul fleet is still comparable to that in 2018.

You can argue that A359 carries fewer passengers, but CX can still reach a similar level of frequency to long haul destinations of 2018.

Interesting notes. Thanks! Do we know what happens if the 21 777-9 aircraft arrive? I guess some of the 77W will leave by then? What will the total number of long-haul aircraft be?

Reply1984 Nov 20, 2024 7:10 am


Originally Posted by lixiaojuventus (Post 36684654)
Interesting notes. Thanks! Do we know what happens if the 21 777-9 aircraft arrive? I guess some of the 77W will leave by then? What will the total number of long-haul aircraft be?

CX is scheduled to return all leased B77Ws to lessors, with returning 2 in 2025 and 4 in 2026, and operating the left 30 B77Ws with Aria suites. But this is based on 2 B779s arriving in 2025, which is not the case anymore.

CX said previously that they could extend the lease of some B77Ws in case of any delivery delay of the B779s. We may know the latest fleet schedule next March in the annual financial results release.

csardas Nov 20, 2024 7:21 am

I also found all SFO/LAX flights increase to daily service from May 2025.
3 times daily

csardas Nov 20, 2024 7:29 am


Originally Posted by majorpuppy (Post 36681887)
18 weekly to YYZ and 17 weekly to YVR is honestly insane. focusing on Canada instead of the US can prevent competition with other asian carriers who doesn't fly too much to Canada, so its a good move in my opinion, not to mention china and Canada has lifted flight restrictions so this might be to keep cathays already dominant position in canada

YYZ/YVR schedule comes with a combination of a daily service, a 5-6 weekly and a 3-4 weekly. Maybe there is a potential pattern of the CANADA passengers.

Reply1984 Nov 20, 2024 8:05 pm


Originally Posted by majorpuppy (Post 36684268)
I think it was pretty obvious when AC instantly resumed services to PEK and added flights to PVG once the ban was lifted, they are willing to fly to china, in the sacrifice of flights to HKG in the same time.

so CX wants to keep up the huge mainland china and asia transit traffic by increasing frequencies to really high in transpacific. though I think CX can also expand in Africa or other European markets as well.

It could also hint that CX may not rush to add new destinations in Canada. I guess they will try to boost their new CX820/821 and CX814/815 to daily service first.


CX820 HKG-YYZ 0240 - 0545 1346
CX821 YYZ-HKG 1035-1405 (+1) 1346
CX814 HKG-YVR 1034 - 0730 135
CX815 YVR-HKG 0955 -1420 135

TomYoung Nov 20, 2024 8:40 pm


Originally Posted by Reply1984 (Post 36684472)
The difference is not that huge in terms of long haul fleet.

By the end of 18, CX operated 52 B77W, 22 A359 and 8 A35K.
Now CX operates 36 B77W, 30 A359 and 18 A35K.

Yes there are 16 less B77W, but don’t forget these 8 more A359 and 10 more A35K. Even with the current schedule of 2 more B77W returning to the lessor, the scale of CX’s long haul fleet is still comparable to that in 2018.

You can argue that A359 carries fewer passengers, but CX can still reach a similar level of frequency to long haul destinations of 2018.

The long haul fleet has been impacted by flights to Australia which used to be predominantly A330s but now employ long haul birds. The A330 fleet has been reduced substantially from 54 in 2019 to some 40 active now.

moondog Nov 20, 2024 9:31 pm


Originally Posted by Reply1984 (Post 36686164)
It could also hint that CX may not rush to add new destinations in Canada. I guess they will try to boost their new CX820/821 and CX814/815 to daily service first.

They should try to (more completely) address demand in the areas people want to go and/or offer good connectivity to elsewhere first.

Reply1984 Nov 20, 2024 9:57 pm


Originally Posted by TomYoung (Post 36686215)
The long haul fleet has been impacted by flights to Australia which used to be predominantly A330s but now employ long haul birds. The A330 fleet has been reduced substantially from 54 in 2019 to some 40 active now.

Almost all of those retired A330 were retired directly from KA, equipped with regional cabin. It will not materially affect CX's long haul fleet.

11 A330s were retired from KA.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...05087138a7.png

3 A330s with recliners were retired from CX. Only 1 A330 with flat bed were returned to the lessor in 2019. This should match with A359 delivery at that time.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...f65223bea2.png

starvelk Nov 20, 2024 10:24 pm

Previously they put A330 with flatbeds to Australia, but now use A350s. The 330s are reassigned onto regional missions.

brunos Nov 21, 2024 2:07 am


Originally Posted by Reply1984 (Post 36686302)
Almost all of those retired A330 were retired directly from KA, equipped with regional cabin. It will not materially affect CX's long haul fleet.

11 A330s were retired from KA.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...05087138a7.png

3 A330s with recliners were retired from CX. Only 1 A330 with flat bed were returned to the lessor in 2019. This should match with A359 delivery at that time.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...f65223bea2.png

It is great to chat with someone who uses data rather than personal opinions. Thank you.

Still, the point raised by TomYoung has some validity It goes back to the question of to whom KA routes have been reallocated, and to the question of CX vs CX group..
I thought that several of KA routes where they used A330s had been initially taken over by CX and the planes transferred to CX.
Of course, UO has taken over many routes and operate with narrow bodies rather than A330s.
But it seems to me that the allocation of A350s and 77Ws to the Australian routes does reduce the availability to operate longhaul to NA and Europe.


Arbeysix Nov 21, 2024 2:55 am

Supposition only but my guess is that replacement of 330s on Aus routes reflects several factors: (i) need to offer a product which can keep up with the competition. Aus routes are 8+ hours so at the upper end of med haul and a lot of pax are connecting to LH destinations (ii) need to train pilots in particular given shortages of 777 crew. Operating these to Aus allows the aircraft to turn more frequently than US/Europe; and (iii) the significant freight business ex-Aus. 777 and 350 can simply lift a lot more.

wadia13 Nov 21, 2024 4:32 am


Originally Posted by moondog (Post 36686275)
They should try to (more completely) address demand in the areas people want to go and/or offer good connectivity to elsewhere first.

I agree, but what are the exact places that people want to go and/or offer connectivity to elsewhere that are currently unserved or underserved (from the perspective of CX and/or Hong Kong)? You ask 10 people & may get 10 different answers.


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